BOI Threads and Nagative Posts in them

[scaledverts]

After some discussions with other members, I decided to cross post this thread in the feedback forum along with its original location, HELL (here) so that everyone can see it and post their thoughts and opinions. Feel free to throw out your opinions here for all members to see.

I have a small rant to post about because it has been driving me nuts lately and see it more and more often.

Begin Small Rant....
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Is it just me or does it seem like the BOI is having more and more posts that are attacking the thread starter for being inexperienced or gullible? I have seen a number of posts in the last few months that have basically come out and said "you are in this situation because you are a stupid noob." How exactly does this help anything? Sure, sure sometimes the OP needs to be shown the error of their ways so that they can learn not to do it again but this can be done without the overt personal attacks and snide comments, in my opinion.

Keep in mind that I am NOT talking about the threads where the OP turns out to be the bad guy. I am talking about the posts where the OP has a legitimate problem that they are bringing to the communities attention via the BOI. After explaining their situation, they are told "no kidding you are getting screwed over that deal is too good to be true." What exactly does this add to the discussion or aid in reaching a solution? Basically to me these posts read "hahaha sucks to be you, if you knew as much as I do you would have known better."

It just seems like there are more and more negative "personal type" posts on the BOI in general. I know everyone posts negative comments every now and then, I know I have before, but it seems like the proportion of negative comments directed toward the OP's lack of experience is increasing recently. I don't really think comments of this nature add anything productive to the discussion. Furthermore, I think they shown an inherent immaturity in posters that repeatedly do it.
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[sharpfang]

After some discussions with other members, I decided to cross post this thread in the feedback forum along with its original location, HELL (here) so that everyone can see it and post their thoughts and opinions. Feel free to throw out your opinions here for all members to see.

I have a small rant to post about because it has been driving me nuts lately and see it more and more often.

Begin Small Rant....
*
*
Is it just me or does it seem like the BOI is having more and more posts that are attacking the thread starter for being inexperienced or gullible? I have seen a number of posts in the last few months that have basically come out and said "you are in this situation because you are a stupid noob." How exactly does this help anything? Sure, sure sometimes the OP needs to be shown the error of their ways so that they can learn not to do it again but this can be done without the overt personal attacks and snide comments, in my opinion.

Keep in mind that I am NOT talking about the threads where the OP turns out to be the bad guy. I am talking about the posts where the OP has a legitimate problem that they are bringing to the communities attention via the BOI. After explaining their situation, they are told "no kidding you are getting screwed over that deal is too good to be true." What exactly does this add to the discussion or aid in reaching a solution? Basically to me these posts read "hahaha sucks to be you, if you knew as much as I do you would have known better."

It just seems like there are more and more negative "personal type" posts on the BOI in general. I know everyone posts negative comments every now and then, I know I have before, but it seems like the proportion of negative comments directed toward the OP's lack of experience is increasing recently. I don't really think comments of this nature add anything productive to the discussion. Furthermore, I think they shown an inherent immaturity in posters that repeatedly do it.
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Especially Scaley1, when I post an Ad this morning on Fauna, and in that sales ad - a member can chime in w/ antagonistic aspects, and Do Not buy from comments, even after Mods notified, and it is Admitted that the member: John Apple, has not ever completed a transaction w/ me, and initial choice to Not sell to me, what was agreed, was over a Year & a 1/2 ago.....

I like to give good comments, regularly, like: "Nice Pix - or GL w/ those", etc.
Not - "Do not buy from this guy, So-N-so says:"

All BS heresay gossip & slandering....just cause 5 outta 88 Reviews on another site were "POOR" for me ~ that does Not mean it is FAIR to side-bust my Post for a sale - w/ comments....

Do I follow around all sellers that I dislike, yet Not, due to ever having BOUGHT from person, to testify knowledge of Dealings = nope

And I would not expect any site to ALLOW such slandering - or a REVIEW of a member, that business w/ directly, has not taken place, especially when, on this site itself, he has declared essentially in a thread, Jason's a good guy I'd buy from.

