Bad Guy Brandon Griffey

[Snakemanbonk]

All I see in this thread is going off topic about who's really in the deal. And the fact there was no qt. Now qt would be important if Brandon and Tom were saying the snake infected another snake and it died as well. But they just want compesation for the mystic potion male that died. So that is on them that they bred it when it came in. It was a BREEDER animal. It was in BREEDING mode when they got it. So of course you are gonne BREED it. Not let it sit in a tub alone for 30-90 days and let that sperm go down the drain.

I see this as being a hard problem to solve as it isn't actually Xaviers fault the snake died and not toms or brandon's either. But dying in 10 days isn't normal. So xavier being the seller in this situation should compesate somehow. Even if it is sending money or just one of the 2 snakes he got back. Something is better then nothing. But that all depends on who wants to man up and eat it. Tom and Brandon have already came to that point as they didn't post on here.

I do think it is funny how brandon is a bad guy in this thread for wanting to get reimbursed for a dead snake. How the hell does that fly. I can understand Xavier having a bad guy post but also how do you post a bad guy thread on someone after you posted a good guy thread about them.

IMO Xavier isn't in the wrong but he should fix this somehow. I know if he doesn't Tom and Brandon will just eat it and deal with it and be out the 3-5k. But they didn't come on here trying to start a fight or calling xavier a bad guy now did they.....

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS!! I'M NOT BAD GUY AND NOW PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SEE THIS EVERYTIME THEY LOOK ME UP. I'M DONE WITH TOPIC... I'M AT WORK DRIVING SEMI I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THIS IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS CALL ME, TOM OR THE VET HIS NUMBER IS ON THE DOCUMENT. I'M ABOUT GET BACK ON THE ROAD AND YOU ALL HAVE A GREAT DAY )

 

[ShadowAceD]

All I see in this thread is going off topic about who's really in the deal. And the fact there was no qt. Now qt would be important if Brandon and Tom were saying the snake infected another snake and it died as well. But they just want compesation for the mystic potion male that died. So that is on them that they bred it when it came in. It was a BREEDER animal. It was in BREEDING mode when they got it. So of course you are gonne BREED it. Not let it sit in a tub alone for 30-90 days and let that sperm go down the drain.

I see this as being a hard problem to solve as it isn't actually Xaviers fault the snake died and not toms or brandon's either. But dying in 10 days isn't normal. So xavier being the seller in this situation should compesate somehow. Even if it is sending money or just one of the 2 snakes he got back. Something is better then nothing. But that all depends on who wants to man up and eat it. Tom and Brandon have already came to that point as they didn't post on here.

I do think it is funny how brandon is a bad guy in this thread for wanting to get reimbursed for a dead snake. How the hell does that fly. I can understand Xavier having a bad guy post but also how do you post a bad guy thread on someone after you posted a good guy thread about them.

IMO Xavier isn't in the wrong but he should fix this somehow. I know if he doesn't Tom and Brandon will just eat it and deal with it and be out the 3-5k. But they didn't come on here trying to start a fight or calling xavier a bad guy now did they.....

Then that is the risk they took and the animal died by no fault of anyone, therefore, no one is owed anything.

There is nothing to fix if Xavier is not in the wrong.

Also, quarantine procedures is not off topic. Thomas and Brandon were losing their over the animal "contaminating" their population with Salmonella. If they had quarantined properly and the animal died, that would be a moot point and not even something to consider. No one said it is normal for an animal to die ten days after arriving, but it should not be considered normal to throw a newly arrived animal in with the general population to breed.

This is how disease spreads. This is how stress related complications arise quickly.

They were trying to pressure Xavier into sending the animals back before they even knew what happened to the animal, they also tried to assume and imply other things happened to the animal when the vet. never confirmed such things. Xavier wanted to wait for the results and when he got them, he made the decision, based on the evidence, that he was not at fault. There is no way to prove when the ulcers started, there is no way to prove where the Salmonella was contracted unless every animal from both collection has fecals sent off and one or more animals comes back positive. Now if both collections have evidence of Salmonella (incredibly likely since many animals, humans included, carry Salmonella unknowingly), then what? The situation still has no resolution in terms of just where the bacteria was contracted from.

What is known is lack of proper quarantine procedures in a stressful environment and a dead snake.

