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Bad Guy Brandon Griffey

I'm here to vouch for Brandon, I have known him and we have bought and sold animals to each other for the last five years. I have never had any issues with him or his animals and consider him to be very fair.

Seems like a refund would be due to him considering the time the snake remained alive in his care and because of the length Brandon has gone to ascertain the health, or lack there of, upon the snakes death.

I hope that this matter can be handled between these too gentlemen without anyone's name being dragged through the mud and this public bashing.

Good luck to both parties in finding some settlement.
 
I've done business with Brandon in the past, so I dont know if that makes me biased or not, but here is my opinion.

I personally would give back one of the snakes that I recieved. Maybe both, just to be done with the whole scenario. I can see where Brandon's/Tom's practices are at very least "questionable" and could have definitely sped up/caused the infection. But... I would also take my own practices (Xavier) into my thought process... Most of us know the effect "breeding season" can have on a healthy adult male Ball Python. Stress is involved and it can sometimes "effect" a big healthy male. So taking a hatchling, feeding it on a schedule to get it to breeding size as quick as possible, breeding it to multiple females, and then putting it up for sale as a breeder male... All before its first birthday, just seems "questionable" to me... Could that type of "lifestyle" be the most positive on a hatchling Ball Python? Could the stress of "power feeding" and early breeding create similar stress to lack of quarantine and instant introduction? I dont know... I think this young snake had pretty crazy life for a snake under a year of age. I would think some responsibility would be present from any "decent" seller.

I also find it very funny that some people can respond so self righteously positive that Brandon/Tom killed the snake, yet there is zero proof eitherway. I am surprised that some of you have such vast knowledge that you can say what caused the problems and wether they were pre-existing, or that the shipping and new home was so much more "stressfull" than his previous living conditions. Its good to know that your not jumping on either of the sides that can not be proven!:thumbsup:

To be honest... I am also surprised that anyone would purchase/trade or sell/trade a 2011 as a breeder male... Just seems funny to me from either side of the fence. Surprises all around!:)
 
None of us know for sure what killed the snake, we are purely speculating.
What we do know contributed to its death is the stress caused by immediate breeding attempts upon arrival.
You should reread things and how they were said before assuming what was meant.
 
Mr. Baker, in my opinion, it doesn't matter that the snake was raised quickly and was used for breeding by Xavier, as long as Brandon/Tom knew that when they bought it.
They chose to breed (or attempted to) it more upon arrival, knowing its past. They chose not to let it acclimate. It doesn't matter which stress killed it deader, that which came at Xavier's facility or at Tom's facility. It continued to be stressed by (and ultimately died in) Tom's care.
 
If you buy a snake, regardless of what the seller says, "Healthy, proven breeder, ready to breed, etc.," a new snake should be put in QT. If the Potion was breeding all year, chances are he was off feed for a few months. Breeding takes a toll on a snake, male or female, and that combined with being off feed makes a snake its weakest during and right after breeding season. If you get a male during this period of time, there is no way in hell I would put it right away, in with females, no matter what condition it arrives in. The stress of shipping plus the stress of a new encloser, plus the fact it may or may not have eaten in awhile, plus the fact that it is introduced to new females and introduced so quickly, without a chance to settle in, probably contributed to its death. A weakened animal can sucumb to a condition that normaly it could fight off.

Let's say it had the ulcers, and had had them for an extended period of time. It lived just fine with them because it was not overly stressed. What if it just got the ulcers? Again, the stress it endured probably caused the ulcers to become aggrevated...

I think Rattrap learned an expensive lesson that we all should learn from.
 
This is a very unfortunate event for both parties, however, the lack of conscience that's taken place has by far separated this BOI thread from most others. I see no bad guy on either side and with the amount of actual data presented at this point, this thread might have saved a lot of embarrassment for both if it had never surfaced. If you removed all the supposition from this thread, we would still be on page one.
 
