Bad Guy Brandon Griffey

[Bill T]

Stress ulcers are single or multiple mucosal defects which can become complicated by upper gastrointestinal bleeding during the physiologic stress of serious illness.

That’s right you just don’t develop stress ulcers from being stressed.

 

[Fangthane]

Originally Posted by ReptileGeek181
Stress ulcers are single or multiple mucosal defects which can become complicated by upper gastrointestinal bleeding during the physiologic stress of serious illness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_ulcer

Way to take the first line of the very first search result Google yields, and regurgitate it as your own words. Plagiarize, much..?

 

[ReptileGeek181]

Cool assumption bro! Lol I never claimed it was my own words but ok

 

[Lucille]

Feel free to point out ANY evidence that shows there was a pre-existing illness. According to what Google tells me, the most serious issues shown in the vet report can be laid squarely at the feet of the toxins produced from the Salmonella infection. An active INFECTION, not the mere fact that Salmonella was present at all.

There's nothing to show that the ulcers were there before the snake was shipped. Based on what evidence we have here, the Salmonella (which harmlessly resides in the GI tracts of MANY reptiles) infected the ulcers that were found. Whether the ulcers came first, and the Salmonella took advantage of the opening, or whether the weakened immune system, that the stress caused, allowed the Salmonella to actually cause the ulcers, it still seems to boil down to one thing: stress-induced illness.

Out of all parties involved, who's freely admitted to putting it in the most stressful situations..?



You're doing nothing more than harping on the effect in order to try to produce an emotional response that'll cloud the real issue: The most likely cause. You're going out of your way to treat the cause in the most dismissive manner possible. Let's all get worked up over the fact that it died quickly and not really examine exactly why it happened.

It seems like this excellent post needs to be repeated.

 

[Neon]

Do you know what causes stress ulcers ?

Stress

I should clarify that what I was intending to say is that stress is an irritant to ulcers just like us. (My understanding of them is limited but I believe stress is a blanket term for the varying kinds of ulcers that can be promoted through stress and some of which can be caused by SEVERE stress.)

The point I was trying to make is there is absolutely no way to say without a shadow of doubt if they were pre-existing or not. Had he taken the time to quarantine or even waited for him to eat ONCE while in his care he would have been able to notice unusual behavior - I imagine an animal with ulcers would have side affects when digesting a meal especially (regurgitation, diarrhea, etc.). Did he quarantine his females after receiving them? What if they carried an ulcer-causing bacteria that they then passed on to him? But because that evidence and observation is non-existent he really can't blame the seller (though that also means he, Brandon, can't be really blamed as well since there is equally as much proof that the condition developed with him).

 

[Kevin S]

question

How many vets have replied to this thread, everyone seams to be one now. the matter of fact is the snake is dead, and the buyer should be compensated. Im sorry to see Xavier have to lose but the snake was in his collection the longest, and since we are all speculating, what if the deal went down 8 days later? and it died the next day? No one has a crystal ball to forsee the future, the right thing to do would be either offer a refund of some type.

 

[Lucille]

How many vets have replied to this thread, everyone seams to be one now. the matter of fact is the snake is dead, and the buyer should be compensated. Im sorry to see Xavier have to lose but the snake was in his collection the longest, and since we are all speculating, what if the deal went down 8 days later? and it died the next day? No one has a crystal ball to forsee the future, the right thing to do would be either offer a refund of some type.

King Kevin.

We have been discussing for many pages the complexities here, and many experienced keepers are offering their own points of view, yet here you are, telling us what the right thing is, and what the facts are. We could have saved a lot of time had you shown up earlier

 

[Kevin S]

wow

Lucy, sound like you may be... Lets keep the topic to what it is , there is a dead snake . That is the fact, maybe xaviers fault, maybe brandon i dont know, What i do know is when other hobbyiest see this they wont be to sure on trades with anyone, as this thread is example of when it goes wrong and how it is resolved in the wrong way. there should be a middle ground that works out for both parties.

 

[DesertRat73]

How many vets have replied to this thread, everyone seams to be one now. the matter of fact is the snake is dead, and the buyer should be compensated. Im sorry to see Xavier have to lose but the snake was in his collection the longest, and since we are all speculating, what if the deal went down 8 days later? and it died the next day? No one has a crystal ball to forsee the future, the right thing to do would be either offer a refund of some type.

