BOI Ultimanium - What do you think?

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I really think this needs put to vote so that Rich has an even way of viewing how the members here feel...And these are the only options that I see available that don't put unneeded strain on Rich or his moderation staff.

 

[Lucille]

While our feelings are important, the bottom line is that there has to be enough money coming in to defend the site against lawsuits from those who challenge the BOI.

We can have polls and votes, but the fact is, there has to be funding or the BOI has to be closed.

Money talks.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Lucille, did you even read the poll options?

 

[Jerry_c_62]

The question I have is this. What can be done to make choice 1 in this poll go away as an option?

It seemed to me that when the BOI got shut down for a couple days there was a surge of people becoming contributing members. I am afraid though that that was a short lived response, Rich, Please Tell Me I Am Wrong. If it was just a short up-tick in new paid membership then the real problem is still there. I'm sure that was the point of Lucille's post.

I think the question that needs to be answered is, "What can we do, if anything, to help keep the BOI available by increasing financial support to this site"? If that question is not addressed then the only hope there is for the BOI is that Rich will sell Fauna and we all hope it continues to funcion basicly as it has up to this point. From what I have gotten from Rich's posts that is not very likely.

For myself the idea of offering free/discounted shipping on sales through the classifieds to Contributing Members was something that I thought might encourage someone to join. Or donating material or animals to a fund raiser as was brought up in another post both seemed like good ideas, maybe not great ideas, but at least something I could do.

As to the poll options, I would have to vote twice. One time each for choice 2 & 3. Since I may only have one vote I want to save it till I put a little more thought into it.

 

[WebSlave]

Yeah, there was a flurry of new and renewed memberships. Haven't counted them, but I'm guessing about 30. I expect now that the BOI is opened again, I may still get one every day or three.

As for the poll, something needs to be made clear. Option three will only be temporary. If the number of paid memberships still does not support the financial liabilities of the BOI, the BOI will remain open ONLY to paid memberships for one year when I implement that change. I would be assuming that there will not be any flurry of new paid memberships at that time, of course. My guess is most people would think they were throwing good money after bad if the BOI was going to go away anyway. But in any event, that 1 year grace period will be to sort of pay back those members who are donating to keep the BOI open. At that time I will try to make it clear that the BOI is effectively dead and will be permanently closed one year after that date. The reason for this is because the liability of the BOI does not go away when it's access is restricted to paid members only. Trust me, I will not be real keen on extending my liability even that long, but I would want to be fair about this. It would be completely senseless of me to retain that liability for the sake of the 300 or so members who might be paid members. Does anyone really think that someone catching wind of a bad guy post about them in the BOI and being incensed and motivated enough to sue over it would be stymied by a $25 membership fee to read it to gather up evidence for the suit?

Seriously folks, no one would hate to see the BOI go away more than I would after all the hard work I have put into keeping it alive. It has been a hard and rocky road from the beginning. But I have to be realistic about my future, and this is just what I see in that virtual crystal ball of mine.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Rich, how many Contributors do you estimate needing for the BOI to sustain itself for the Contributors?

 

[WebSlave]

I would start feeling more comfortable about this with 600 to 800 paid memberships. This site can be operating in the black with much less, but that is only without taking into consideration the risks posed by the BOI.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

That's less then what I estimated. I was thinking along the lines of 1,000. I think it helps to have a goal in mind when considering these things.

 

[WebSlave]

That's less then what I estimated. I was thinking along the lines of 1,000. I think it helps to have a goal in mind when considering these things.

With us only getting 1200 to maybe 1400 registered members checking in each day, if my goal had to be 1,000 then I wouldn't even bother thinking it were a feasible number and beginning shutting down the BOI right now.

But I want it to be clear, that at the level I am projecting, that will be enough for ONE lawsuit, more than likely. The defense will likely drain the reserve I already have and it would take a few years at that 600 to 800 level to replenish. So after the lawsuit, even after winning, that would likely mean the end of the BOI unless there was a HUGE increase in paid memberships to build the war chest.

Besides the money issue, having to wear a suit and a tie again to go to court after so many years without, would definitely put me in a bad frame of mind....