Not 2 mention......when discussion took place, was over a year and a 1/2 ago.......admitted no hard feelin's, yet shows there is 18 months later Classy site logisticic allowence & dynamic

I have never placed a HERESAY review on a member, of ANY forum on Internet - it quite frankly, is Not allowed on any I am aware of.
It's just that = "heresay".

I am Not impressed w/ the Forums chosen "Moderation" of, either - way to let members have-@-it - reminds me of "Critical Bill" {he still around ? LOL} - you know - the "Slap-Chopper"
Even he was more reasonable

Consider your Sources members, when doing Business, and all else - Jason J. Brown

 

[scaledverts]

That is not even close to the point of this thread. So congrats on totally sending it off topic already . The idea isn't to call out specific members or even specific posts but to point out that posts such as the ones I described have no place here in my opinion. Furthermore, the point isn't to call out moderators or anyone else for that matter.

I am Not impressed w/ the Forums chosen "Moderation" of, either - way to let members have-@-it - reminds me of "Critical Bill" {he still around ? LOL} - you know - the "Slap-Chopper"
Even he was more reasonable

And this comment has no place in any forum.

Now, to get back to the point of this thread........

 

[hhmoore]

Apples and oranges....but this is certainly no surprise. I'm hoping to avoid derailing this thread by addressing your posts and PMs here, so I'm gone for the night. The only part that saddens me is that I'm half expecting you to persist enough to get yourself booted in my absence. I'd almost get a glimmer of enjoyment from clicking that button; but, frankly, I'd much rather see you get a clue and a grip.

ttfn

 

[sharpfang]

And there U have it! Agree w/ or be Argued w/

Moderators, expressing LOVE of & w/ their Cyber-Powers

Bunch of keyboard cowards on the Internet

Reviews should stay between parties the Business/Transaction was between, IMO & others.

Reviews should Not be from 3rd parties -or- contain "heresay" either, IMO.

But I guess that was too far from your point Scaled1 - thanx for showing how nice, U are also

"Point is": Why all the Hate, right ? Well there ya go - even the Mods spread it on this site.

Here is a Button too! *click*

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I am Not impressed w/ the Forums chosen "Moderation" of, either - way to let members have-@-it - reminds me of "Critical Bill" {he still around ? LOL} - you know - the "Slap-Chopper"

Chuck passed away some time ago. As for the rest of your post I would ask you to read the rules of this forum.

Criticism is welcome, but abusive antagonism is not.

You have about crossed that line and I will be happy to send you on your way!

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Moderators, expressing LOVE of & w/ their Cyber-Powers

Bunch of keyboard cowards on the Internet

Reviews should stay between parties the Business/Transaction was between, IMO & others.

Reviews should Not be from 3rd parties -or- contain "heresay" either, IMO.

But I guess that was too far from your point Scaled1 - thanx for showing how nice, U are also

"Point is": Why all the Hate, right ? Well there ya go - even the Mods spread it on this site.

Here is a Button too! *click*

Didn't see this one yet. Take a hike.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I am Not impressed w/ the Forums chosen "Moderation" of, either

I'm not real impressed with you as a member either. I guess we are even. When you get back from your suspension, I would suggest you be less antagonistic about your criticism. The staff here will not take the abuse. . If not, you can be done here permanently.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Sorry Kyle, Harald,

Kyle,
You have some good points. The best thing to do is voice your own opinion on the subject in the threads. Maybe others will follow or see your point of view.

Unless a rule is specifically broken in the replies people are going to be free to express their views. If the starter of thread is being targeted unfairly from your point of view and posters aren't violating any rules, the best course of action is for people with opposing points to join the thread and express it.

Deciding who is right and who is wrong isn't the sites job. The members decide that individually. It's also member participation here and people should speak up if they think others are wrong or being shortsighted.

If you and others address it, you might see a change to what happens in posts. I to have seen some of those posts. A lot of people do mimic others.