Had the practices on the receiving end not been so abhorrent, your resolution would be reasonable, but this is not that circumstance. While not a full fledged Vet, here ya go(you only missed it by one page):

Concerning the diagnosis, internal ulcers are not the same as external and the type specified by the necropsy report were in the intestinal tract (large and small intestines), which has numerous bacteria (like salmonella) and digestive enzymes which contribute to ulceration in larger amounts than normal. Most, if not all reptiles, have an increased amount of these digestive enzymes to digest whole prey items, carion, and detritis that all carry an increased number of bacteria (think of it as increased stomach acid to kill the bacteria and make it safe for the animal to eat). So the point that the ulcers were caused at day 3, or before shipping is moot. We don't know, the vet doesn't know, so it's open to speculation. The only exception to this would be IF the vet had told Xavier that the ulcers were EXTREMELY large. That would be the closest to proof that they were preexisting.
Just because an animal gets sick once, does NOT mean it has a higher potential to get sick again. In fact, sometimes it's the exact opposite, especially if it develops antibodies towards a certain virus. I can't speak for anyone else's collection, but in my experiences as a vet tech, and in my own collection, this has not been the case. I have seen one or two cases where there's an underlying immunity problem where the animal is predisposed to a certain condition, such as RI and is more succeptible if the temp drops briefly. But I have treated numerous animals for infections, viruses, and parasites that have never recurred and some that may recur one or two times. It just depends on the animal, the environment, husbandry, genetics, age, etc.

I also wanted to add that each breeder has his/her own personal live guaranantee policies. Mine is 7 days and its stated on my website. So in this case, it wouldn't be covered. However, I would still try to meet them halfway because the situation is a gray area- the snake being so young, being bred before shipping (stress) and the other half- being shipped, flown, bred, and in an unfamiliar environment with no adjustment period (of even a week) (more stress). I'd have to take a percentage of that responsibility. I think this is just one of those situations where you have to look at the policies and the situation carefully and make a decision based on what you think is right. When you have money wrapped up in a live animal, that's the risk involved (on both sides).

... said the Vet tech.

 

[Fangthane]

Lucy, sound like you may be... Lets keep the topic to what it is , there is a dead snake . That is the fact, maybe xaviers fault, maybe brandon i dont know, What i do know is when other hobbyiest see this they wont be to sure on trades with anyone, as this thread is example of when it goes wrong and how it is resolved in the wrong way. there should be a middle ground that works out for both parties.

Thank you, Capt. Obvious, for pointing that the snake is dead. I'm fairly sure we've all managed to crack that part of the code, by now. As a hobbyist, you're definitely not speaking for me, in regards to any sense of being unsure about trades in the future. Especially when concerning the actual principals in this situation.

I have this nagging bad habit of wanting to examine things objectively and rationally before coming to a conclusion. And, having read this entire thread, and spent alot of time on Google, this is the conclusion I've reached: I'd gladly buy from a seller, like Xavier, who's conducted himself professionally and has been shown to have done nothing wrong in this situation. Nothing that I can see, at least.

The buyers are another case entirely. They've shown piss-poor judgement and husbandry practices. While trying to hide behind the "everyone does it" mentality. It appears that we'll never know exactly what happened, but based on analysis of the context clues made available here, it's not very hard to come to a very likely hypothesis that puts them in the position of being culpable.

This whole thread is a prime example of why little, if anything, is generally offered beyond a live arrival guarantee. A seller shouldn't be responsible for a buyer's negligent practices.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

Now that's posting!

Thank you, Capt. Obvious, for pointing that the snake is dead. I'm fairly sure we've all managed to crack that part of the code, by now. As a hobbyist, you're definitely not speaking for me, in regards to any sense of being unsure about trades in the future. Especially when concerning the actual principals in this situation.

I have this nagging bad habit of wanting to examine things objectively and rationally before coming to a conclusion. And, having read this entire thread, and spent alot of time on Google, this is the conclusion I've reached: I'd gladly buy from a seller, like Xavier, who's conducted himself professionally and has been shown to have done nothing wrong in this situation. Nothing that I can see, at least.

The buyers are another case entirely. They've shown piss-poor judgement and husbandry practices. While trying to hide behind the "everyone does it" mentality. It appears that we'll never know exactly what happened, but based on analysis of the context clues made available here, it's not very hard to come to a very likely hypothesis that puts them in the position of being culpable.