Again, risk of dealing with live animals. Shipping can drastically alter the health of an otherwise healthy appearing animal. This has been shown over and over again but I know if I sent an animal to someone and they did not quarantine it and threw it in with other animals I would tell them they are SOL. Had they taken the necessary procedures of precaution to cover their own butts it would be another story, but they did not.

 

[ShadowAceD]

Poor quarantine practices that may have result in the death of an animal is enough for a Bad Guy Thread, in my opinion.

Also, this is a threat:

From: Brandon Griffey <[email protected]>
To: Xavier Springer <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Auto 2

That ain't what we agreed on. When I talk to you the 2 Weeks ago. If shipping stress killed then then how come the snakes i shipped you ain't dead then? They are babies and we didn't ship overnight it was in a few hours. You need to do what's right I did my part. if I sent you a snake and died less then two weeks I would replaced it. I don't want to go public with this and tell people you have sick snakes but i'm going to have to if you don't make a decision by 10 am tomorrow to ship out my snakes like you said you would when I first told you what happened after the results came in and we agreed to wait. And you wouldn't return any my calls that's not good either. It's the princible not about a warranty we not dealing electronics.

 

[deborahbroadus]

All I see in this thread is going off topic about who's really in the deal. And the fact there was no qt. Now qt would be important if Brandon and Tom were saying the snake infected another snake and it died as well. But they just want compesation for the mystic potion male that died. So that is on them that they bred it when it came in. It was a BREEDER animal. It was in BREEDING mode when they got it. So of course you are gonne BREED it. Not let it sit in a tub alone for 30-90 days and let that sperm go down the drain.

I see this as being a hard problem to solve as it isn't actually Xaviers fault the snake died and not toms or brandon's either. But dying in 10 days isn't normal. So xavier being the seller in this situation should compesate somehow. Even if it is sending money or just one of the 2 snakes he got back. Something is better then nothing. But that all depends on who wants to man up and eat it. Tom and Brandon have already came to that point as they didn't post on here.

I do think it is funny how brandon is a bad guy in this thread for wanting to get reimbursed for a dead snake. How the hell does that fly. I can understand Xavier having a bad guy post but also how do you post a bad guy thread on someone after you posted a good guy thread about them.

IMO Xavier isn't in the wrong but he should fix this somehow. I know if he doesn't Tom and Brandon will just eat it and deal with it and be out the 3-5k. But they didn't come on here trying to start a fight or calling xavier a bad guy now did they.....

This is very on topic. Experienced keepers and breeders are trying to educate him, show him how HE contributed to the death of the animal and thus can not lay the blame at the seller's feet. It's a hard lesson...but many of us have learned it. Breeding animals carries an inherent risk the way we (responsible breeders) minimize that risk is quarantine and keeping the stressors reduced (handling, breeding, etc) until the animal is established (eating and shedding normally). Whoever had control of the animal did NOT do those things.

But the things it died of were CAUSED by stress. Now...who stressed the animal to death?

 

[ShadowAceD]

And just for clarification, this is the only reason Brandon did not post a BOI Thread first, by his own admission, so let's not try to go "off topic" about who posted first.

 

[DaveyFig]

IMO Xavier isn't in the wrong but he should fix this somehow.

If Xavier wasn't in the wrong, then there is nothing to fix. Snakes don't normally die in 10 days, but that doesn't mean they never do. This was a yearling male. They didn't even feed it before it was placed with potential mates!

I know if he doesn't Tom and Brandon will just eat it and deal with it and be out the 3-5k. But they didn't come on here trying to start a fight or calling xavier a bad guy now did they.....

They didn't come here, but Brandon just said he was going to in his last post.

The only reason why I didn't BOI you a bad guy yet because I couldn't upload the videos to YouTube from my phone. I told you I was going to go public with this and you did it for me, Thanks I appreciate you doing the work that I didn't have time for, I tried to work this out with you. Bottom line is quarantine or not you sent me a snake that wasn't 100% healthy like the thriving healthy babies I sent you.

 

[ShadowAceD]

If Xavier wasn't in the wrong, then there is nothing to fix. Snakes don't normally die in 10 days, but that doesn't mean they never do. This was a yearling male. They didn't even feed it before it was placed with potential mates!