I noticed a few things as well that seems to be more of a habit from some when someone starts a thread that hasn't been here before. I'll address it as a individual not a moderator when I see it. Hope you do the same. This forum is only going to be what the members make it. So get out there and participate.

Just my individual opinion.

 

[fuzzylogix]

i'm going to have to side with kyle on this one. i actually posted a response on one of the boi threads regarding the same thing. new people to the site are going to see posters getting jumped for bringing forth a legitimate boi complaint, and be hesitant to start one themselves if something bad happens. the more people we have here that stand up to the scammers or have the balls to call out someone when it all goes wrong, the better off our hobby will be. by telling someone its their fault for being scammed, all you are doing is detering other people to come forth with their issues. it doesn't matter if the person starting the thread was told he could get $100,000 worth of snakes for 10 bucks. if he pays the seller the 10 bucks and doesn't get what he was promised, the seller is a bad guy. period. we all started somewhere and we were all "noobs". we more than likely all had our moments as well. i thought as reptile lovers our "job" was to spread awareness, educate others, care for our animals, and keep our hobby honest. not look down on people like you know everything there is to know. i can assure you that you don't.

 

[scaledverts]

Sorry Kyle, Harald,

Kyle,
You have some good points. The best thing to do is voice your own opinion on the subject in the threads. Maybe others will follow or see your point of view.

Unless a rule is specifically broken in the replies people are going to be free to express their views. If the starter of thread is being targeted unfairly from your point of view and posters aren't violating any rules, the best course of action is for people with opposing points to join the thread and express it.

Deciding who is right and who is wrong isn't the sites job. The members decide that individually. It's also member participation here and people should speak up if they think others are wrong or being shortsighted.

If you and others address it, you might see a change to what happens in posts. I to have seen some of those posts. A lot of people do mimic others.

I noticed a few things as well that seems to be more of a habit from some when someone starts a thread that hasn't been here before. I'll address it as a individual not a moderator when I see it. Hope you do the same. This forum is only going to be what the members make it. So get out there and participate.

Just my individual opinion.

I agree. I don't think that posts of these type can or really even should be moderated, infractions issued, etc. I completely agree that posters on this site are, and should, be allowed to voice their own opinion no matter how much others may disagree with it. In response to a post I feel is completely unnecessary, I will often post my feelings about the negativity in the post. There is a fine line that I am weary of where the thread can be derailed because of a post in response to another members negative post.

What I want to get across is that we as a community of reptile keepers do not condone this type of purely bashing and spiteful posting when someone is simply trying to share their experiences. Perhaps I am in the minority here, but I would hope note . These are the kinds of conversations I think we need to put out there for people to see what is and is not acceptable among the fauna community. I think that some of these negative posts may be cut out because people understand what we hope to accomplish by posting in BOI threads.

The odd thing about this whole situation, and the reason I posted the thread to start with, is that it seems the negative/personal/spiteful posts have increased in recent months. Even in my short time here I have noticed that there are more and more of these types of posts.

I also don't want to give the impression that I think all posts should be sunshine, puppy dogs, and rainbows. Let's face it, we all have different opinions. I think the manner in which we express those opinions tells a lot about us.

 

[Lucille]

:

What I want to get across is that we as a community of reptile keepers do not condone this type of purely bashing and spiteful posting when someone is simply trying to share their experiences.

I totally agree with this. If someone looking for info ventures forth and is squashed down, they won't post again. And ultimately, it's the critters that suffer if we can't help each other.

: it seems the negative/personal/spiteful posts have increased in recent months. Even in my short time here I have noticed that there are more and more of these types of posts.
.

I hope that if this is indeed a trend, that it can be reversed. There was a time some years ago where spiteful posts and personal vendettas seemed to me like they were a real problem, and an effort to clean up the site made it better and a more welcome place.

 

[SamanthaJane13]

After some discussions with other members, I decided to cross post this thread in the feedback forum along with its original location, HELL (here) so that everyone can see it and post their thoughts and opinions. Feel free to throw out your opinions here for all members to see.