 

[Serafim]

Maybe setting it would help to allow for a larger donation when you are paying for a membership. For example Contributor is 25.00 But I have an extra 40 bucks. So I would actually pay 15.00 extra. Can this be a feature that you could add rich. Like setting a minimum but allowing users to pay more. Seems that may add a few extra bucks.

 

[Lucille]

So after the lawsuit, even after winning, that would likely mean the end of the BOI unless there was a HUGE increase in paid memberships to build the war chest.

So a couple of bad guys working together and filing at the same time could take down the BOI.

I have my heart in this for you, that the BOI might succeed and continue, but my head says that it is going to be a monumental task. Had you decided to retire any other time than the worst economic downturn in 30 years, it would be a bit easier, but many people are out of work and holding onto their pennies.

I think many times people don't realize what they have until it's gone. And once the BOI is gone, it will be hard to revive. Once you and Connie hit the beaches and relax and finally have some time to yourselves, the drudgery and work involved in a BOI II isn't going to be very appealling; and although I do not doubt that some will try to invent versions of a BOI Underground, the spam, inevitable infighting, and lack of financial support will grind those efforts to a halt because few have the internal resources and command the kind of respect the Big Meanie wields.

But the seed is planted. Many have heard of the BOI, and a generation ago buyers might have simply sent off money in response to a reptile ad. The BOI changed the way we think of such purchases, and at some level many will compare notes among themselves about sellers, and that will help at least some steer clear of the scammers.

I will, as will many, help fight the good fight as I can, and hope, but the sheer weight of the economic equations make funding such a war chest, a daunting task.

 

[MedusaCoils]

How about setting a BOI donation button? So we can donate any amount we want, to support the BOI. Something that was seperate from the $25 contribution to the site.

 

[geckoprincess]

How about setting a BOI donation button? So we can donate any amount we want, to support the BOI. Something that was seperate from the $25 contribution to the site.

That is a Great idea! No telling how many members here are afraid of their own shadow let alone have the cohones to post in a boi thread. I really like this idea!

 

[snowgyre]

I realize that the BOI is a huge burden, not just financially, but because of the difficulty moderating it. The BOI is an invaluable tool, but I've been dismayed by the inherent negativity within posts by people other than the individual(s) involved in the transaction, be it good or bad. Is there a possibility that if the BOI can get enough funding to stay that we could think about restructuring it to prevent this kind of angsty trolling? The BOI has lost a lot of credibility with me personally, and I know I'm not alone in my disappointment. At its conception, the BOI was an incredible resource, but now I must sift through pages upon pages of noxious finger pointing before I can sift through the anger and see the story for myself.

I appreciate the monumental task that is placed upon the staff of Fauna to moderate the BOI, but I honestly can't put money towards something that has become essentially non-functional. If there is promise of dedicated and strict moderation to prevent trolling in the BOI, then perhaps myself and others would be more inclined to support it.

Honestly, if there wasn't so much slander and angst in the BOI, it would stand up much better in court if any lawsuits were filed and help you out in the end anyway. I would be more than happy to attend any brainstorming sessions if that would help! I really want the BOI to succeed, and please don't see this post as being pessimistic, but more along the line of a friendly suggestion from someone who has been using this site for years.

 

[RJK890]

There have been a few times that I ran a search on a person that I was considering having a transaction with, and found positive feedback on that person. That gave me a piece of mind about those transactions, and in one trade deal I was actually so comfortable that I shipped out on the same day as the OP.
There are also a handful of people that I would just as soon never deal with after reading the feedback from their customers, or after reading their own post's in other threads.
That is what I will miss about the BOI when it is gone.

However, the majority of post's on the BOI are nothing more than libel and opinionated arguing. In order to find actual feedback on someone you have to read through 1200 post's of insults and bickering between members.
There is definitely a clique mentality, and that is where the liability is, IMO.

Calm Down...
Don't get me wrong. I have been involved in some of the drama arguments, over the difference of opinion with a few members. Sometimes in threads that neither one, or any of us were involved in.
There is an entertainment quality to the BOI. It is an interactive soap opera, where almost anything goes.
The only problem is, the names are not changed to protect the innocent, so there is a risk involved.