This whole thread is a prime example of why little, if anything, is generally offered beyond a live arrival guarantee. A seller shouldn't be responsible for a buyer's negligent practices.

 

[Kevin S]

negligent practices ? By breeding it? i do believe this is still the breeding season and Im sure thats what the buyers idea was to breed it, infact Xavier asked how many females had it breed?
piss-poor judgement and husbandry practices? how? Ive got no dog in this its just too bad there is never full disclosure, and this trade crys out to potential hobbyiest with the intention of trading to ask these questions instead of asuming that you are going to receive one thing and get something else. Thanks again Dan the man for your insite...

 

[DesertRat73]

piss-poor judgement and husbandry practices? how?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Proper+Ball+Python+husbandry


Imo the "its breeding season" argument merely demonstrates the lazy minded mentality that plagues our hobby. Breeding season doesn't jump out and surprise people. It usually come around about the same time each year, yes? So from where I sit, it's really a small matter to plan ahead, if you're wanting to use a trade situation, and make sure the animal is shipped out early enough to at least allow time to acclimate. Obviously(at least to those not confused by basic husbandry) a quarantine period would be even better, and also not too terribly hard to plan for. But I tend to favor logic and responsibility, so this will not be well received by some.

 

[Kevin S]

Thank you for pointing that out, i was just merely suggesting why Brandon may have breed xaviers male...

 

[ReptileGeek181]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310844

 

[Discojaguar]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310844

Thank you for adding what is a very good example of a completely ..irrelivent post. The process in question was NOT the deal, and both parties seemed happy with that. ( the snake was live, on time, what was expected, and the snake was paid for on time) THAT is what Xavier is mentioning.

what IS in question (which I feel like i'm just beating my head against a wall here) is the buyers practices AFTER receiving the snake, and their attitude and refusal to take responsibility for that.

---

I'm new to keeping BP's but I feel like some of this stuff is common sense to any one who does a little research. I would think that serious breeders would be thinking about their breeding projects well before the breeding season? and wouldn't be looking for males/females to couple in the middle of it. (You don't do that with any other type of breeding program). If for some reason that's different in herps, I would like to be enlightened but I'm surprised how many people are siding with the buyer on just throwing the male in with ANY amount of females.

 

[DesertRat73]

Thank you for adding what is a very good example of a completely ..irrelivent post.

I'll second that.

I feel like i'm just beating my head against a wall here.

You're not the only one.

I feel like some of this stuff is common sense to any one who does a little research.

It is. What you have here is a small group of people arguing for arguments sake. The idea of the seller compensating the buyer would be good if it were normal circumstances. But the actions of the buyer completely negate any reasonable expectation of that.

 

[Snakemanbonk]

First of all Xavier didn't care about me quarantine the snake in the first place. So I wrong for trusting Xavier's snake was a good breeder and healthy enough to breed? If i'm so wrong then why he would suggest me to breed it? And ask me if I have got a lock up yet 3 days later. He was not so concern with me quarantine process for the snake. I didn't put the snake with a female right out of the box like some of you all keep saying. it's obvious that he has poor husband practices too if he didn't suggest quarantine first before breeding. At this point it's about the principle, if the shoe was on the other foot I would sent the snake back with no problems. There are more test to be done on the snake.. You all have a good night.. Good Guy Signing off

 

[Snakemanbonk]

Sorry for the typos my phone kept cutting off and changing words

 

[DesertRat73]

First of all Xavier didn't care about me quarantine the snake in the first place. So I wrong for trusting Xavier's snake was a good breeder and healthy enough to breed? If i'm so wrong then why he would suggest me to breed it? And ask me if I have got a lock up yet 3 days later. He was not so concern with me quarantine process for the snake. I didn't put the snake with a female right out of the box like some of you all keep saying. it's obvious that he has poor husband practices too if he didn't suggest quarantine first before breeding. At this point it's about the principle, if the shoe was on the other foot I would sent the snake back with no problems. There are more test to be done on the snake.. You all have a good night.. Good Guy Signing off

The point of participating in BOI threads as a primary party is to bolster support for your position. Pointing out his poor husbandry to justify your own isn't going to do that. It's going to confirm what everyone has been saying in that you guys have no regard for these animals beyond dollar signs, and now you are paying for that practice. There's only so many ways all these people can explain the same simple concept to you guys. You screwed up.