I have a small rant to post about because it has been driving me nuts lately and see it more and more often.

Begin Small Rant....
*
*
Is it just me or does it seem like the BOI is having more and more posts that are attacking the thread starter for being inexperienced or gullible? I have seen a number of posts in the last few months that have basically come out and said "you are in this situation because you are a stupid noob." How exactly does this help anything? Sure, sure sometimes the OP needs to be shown the error of their ways so that they can learn not to do it again but this can be done without the overt personal attacks and snide comments, in my opinion.

Keep in mind that I am NOT talking about the threads where the OP turns out to be the bad guy. I am talking about the posts where the OP has a legitimate problem that they are bringing to the communities attention via the BOI. After explaining their situation, they are told "no kidding you are getting screwed over that deal is too good to be true." What exactly does this add to the discussion or aid in reaching a solution? Basically to me these posts read "hahaha sucks to be you, if you knew as much as I do you would have known better."

It just seems like there are more and more negative "personal type" posts on the BOI in general. I know everyone posts negative comments every now and then, I know I have before, but it seems like the proportion of negative comments directed toward the OP's lack of experience is increasing recently. I don't really think comments of this nature add anything productive to the discussion. Furthermore, I think they shown an inherent immaturity in posters that repeatedly do it.
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I definitely agree.

I see it more and more, and it adds nothing to the BOI post.

 

[metaldad904]

I'm a newb to the site but not to the hobby and one of the main reasons why i remained a "lurker" for quite awhile was from seeing all the constant negativity and bashing. This ranged from BOI posts, classifieds and even when a newb would ask a simple question. While sometimes if a stupid question is asked you must wonder if they have any clue what they're doing and sometimes feel the need to point it out it doesn't really seem to help in the long run. I would definitely point out a mistake but try my best not to be rude or come off like i was attacking them. I know that if I feel like i'm being attacked I probably wouldn't listen to a word of advice that person were to give me just b/c of the way I was treated. One of the most frustrating things to me is how it seems a LOT of members think they are the end all/be all to reptile knowledge and act as if they know everything and that their opinion is the only way to go. In the end, this hobby is still relatively new compared to others & we're constantly finding out new information about husbandry, species and so forth and even if you think you've mastered everything there is to know that isn't necessarily the case. All you can do is voice your opinion (but in a tactful way) and hope for the best.

All in all i love this forum, there are a lot of really cool people on here offering a wealth of knowledge to help fellow herpers...so in the interest of keeping the peace and furthering the success of Fauna let's all just try to take a chill pill and try to be helpful in a constructive manner.

 

[hhmoore]

As Dennis stated, from a moderation standpoint this can be a difficult situation....we've tried to cut back on a lot of the negativity; but, people are figuring out ways of doing it within the rules. Unfortunately, the backlash that many of us would see as beneficial, has the result of being disruptive to the thread (whether it be the BOI, or the classifieds).

Kyle - thanks for bringing this thread here. It IS a topic that belongs out in the open; and I hope that as people continue to post their responses, everybody that reads will pause for just a moment to think about why we feel this way.

 

[Talkenlate04]

I get where the op of this thread is coming from, but at the same time not so much. I have seen far to many threads started in the BOI out of knee jerk reaction instead of waiting a bit and seeing things through first. People do have lives outside this site and the animal hobby in general and sometimes those lives interrupt a deal. I think sometimes people forget that.

That in mind, there are also legitimate bad sellers out there. The BOI serves as a great warning to the rest of the community about a specific individual who is doing bad business. BUT if you have a bad deal for heavens sake come to the table with some evidence. I have only had to start one BOI since I have been a member, and I will admit I was a bit nervous doing it because I have seen how other threads have gone down and seen some backlash toward the Op, but I also took note that the Op in those cases almost always had huge holes in their stories, or they lacked sufficient evidence to be posting the thread. So I learned from what I had seen and came to the table barrels loaded and ready to rock and roll. In my case most outsiders to the deal sided with me,(not that that matters imo) and in the end the seller made good on fixing the problem largely because of the pressure created by a proper BOI and public perception created by my facts.