If the BOI as we know it, does go away, maybe there could be a permanent place for comments on the trader rating and/or "Good Guy / Bad Guy" certificates. It could be for actual feedback from only those registered members that were involved in buy/sell/trade transactions, with other registered members.

You could make that be a part of the TOS that everybody agrees to in order to use this site. That way there is no liability for You and Connie.

Of course that would mean that sellers that choose to sell on KS and other websites, and not register here on Fauna, would not be able to have positive or negative feedback posted about them in the trader rating or "Good Guy / Bad Guy" certificate forums.
It would not weed out every scammer in the hobby / industry, but it would police the membership here on Fauna.

Having the reassurance of something like that may also encourage more people to purchase from the classifieds here on Fauna. I know that I am more comfortable dealing with those that have a public record.
That in itself may drive more sellers to register here on Fauna, and use the classified forums.

Without the liability of the BOI, paid membership could be more affordable,
(I know, it's only $25.) and mandatory after a 30 day trial period.

Before anybody chimes in about my missing coins, I would like to explain.
I was banned for 30 days almost one year ago and disagreed with that action.
As a result, I decided not to renew my membership for one year.
Childish? Maybe.
We vote with our money and I will be paying my dues shortly.

Whatever you decide, Good luck with your retirement Rich.

 

[snowgyre]

I don't know if this is what Robert was getting at, but the idea hit me while I was reading his post. What if, as part of Fauna membership terms, we include a clause that states that anyone who is a member of Fauna who buys or sells items, animals, etc. may be subject to review in the BOI? I realize that this will miss people who join and don't sell or buy anything, but the backbone of Fauna is it's classifieds section, so I think we'd capture a lot of people, so to speak. Also, people who disagree with those terms don't have to join Fauna at all, and those that do can't file a lawsuit when they've agreed to it in writing. I also think we need to encourage members to make more use of the buyer/seller feedback on the site, similar to how Ebay works.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Out of curiosity...Those that are suggesting these alternative methods for the BOI...What do you think should happen to the existing information available if Rich would choose to change how things are done? That information is invaluable and can't be replaced...But also leaves Rich open to law suits. Have you also thought of the limitations of vBulletin and the costs involved in custom coding the site to pull in the direction you are suggesting?

 

[snowgyre]

Custom coding? I was only suggesting we use what is already in place. We already have the user feedback system, and I think we should continue using it. I don't think changing the terms of service or encouraging the user feedback system (and incorporating the good guy/bad guy badges, which Fauna already does with approved sellers) will cost anything additional.

Dealing with the information already present in the BOI is much, much trickier. Optimally, I would go in there and delete all unnecessary posts, but that would be incredibly time consuming and frustrating. Perhaps what we can do instead is delete threads pertaining to buyers/sellers outside of Fauna in conjunction with the suggested edits to the terms of service, and keep the information there on existing Fauna members. Granted, the loophole in the system is that the old members who have a negative reputation could just withdraw their Fauna accounts or claim (rightly so) that the rules changed after they joined, so they're essentially grandfathered into the old rule system, and the information would be lost anyway.

So yeah, the old information is the liability, and I'm not sure what to do about it without a massive overhaul.

 

[Shadera]

Some of the biggest scumbags out there don't advertise on or are banned from Fauna, so under those thoughts their threads would be deleted and they'd be exempt. If it's going to be limited to Fauna only, the good guy certs could cover that, though those are a pain in Rich's hind-end just because of the time sink. He's mentioned on more than one occasion just dropping them.

Myself, I'd like to see more people put their money where their mouth is and give the site some financial support so that we don't have to worry about what to save and how.

I'll be renewing this next payday, Rich.

 

[kmurphy]

So a couple of bad guys working together and filing at the same time could take down the BOI.

Don't forget, Lucille, a law suit cost the plaintiff money too. If they want to get beyond the threat stage they have to pony up.

Just curious, and maybe this has been answered before. Has there ever been a law suit?