Bad Guy Brandon Griffey

[mechnut450]

I seen healthy snakes die faster than 10 days. I had a bp given to me that was healthy and easting fine then suddenly it died with in a week period for unknown reasons) the only thing I could evert figure out was that it was stressed out over the change in eviroment.

We all know that breeding creates stress so with the stress of shipping and if he breed right off the back that could be so much stressthat it gave the poor snake had heart failure. on top of that the 2 females that were breed to can still produce potions ( among the other morphs, not a morph nerd lol ) then op is out of snake and the receiver still makes out good ( with new snakes)

 

[Fangthane]

Wow took me awhile to get through this whole thread!
My thought process on the whole thing is this:
Im almost positive ulcers dont develop in just 9 days. Ulcers are caused by bacteria and can slowly develop in the lining of the stomach for years. So with that said i would say the ulcers were a pre-existing condition that had developed in xaviers care....

Not necessarily true. Apparently, not all ulcers are created equally or by the same process. The breeding process could have possibly created a pressure ulcer from being under or wrapped up by a much larger female. This is purely speculation, since no one knows for sure how, why or when the ulcers formed. But I think it's worth noting.

Excerpt from here: http://www.o-wm.com/content/how-muc...-integrated-evidence-human-animal-and-in-vitr

Severe pressure ulcers and deep tissue injury are associated with higher mortality rates, longer hospital stays, and costly treatment. Time is a critical factor in commonly employed measures (eg, pressure redistribution for wheelchair users and patient turning schedules) to prevent pressure ulcers and deep tissue injury. Surprisingly, information regarding the timeframe for pressure ulcer onset, particularly for deep tissue injury onset, is scant. To create a timeframe for the development of pressure ulcers and deep tissue injury, available evidence from the following study types was obtained and reviewed: 1) studies involving patients who underwent surgeries of known duration and subsequently developed a serious pressure ulcer with subcutaneous tissue damage or deep tissue injury; 2) animal studies in which loads were applied on soft tissues of anesthetized animals and tissue viability monitored in real time or using histology post-euthanasia; and 3) in vitro models in cell cultures and tissue-engineered constructs. Findings from the three models indicate that pressure ulcers in subdermal tissues under bony prominences very likely occur between the first hour and 4 to 6 hours after sustained loading. However, research examining these timeframes in sitting patients is not available. Further fundamental research, employing animal and cell culture models, is required to narrow this range further and to correlate the time factor to the extent of tissue damage.

 

[Lucille]

In post 34 Thomas says the vet himself could not say how long the ulcers were there.

 

[Bill T]

Not necessarily true. Apparently, not all ulcers are created equally or by the same process. The breeding process could have possibly created a pressure ulcer from being under or wrapped up by a much larger female. This is purely speculation, since no one knows for sure how, why or when the ulcers formed. But I think it's worth noting.

Excerpt from here: http://www.o-wm.com/content/how-muc...-integrated-evidence-human-animal-and-in-vitr

Not the same kind of ulcer what you are reading are skin ulcers I. The ulcers the snake had are internal

 

[Bill T]

Not the same kind of ulcer what you are reading are skin ulcers I. The ulcers the snake had are internal

Ok reading it again I may be wrong what type of ulcers did the vet say they where.

 

[DesertRat73]

Ok reading it again I may be wrong what type of ulcers did the vet say they where.

In the video he says "ulcers", the report says ulcerative enteritis and mild esophogitis.

 

[Bill T]

In the video he says "ulcers", the report says ulcerative enteritis and mild esophogitis.

ok so it is internal

 

[deborahbroadus]

Well, regardless...as many females as they paired with the deceased snake...perhaps the buyers will get lucky and then no one will be out anything at all...

 

[bullies&balls]

I think it was stated that only 2 or 3 girls were paired with this animal. As well as a couple from the OP. That would fit a 3 day rotation if he wasn't breeding and left in with a female before been moved to another.

 

[Fangthane]

Not the same kind of ulcer what you are reading are skin ulcers I. The ulcers the snake had are internal

That was posted under the premise that the same principle could apply both internally, as well as externally. I don't know much about the internal anatomy of snakes, and where the stomach is, in relation to the ribcage. Speaking purely as a layman, it seems that what would effect soft tissue on the outside of the body, could have the same effect internally, with an identical stimulus: the tissue being forced against a "bony prominence". If a much heavier snake was on top of, or wrapped around the male for an extended period of time, it could flatten the snake out to the point that the ribcage could come into direct contact and exert a good amount of pressure on the stomach. Sort of like compartment syndrome, but caused by external constriction as opposed to internal swelling.

Guess I'm just trying to puzzle this thing together into a picture that makes sense to me. Pay me no mind.

 

[thomas raspoptsis]

I think it was stated that only 2 or 3 girls were paired with this animal. As well as a couple from the OP. That would fit a 3 day rotation if he wasn't breeding and left in with a female before been moved to another.

just for the record it was in with 2 different females but did not , i repeat did not lock up or breed to either females it did nothing here except die in 10 days. so there was no constriction of the snake at all it had stayed away from the females at opposite ends of the cb 70 tub

 