Focal said:
This is a very unfortunate event for both parties, however, the lack of conscience that's taken place has by far separated this BOI thread from most others. I see no bad guy on either side and with the amount of actual data presented at this point, this thread might have saved a lot of embarrassment for both if it had never surfaced. If you removed all the supposition from this thread, we would still be on page one.
Click to expand...

very true, just so many resident "experts" wont let the parties work it out. Tom Baker made a great point , why is noone upset that the snake was less than a year old and in breeding mode? And no one has said anything about xavier breeding it. He is the one who feed it to the size (700 grams) it is and did bred it. maybe the power feeding and the stress from breeding may have contributed to the issues that the potion had. And no one is asking why xavier bred and sold it, maybe he too is in it for the $$$ and felt he didnt need it any more as it had bred all the females xavier wanted it too? :shrug01:
 
Kevin S said:
very true, just so many resident "experts" wont let the parties work it out. Tom Baker made a great point , why is noone upset that the snake was less than a year old and in breeding mode? And no one has said anything about xavier breeding it. He is the one who feed it to the size (700 grams) it is and did bred it. maybe the power feeding and the stress from breeding may have contributed to the issues that the potion had. And no one is asking why xavier bred and sold it, maybe he too is in it for the $$$ and felt he didnt need it any more as it had bred all the females xavier wanted it too? :shrug01:
Click to expand...


Wow, this really needs to be gone over again? Really?

IF Tom had set the snake aside and allowed it to acclimate properly, there would be little question on how to proceed. As Tom points out, he was well aware that the snake was too young to breed, and aware that it had been raised quickly to do so. He ignored that risk, ignored the snakes need to acclimate, and bred it immediately anyway. He took a calculated risk and lost.
 
Kevin S said:
very true, just so many resident "experts" wont let the parties work it out. Tom Baker made a great point , why is noone upset that the snake was less than a year old and in breeding mode? And no one has said anything about xavier breeding it. He is the one who feed it to the size (700 grams) it is and did bred it. maybe the power feeding and the stress from breeding may have contributed to the issues that the potion had. And no one is asking why xavier bred and sold it, maybe he too is in it for the $$$ and felt he didnt need it any more as it had bred all the females xavier wanted it too? :shrug01:
Click to expand...

Why? Because there was no fraud involved, and if Xavier had lost the animal, from his breeding, feeding, etc, it would have been on him and we wouldn't be here. However, the buyer was aware of these issues, youth, breeding, etc (that you just pointed out) and assumed responsibility when he purchased the animal.

The fact of the matter (IMO) is that when dealing with live entities there is no guarantee. The buyer can not be held responsible for selling an OUTWARDLY healthy animal unless PRIOR illness can be proven.

Personally, I would not spend that kind of money on an animal that was bred before being shipped to me. I am also leery about buying grown animals, because there's really no way to know how many times the animal has been bred, whether there were ever any complications and how old the animal actually is. Personally, I prefer to raise my own hatchlings to prevent these kinds of outcomes where possible. Purchasing hatchlings gives the buyer time, and opportunity for de-stressing, observing the health, and quarantining the animal.

We are not keeping the parties from working out anything, but the buyer really screwed his case by:

1. Being caught in untruths, fabrications, exaggerations
2. Not quarantining
3. Not having possession of the animal

Thus unless the report proves a pre-existing condition, he's out of luck.:shrug01:

I don't think it can be any more simple than that. :shrug01:


BTW: I was going to leave the "Power-feeding" implication alone, but wanted to mention that it's not unusual for a yearling to reach those weights without power-feeding.
 
Kevin S;1455993wont let the parties work it out. [/QUOTE said:
Also, nobody is preventing anything. They are free to contact each other and deal with it themselves. Not one person on this board wields the kind of power you suggest.:rofl::rofl:
Click to expand...
 
deborahbroadus said:
Why? Because there was no fraud involved, and if Xavier had lost the animal, from his breeding, feeding, etc, it would have been on him and we wouldn't be here. However, the buyer was aware of these issues, youth, breeding, etc (that you just pointed out) and assumed responsibility when he purchased the animal.

The fact of the matter (IMO) is that when dealing with live entities there is no guarantee. The buyer can not be held responsible for selling an OUTWARDLY healthy animal unless PRIOR illness can be proven.

Personally, I would not spend that kind of money on an animal that was bred before being shipped to me. I am also leery about buying grown animals, because there's really no way to know how many times the animal has been bred, whether there were ever any complications and how old the animal actually is. Personally, I prefer to raise my own hatchlings to prevent these kinds of outcomes where possible. Purchasing hatchlings gives the buyer time, and opportunity for de-stressing, observing the health, and quarantining the animal.