I guess it all comes down to how you approach things, and everyone will approach a bad situation differently. I am not saying that being ready with evidence will fix all the BOI problems, but it sure is a hell of a start.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Thinking about it more, The only disagreement I may have is with the "increase" part. More so, different criticisms of thread starters and posters seem to come in waves.

Perhaps it is because I look at it from a longer time period. Taking into consideration of what was allowed in previous versions of the BOI before 2002 then 2002- 2005, 2005-2008, and the present day BOI. I would make a strong case that things are actually more civil overall. Except for a brief time we had a very strict moderation period on the BOI. We relaxed it some because some very bad people went unchecked because criticism was limited to much. Before that, it was very relaxed and some of the things you have pointed out were actually more rampant then.

I think we have found a very good position to be in now. We still allow the criticism, but we restrict how it is expressed. The verbally abusive language is no longer tolerated but people can still express themselves. They just need to craft their thoughts in a way that doesn't violate the rules.

I do see what you are talking about and some are very good a flying right at the line of that rule but I don't necessarily see it as a increase but a shift in people expressing the same points by what they see others do.

For instance, and this is just an example.

You have someone new to the site that posts a BOI topic. They post the situation and give their account. At this point they haven't posted any emails just stating their position.

What I would do in the past would be to read the statements and if warranted, I would state to them, "Hey, would you mind posting all the emails so we can see what you are talking about? It will help prove your case."

If the answer was NO, I would state that's fine, proof isn't required but if you wish people to support your position you should provide sufficient evidence .

People would see that kind of questioning and it will get shorter and shorter to new people staring threads.

Somehow it now ends up like this, A new poster starts a thread in the same fashion and the first question or statement is

Post the proof or nobody will believe you. How dare you post this without emails. Or, it's required to post proof, or it is required to post emails, to back up your claims. Which isn't a fact that they are required but it most certainly helps your case.

We don't need to moderate the differences in style. Members can effectively do that by others seeing there is a better way to respond. Basically, the member base sees how people respond to threads and mimic the same behavior and it becomes habit.

Sometimes, and it is like all things more seasoned members get short with people when they see the same things over and over again. It's the same as new people asking the same questions that have been asked so many times in the past. Or someone new that thinks they have a great idea about this site or something else that might have been discussed or tried many times over. Have to admit, it can be frustrating and you can forget what may be old news to you isn't for someone else. They just didn't think to search for the information.

As far as mistakes newbs make, I think Harald made the best point. Point it out but don't leave them blooded. The best way for that to happen is for more posters doing the same. I don't want to censor people to the point that the BOI isn't able to sort out the shaft from the facts. I'm not interested in coddling thread starters or people responding either but, I do think sometimes some go overboard and at the same time aren't violating the rules.

You can insert any issue, Buying unbelievable package deals or individual animals. Being scammed by Nigerians and the like. I think it's good to point those problems out for the benefit of all but it does go overboard sometimes.

The best course is to reinforce appropriate responses and not those that go overboard.

It's not anything new. It's actually the same balance Rich has tried to find here from the beginning. I think Rich has found a very good balance now with not having the effectiveness of the BOI hampered with to strict moderation and at the same time having rules in place for overly abusive language. The rest should be up to all the members.

I also agree with Harald, just having this thread visible might have some looking at how they respond.

 

[Southern Wolf]

... and I will admit I was a bit nervous doing it because I have seen how other threads have gone down and seen some backlash toward the Op, but I also took note that the Op in those cases almost always had huge holes in their stories, or they lacked sufficient evidence to be posting the thread. So I learned from what I had seen and came to the table barrels loaded and ready to rock and roll.