[thomas raspoptsis]

just for the record it was in with 2 different females but did not , i repeat did not lock up or breed to either females it did nothing here except die in 10 days. so there was no constriction of the snake at all it had stayed away from the females at opposite ends of the cb 70 tub

brandon had only 2 mojave females at his house,

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

Concerning the diagnosis, internal ulcers are not the same as external and the type specified by the necropsy report were in the intestinal tract (large and small intestines), which has numerous bacteria (like salmonella) and digestive enzymes which contribute to ulceration in larger amounts than normal. Most, if not all reptiles, have an increased amount of these digestive enzymes to digest whole prey items, carion, and detritis that all carry an increased number of bacteria (think of it as increased stomach acid to kill the bacteria and make it safe for the animal to eat). So the point that the ulcers were caused at day 3, or before shipping is moot. We don't know, the vet doesn't know, so it's open to speculation. The only exception to this would be IF the vet had told Xavier that the ulcers were EXTREMELY large. That would be the closest to proof that they were preexisting.
Just because an animal gets sick once, does NOT mean it has a higher potential to get sick again. In fact, sometimes it's the exact opposite, especially if it develops antibodies towards a certain virus. I can't speak for anyone else's collection, but in my experiences as a vet tech, and in my own collection, this has not been the case. I have seen one or two cases where there's an underlying immunity problem where the animal is predisposed to a certain condition, such as RI and is more succeptible if the temp drops briefly. But I have treated numerous animals for infections, viruses, and parasites that have never recurred and some that may recur one or two times. It just depends on the animal, the environment, husbandry, genetics, age, etc.

I also wanted to add that each breeder has his/her own personal live guaranantee policies. Mine is 7 days and its stated on my website. So in this case, it wouldn't be covered. However, I would still try to meet them halfway because the situation is a gray area- the snake being so young, being bred before shipping (stress) and the other half- being shipped, flown, bred, and in an unfamiliar environment with no adjustment period (of even a week) (more stress). I'd have to take a percentage of that responsibility. I think this is just one of those situations where you have to look at the policies and the situation carefully and make a decision based on what you think is right. When you have money wrapped up in a live animal, that's the risk involved (on both sides).

 

[Mike41793]

so there was no constriction of the snake at all it had stayed away from the females at opposite ends of the cb 70 tub

You cant say for sure because you probably were not monitoring it 24/7...

However i still say the ulcers were most likely a pre-existing condition that flared up during all the stress of shipping and then breeding right away. As people said, the ulcers in that link that was posted were superficial examples. Even if the ribs of the snake pushed on the stomach to cause it i dont think that could all happen so quickly and made it so bad that it would kill the snake in just 10 days. I dont know for sure though, this is just my opinion on what most likely happened. Unfortunately we most likely will never really know for sure...

 

[Neon]

Personally, regardless of if the condition were pre-existing or not I wouldn't refund you sheerly due to your husbandry practices. The point of quarantining an animal is 1) to be able to say you have observed it for a period of time and can therefore guarantee the health of the animal and your collection and 2) to give the animal time to calm down and adjust to not only a new environment but a completely new set of husbandry practices. You did neither. Since you didn't do either you can absolutely not say the death has NOTHING to do with the new environment the snake was thrust into because you didnt take time to observe the health of the snake on its own.

Additionally your argument tht you bought a rtb male for breeding season as justification for not quarantining is absolutely absurd. If the snake were sick from the previous owner you would now be breeding that illness into your collection. Every responsible breeder I know with respectable, HEALTHY collections will not cut corners at the sake of their animals' health which is exactly what you did. Because you did not have the patience to properly care for your animal you cannot prove it was ill prior to enterig your collection (animals can get stress ulcers just like us) and now youre upset that you're paying for YOUR mistake? Why should he trade back your snakes if you cant prove prior illness and have questionable husbandry practices?

 

[Bill T]

Personally, regardless of if the condition were pre-existing or not I wouldn't refund you sheerly due to your husbandry practices. The point of quarantining an animal is 1) to be able to say you have observed it for a period of time and can therefore guarantee the health of the animal and your collection and 2) to give the animal time to calm down and adjust to not only a new environment but a completely new set of husbandry practices. You did neither. Since you didn't do either you can absolutely not say the death has NOTHING to do with the new environment the snake was thrust into because you didnt take time to observe the health of the snake on its own.

Additionally your argument tht you bought a rtb male for breeding season as justification for not quarantining is absolutely absurd. If the snake were sick from the previous owner you would now be breeding that illness into your collection. Every responsible breeder I know with respectable, HEALTHY collections will not cut corners at the sake of their animals' health which is exactly what you did. Because you did not have the patience to properly care for your animal you cannot prove it was ill prior to enterig your collection (animals can get stress ulcers just like us) and now youre upset that you're paying for YOUR mistake? Why should he trade back your snakes if you cant prove prior illness and have questionable husbandry practices?

Do you know what causes stress ulcers ?

 

[ReptileGeek181]

*Say stress*

 

[Kevin S]

this thread has become way to big

the fact and only facts are Brandon/Tom sent Xavier 2 snakes babies at that and they are perfectly fine. Xavier sent 1 breeder male, that DIED within 9 days .Some thing isn't right , talk of QT no QT about stress from shipping. The fact is a healthy snakes does not die in 9 days. The unsaid gentlements agreement is that BOTH PARTIES are shipping HEALTHY snakes. And either party should stand behind there animal if something like this happens, Xaviers needs to do the right thing though he will lose thes most and Ship Brandon/Toms snakes back. As deals like this will effect future trades betweenhobbiest, and I'm sure peole will question Xaviers collection. The only way to turn it into a positive experience would be Xavier to send the 2 snakes back.

 

[Bill T]

*Say stress*

I have assisted in treating many people for stress ulcers never seen any that came from just being stressed there was always some traumatic injury or illness.

 

[ReptileGeek181]

Stress ulcers are single or multiple mucosal defects which can become complicated by upper gastrointestinal bleeding during the physiologic stress of serious illness.