They didn't come here, but Brandon just said he was going to in his last post.

You posted at the same time I did, Davey. Lol

 

[bigdogg]

I still don't see the justification of posting a bad guy thread on a person who is just wanting a refund. I could see it the other one around without a doubt. Then especially as Xavier already had a GOOD GUY thread posted about Brandon.

Guess we need further testing done to see how far along the stress ulcers were.

Good to know if one of my animals I sell dies on a customer I can come on here and post about them being a bad guy though.

I have seen male ball pythons breed a 3 months to multiple females and not get "Stressed Out" so I don't see that being a cause of death. I have also transported snakes just as if you would ship them 10 hours of driving brought them home and bred them successfully. We can all praise Quarantine and we all do this and that and put the animals in a Bio lab of a room for 2 years before it touches our other collections. But when your dealing in high end ball pythons from quality breeder to quality breeder that don't happen. It would be like putting a male on loan to someone for breeding then expecting them to qt it for 6 months to make sure it is perfect. No you want them to breed it not sit on it and watch it be wasted. Like I said I don't think it is Xaviers fault the snake died.Some snakes die out of the blue. But I do put it on him to replace it as he is the seller. Thats how it works. I have taken HUGE hits by replacing animals I didn't have to. I had the same issue with an Albino malaysian blood python female adult. I sold it hand delivered it 6 days later it died. No reason what so ever just died. Now I didn't have to replace it. As it wasn't sick, it was perfectly healthy when I gave it to said customer. But guess what I replaced it with something better. Guess it all depends on what kind of seller you are.

 

[bigdogg]

I just don't want to see Brandon be said a Bad guy for having got an animal and it died. Tom nor Brandon are bad people and both have very healthy animals. And about the whole "Threat thing" everyone does that. And basically that is just warning them that they will make a BOI post as everyone who post here should NOTIFY who they are posting about of the thread they start.

 

[DaveyFig]

John, even if people don't quarantine for health concerns (from one quality breeder to another) the animal should at least be acclimated to the new environment before being introduced for breeding. For example, if an animal ate and pooped and there were no signs of failing to adapt, introduction could be considered (if one were really 100% sure that the animal didn't need a proper quarantine based on its origin).

 

[deborahbroadus]

I just don't want to see Brandon be said a Bad guy for having got an animal and it died. Tom nor Brandon are bad people and both have very healthy animals. And about the whole "Threat thing" everyone does that. And basically that is just warning them that they will make a BOI post as everyone who post here should NOTIFY who they are posting about of the thread they start.

Everyone does NOT do that. His "threat" can be viewed as an attempt at manipulating the issue by putting the seller under duress.

It is neither a wise, nor a mature move to make when trying to work out an issue. The best strategy (imo) is either do it (make the BG thread), and then inform the other party or keep quiet if you have no intention of making such a thread.

 

[DaveyFig]

If Brandon's threat of coming here was not a threat, what do you think he would have been saying if he came here? I doubt he would have been singing praises. We will never know, but I bet it wasn't a good guy post, and would have gotten much dirtier when Xavier didn't bend over.

 

[bullies&balls]

You ALL should really stop playing CSI. It makes me laugh at some of the comments. Sorry, but if the animal WAS QT and put into breeding program NEXT season, it is MOST likely that said animal would have died the same way. As everyonme loves to throw around MOST keepers and MOST breeders do this and that, MOST old timers KNOW that once an animal gets ill, the chance for a repeat illness is GREATLY increased and many feel the animal NEVER truely shakes the illness. YES, breeding is stressful on an animal and certain risk have to be put on the buyers shoulders, but regardless, a HEALTHY animal does NOT die in 10 (TEN) days PERIOD !!!!! disect this all you want, ask who this deal invloves all you want and blame it on poor QT practices all you want. the snake DIED in 10 days !!!!

 

[Fangthane]

Sorry, but if the animal WAS QT and put into breeding program NEXT season, it is MOST likely that said animal would have died the same way.

Do you understand the concept of a cumulative effect? Going directly from shipping to breeding compounds the initial stress greatly. There was no acclimation period whatsoever. I believe, as well as many others, that the exact opposite of your statement is more logical and likely to be the reality of the situation. If QT was practiced, there's an extremely high likelihood that the animal would still be alive. Both right now, and next breeding season.