This is the main key here. If you put everything about the deal out in the open and back up what you say with evidence... then the backlash against the OP is very minimal. Especially if the OP happens to be in the right.

If you have your ducks in a row and what you need to back up your side then the BOI really isn't that scary a place. Those that get called on the carpet are the ones that sling accusations and then dont back them up or cant back them up because they are false.

At that point.... that person deserves what they get. If you are going to accuse someone of something... then you dang sure better back it up.

Last year I had to make the hardest thread I ever have... and I had to make dang sure I had my facts straight because the accusations I was tossing around would have sunk me if I was wrong. I came to the table with undeniable proof to back up everything. There was no doubt when I got done laying everything out. Yes I caught some backlash, but it wasn't about my proof or lack of proof. That thread was "too hot for BOI" and it was in HELL.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

I've been around for a long time now. I've seen the positive and the negative sides of the reptile industry/hobby. I don't post here like I used to, not because I have nothing to say, I have plenty to say, however by the time I finished reading a thread and ready to post, it's been said at least 8 times by 8 different people.

For the new people, education is a wonderful tool. Read some of the older threads here. Dennis is right in the ever changing attitudes and posting styles of years past.

When I first joined here, I was afraid to post. I remember when the word "scumbag" got me fined and suspended. Several of us did back then and a thread in hell was started about it called "Scumbag" ahhh the good ol days!!

This site has been picked on and made fun of by other sites, however, when their luck finds them on the wrong side of a business deal, guess where they come? Yep right here to the good old BOI. It's the original, only place like it on the net, and a place that I still call home!

 

[WebSlave]

Yeah, we have been trying to make things better here, and this is the sort of resistance we typically get...

ARE YOU F**KING SERIOUS????? I STARTED MY POST WITH THE STATEMENT "I'm not trying to be rude..."

I said what other people didn't have the balls to say. Now I get reprimanded for it.....

That post should have been deleted once the op started throwing accusations out that weren't true. But I guess you've got the time to dock people points, not delete posts.

Good game.

Have a nice day.

Good lick with your site. From the looks of it you've got your hands full.

xxxxxxxxxx

Dear xxxxxxx,

You have received an infraction at FaunaClassifieds.

Reason: Borderline abusive post
-------
Please tone down your posting. You are expressing YOUR opinion about someone else's opinion. So there is no need to be rude about it.
-------

This infraction is worth 2 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

Original Post:

Pinworms or protozoa are often a culprit in this. The extremely small size of the bowel movement that caused this would seem to be more indicative of that than him being previously overfed, but who knows. Hopefully his meds will clear it up.

I'm not trying be rude... But, are you a vet? You are stating your opinion.... Which no one gives two turds about. We want facts. Facts about the issue at hand... Not what you think may have caused it or what your opinion is about the seller. The BOI is a place for facts... People misconstrue that so much.

You know what? We get it... You aren't happy. Now keep those thoughts to yourself and lets get on with the facts.

For instance. It's a fact that once an animal prolapses that there is a VERY high chance that it will happen again. You knew the animal had prolapsed once... It seems you also knew that the animal may arrive with mites. Neither of these issues stopped you from purchasing the animal. So please explain how that's the sellers fault? You purchased the animal willingly, knowing all these things. Your fault[PERIOD]

You should have done what he offered and just had the animal replaced. Once the animal isn't in your care it is no longer your problem to worry about. You seem to be CHOOSING to keep the animal, which means you must want to be responsible for the upcoming vet bills to boot.

By all means if I am wrong about any of this I can assure you I'll be the first to apologize.... but from what I've read and seen, this is spot on.

BTW - I hope that little retic pulls through!

All the best,
FaunaClassifieds

Which, of course, will likely escalate from here into a pissing contest. I referred this member to my other post in this section about how we perceive people who make these sorts of outbursts when they get infractions. I'm confident it will not be received well.......

In a nutshell, it appears that many people believe the rules here are just fine, except when it is applied to them. This has been the case from the very beginning on this site, and it is doubtful it will change in my lifetime.