We are not keeping the parties from working out anything, but the buyer really screwed his case by:

1. Being caught in untruths, fabrications, exaggerations
2. Not quarantining
3. Not having possession of the animal

Thus unless the report proves a pre-existing condition, he's out of luck.:shrug01:

I don't think it can be any more simple than that. :shrug01:


BTW: I was going to leave the "Power-feeding" implication alone, but wanted to mention that it's not unusual for a yearling to reach those weights without power-feeding.
Click to expand...

untruths, fabrications. "powerfeeding" can you explain what a normal feeding schedual would be and As in my opinion it was power fed to bred for xavier . He did state that he bred it, so the seller was trying to profit on a young male ,as he was selling it as a proven breeder , yet it hadden produced anything. yet most chose to over look this and just "bash" brandon/tom for doing the same. no where did i say i agree with there practices just pointing out " similar situations" the seller and buyer both did.
 
DesertRat73 said:
Wow, this really needs to be gone over again? Really?

IF Tom had set the snake aside and allowed it to acclimate properly, there would be little question on how to proceed. As Tom points out, he was well aware that the snake was too young to breed, and aware that it had been raised quickly to do so. He ignored that risk, ignored the snakes need to acclimate, and bred it immediately anyway. He took a calculated risk and lost.
Click to expand...

Wow you cant seam to grasp, that what Xavier did may have had something to do with the death of the potion by breeding a young male and powerfeeding. yet no one seams to question that, just that Brandon/Tom are partners in a project and yes they did maybe try to breed it to fast. but in my opinion that wasnt the cause of death. I believe it would have died in Qt.
 
another thing that comes ot mind is i havent seen Xaviers Record/feeding card. Maybe it had not been eating well while he was breeding it and how long it actually took to gain the size it did 3 months 6 months? the card would help shed a light on this to understand what the potion had been going through, xaviers did state it ate 2 weeks proir but what about before that? most males do go off feed during breeding, maybe it was pushed to far before B/T recieved it.?:shrug01:
 
Kevin S said:
Wow you cant seam to grasp, that what Xavier did may have had something to do with the death of the potion by breeding a young male and powerfeeding. yet no one seams to question that, just that Brandon/Tom are partners in a project and yes they did maybe try to breed it to fast. but in my opinion that wasnt the cause of death. I believe it would have died in Qt.
Click to expand...

Re-read the first sentence of my post that you quoted. Xavier raised the snake in the same environment and bred it. You asked Deborah what a normal feeding schedule is, yet you would have us think you understand what power feeding is?

The cause of death isn't the issue. The issue is whether the buyers actions support them getting a refund, which it doesn't because their poor practices leave too many probabilities on their end Hence the first sentence of my post that you quoted. Stop trolling.
 
Kevin S said:
another thing that comes ot mind is i havent seen Xaviers Record/feeding card. Maybe it had not been eating well while he was breeding it and how long it actually took to gain the size it did 3 months 6 months? the card would help shed a light on this to understand what the potion had been going through, xaviers did state it ate 2 weeks proir but what about before that? most males do go off feed during breeding, maybe it was pushed to far before B/T recieved it.?:shrug01:
Click to expand...

You are pushing "suppositions" rather than coming to conclusions on the FACTS presented.

One fact that stands out in your supposition is: The animal defecated (there was a picture) after the defecation...the stomach was empty...since the buyer had stated he had NOT fed the animal..it shoots holes in your supposition that the snake was not feeding while with Xavier.
 
DesertRat73 said:
It's in the second post of the thread Kevin.:rofl:
Click to expand...

that is a few dates where is the card that will show more than just a smal window in time "and 4 meals in just over 2 weeks isnt alot?". As to trolling, I have every right as you. If you dont like my post dont repond

And the cause of death is what matters the most, next to a refund of some sort.

As to the keeping of Ball pythons I have been keeping them for almost 15 years, I might not be an expert but Im more than aware what is and isnt power feeding.
 
deborahbroadus said:
You are pushing "suppositions" rather than coming to conclusions on the FACTS presented.

One fact that stands out in your supposition is: The animal defecated (there was a picture) after the defecation...the stomach was empty...since the buyer had stated he had NOT fed the animal..it shoots holes in your supposition that the snake was not feeding while with Xavier.
Click to expand...

wow, thats a pretty big hole. that show 1 maybe 2 meals , what it doesnt do is show the feeding pattern the snake had.
 
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