MOST old timers KNOW that once an animal gets ill, the chance for a repeat illness is GREATLY increased and many feel the animal NEVER truely shakes the illness

Feel free to point out ANY evidence that shows there was a pre-existing illness. According to what Google tells me, the most serious issues shown in the vet report can be laid squarely at the feet of the toxins produced from the Salmonella infection. An active INFECTION, not the mere fact that Salmonella was present at all.

There's nothing to show that the ulcers were there before the snake was shipped. Based on what evidence we have here, the Salmonella (which harmlessly resides in the GI tracts of MANY reptiles) infected the ulcers that were found. Whether the ulcers came first, and the Salmonella took advantage of the opening, or whether the weakened immune system, that the stress caused, allowed the Salmonella to actually cause the ulcers, it still seems to boil down to one thing: stress-induced illness.

Out of all parties involved, who's freely admitted to putting it in the most stressful situations..?

disect this all you want, ask who this deal invloves all you want and blame it on poor QT practices all you want. the snake DIED in 10 days !!!!

You're doing nothing more than harping on the effect in order to try to produce an emotional response that'll cloud the real issue: The most likely cause. You're going out of your way to treat the cause in the most dismissive manner possible. Let's all get worked up over the fact that it died quickly and not really examine exactly why it happened.

 

[Lucille]

if the animal WAS QT and put into breeding program NEXT season, it is MOST likely that said animal would have died the same way.

This is an old trick. The person making a claim, with no proof at all, posits his view of the circumstances as a given.

It is not a given, not halfway a given, this is wholly what this person would have us believe.

Nice try though.

 

[DesertRat73]

You're going out of your way to treat the cause in the most dismissive manner possible. Let's all get worked up over the fact that it died quickly and not really examine exactly why it happened.

It's amazing how popular this tactic is these days. Anything to keep people from thinking about an issue rationally. Reminds me of a political campaign.

 

[bullies&balls]

THIS animal was ALREADY breeding for the OP. Then shipped, then bred again. So you still think ALL this happend in 10 days from the time the animal arrived ?? You go on thinking that. And to answer your question, EXPERINCE tells me about my statement with sick animals and reoccuring illness when put into stressful situations.

Lucille, you have chimed in several times ont his thread and what concrete evidence have you brought to the table. YOU can say for sure 100% that if QT was done to YOUR standards this animal would be alive today ? I DON'T think so. You statements have as much validity as mine as best...

 

[Lucille]

YOU can say for sure 100% that if QT was done to YOUR standards this animal would be alive today ?

That is another sad old trick. I did not make that claim at all. I am saying (as many have said) that there is not concrete evidence the critter arrived sick, and that QT is basic husbandry and was ignored.

 

[Ashendust54]

Lucille, you have chimed in several times ont his thread and what concrete evidence have you brought to the table. YOU can say for sure 100% that if QT was done to YOUR standards this animal would be alive today ? I DON'T think so. You statements have as much validity as mine as best...

Its not a question of standards, its the fact it wasnt done in the first place!

 

[Mike41793]

Wow took me awhile to get through this whole thread!
My thought process on the whole thing is this:
Im almost positive ulcers dont develop in just 9 days. Ulcers are caused by bacteria and can slowly develop in the lining of the stomach for years. So with that said i would say the ulcers were a pre-existing condition that had developed in xaviers care. The problem is even though they were developing in the snake there was no way for him to know that. The snake wasnt stressed so the ulcers didnt all the sudden get realy bad. When brandon/tom received the snake and put it to the females right away i think the stress of the shipping, combined with the stress of the females, caused the snake a ton of immediate stress and caused the ulcers to flare up. This is why the snake didnt eat for brandon/tom. Once the ulcers flared up it allowed the salmonella in the snakes stomach to get into the tisssue and like the vet said i beliee, that is what killed it.
With all that said i think both parties are equally NOT at fault. Yes xavier had a sick snake, but he didnt know it. Yes tom didnt QT but even if he had the snake may have eventually died bc of the ulcers anyways. If it were me personally, i would return 1 of brandon/toms snakes. I would feel bad the snake died due to unknown, pre-existing conditions. I would pick which one i liked better lol, and then offer to send them the other one back. Xavier, technically, does not have to though imo.