Breeding venomous

[Blackwater Reptiles]

I'm interested in a discussion about breeding venomous. I figured I'd break the ice on this board by posting *something.*

I'm working with Amelanistic C. atrox, as well as (normal)Western Masassaugas, Timber rattlesnakes, Canebrakes, Great Basin Rattlers, cottonmouths, Malayan pit vipers, and several other venomous species....

Let's start a positive trend...

Tom

 

[KDAPReptiles]

Great choice

That's a good selection. Id love to see a few pics. Also, I was under the impression Canes were now considered Timbers, again.
Xain

 

[NocturnalNature]

I also live in Va. (near Roanoke). What part are you located in?
I currently work with Gilas (Cinctum and Suspectum) and am looking into acquiring a trio of Red Pygmy Rattlesnakes.
Drop me an email any time if you feel like shooting the bull or are interested in getting together for a herping trip this season.
I know of several places which hold Timbers and am always looking fo new denning sites or places to view reptiles and amphibians(For photography purposes only).

 

[Blackwater Reptiles]

To Xain...

Timbers and Canebrakes are considered the same species. To me there are considerable differences, that I won't get into here, that give me enough reason to speak of the two in seperate terms....

To Jackie....

I'd be happy to take you to several of the places I go to "hunt" local species on the East Coast.... I live South and East of Richmond....

Tom

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Tom,

I wholeheartedly agree with you on Timbers and Canebrakes being different snakes from one another. I have worked with both and there are definitely differences.

I currently am only working with our GA native Southern and Northern Coppers and Eastern Cottonmouths(native hot species are the only ones we are allowed to keep here), but am looking to acquire at least one specimen of every native venomous to our state for my collection and would eventually like to breed one or two of the species(with the exception of Corals). I had one of my coppers give birth back in 2001 a couple months after getting her, and it was really cool and I'd like the opportunity to induce actual captive breeding.

It would be great to see pics of everyone's hots posted up. I will take some new photos and post them here as soon as I can.

Cheers!

 

[NocturnalNature]

This past year while out road cruising I found a Timber Rattlesnake with very interesting markings. It had the rusty red stripe completely running down its back. However it lacked the stripe behind the eyes which is typically found in Canebreaks.
All of the Timber Rattlesnakes I have encountered up until this one was very dark in color and did not have such distinct markings.
I would like to email a few pictures to someone in this discussion and see if they have seen a Timber before with this type of coloration/markings.
Any volunteers?
Jackie Lapradd

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Jackie,

you're definitely welcome to e-mail them to me. [email protected]

 

[NocturnalNature]

Rob,
I tried emailing the pictures but received an email stating that there was an error with your address.
This is the second time this has happened when trying to email someone with a "hotmail" address. Any suggestions on what I may be doing wrong?
Thanks
Jackie Lapradd

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

perhaps your file size is too big? That is usually the problem with hotmail accounts, they only hold and accept so much.

Are you trying to send several pictures or just one or two? Try sending only one and see what happens.

 

[Blackwater Reptiles]

Timbers and such

Hi Rob,

There certainly doesn't seem to be any mystery associated with breeding most of the "native" species of venomous. I think that the factor of being able to buy wild collected animals so cheaply, has prevented the captive breeding of many native species. Note how quickly amelanistic C. atrox and C. viridis were bred when $$$ were factored into the equation. You won't have any trouble breeding anything you can keep in your home state, and I bet that if you set your mind to breeding those coral snakes you would be a success at that too...

Jackie,

I'd be very happy to look at any snake pictures you may have. I do not consider myself to be an expert at Timber/canebrake identification, but I have looked at one or two. It might be more advantageous if you could post the pictures here for comments? If you prefer to email them, please include me on distribution: [email protected] I'll be happy to comment.....

I can say this... of the Timber Rattlesnakes that I have seen from Virginia, there do not appear to be many colors to choose from. Basic black or yellow is about all you get. I have seen some from West Virginia (and it puzzles me as to why there aren't more like this in Virginia.... probably are and I haven't seen them) that are what I call chocolate phase.... they look like the name implies.... I have one yellow, one black and one chocolate presently..... They're headed to a fellow, West of the Mississippi... in two weeks. I'm primarily interested in "Coastal" phase (aka Canebrakes) and BIG ones at that.... I have 2 males and am planning on adding three females in the spring.

Like Rob, I plan to keep a few native animals for breeding. As you more than likely know (for those who don't) it is not legal to sell native species here in Virginia without special permits.... this includes Kingsnakes and cornsnakes too folks..... I have looked into permits, and the only available permits do not include venomous species..... so, I can breed all I want, but I can have only five (legally) in possession..... so all babies have to be released into the wild or given away. I can't even trade them for other animals (legally), but my neighbor can run over as many as he wants to with his car, lawnmower or go cart, and he can chop them up by the gross with his garden hoe.... something is wrong with this picture.... Same thing with turtles, lizards, amphibians, you name it.....

I also like several non-lethal (yeah, I know the all *can* kill you) non-indigenous venomous species.... some of the tree snakes, particularly T. hageni (Hagen's tree viper) appeal to me because they are egg laying..... and they look just like Green Tree pythons.....

Thanks to both of you for replying to the thread BTW..... this is a refreshing change to the trolls and insults typical of an internet discussion....

 

[NocturnalNature]

Rob,
I sent the pictures to Tom. Hopefully he will have better luck forwarding them to you.

Tom, I agree with your statement regarding the laws about selling/trading offspring. While I think they were put into effect for a noble reason there should be some sort of process which allows for trading in LEGALLY obtained/produced animals.
Have you had much luck with successful reproduction of any of your animals?

Back to Rob, What are the laws regarding the selling of captive born offspring in your state?

 

[NocturnalNature]

Here is my first attempt at uploading a photo.
If it doesn't work hopefully Tom can figure out how to make them available to this group.
Thanks

 

[NocturnalNature]

Same snake, different angle.
Sorry about the picture quality! I had to reduce them so much that the actual colors have suffered somewhat.

 

[NocturnalNature]

Here is a pretty Copperhead found in the same area.
I have a fondness for these snakes! They are typically very snappy and defensive whereas most of the Rattlesnakes I have found are VERY laid back. Almost to the point of being able to pick them up and dance around with them(although I haven't tried it!).

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Jackie,

that is a nice looking Timber to me. A good friend of mine has a pair of bright yellow Timbers and both of them display the reddish-brown dorsal stripe and kind of resemble the animal you posted. Actually, if you have ever read Manny Rubio's Rattlesnake: Portrait of a Predator, you will see pictures of at least of these Timbers(they were his originally and he gave them to my friend a few years ago). I don't remember if both were in the book or not, but there is a picture of a Timber in water that I remember clearly, and that is one of the pair. The Timber you posted is very nice and I like that Copper too. Copperheads have always been special to me as well.

Tom, I like your designation of the Canebrakes as the "Coastal Phase" of the Timber Rattler. And I know that there is no major mystery involving the captive breeding of our native hots, but I am simply not in a situation right now where I am set up to do it(don't have pairs of anything ). And when it comes to Corals, thanks for the vote of confidence, but I'm currently not up to the task of getting adults to eat, let alone a bunch of hatchlings But it would definitely be cool to see someone captively breed them(has anyone bred them in captivity yet?).

As far as the laws here go with selling native hots, it is not specifically stated as illegal, but it is VERY frowned upon and honestly more trouble than it is worth. But I keep as exact collection data as possible on my natives(most are WC or born from WC females) and I plan on breeding animals from the same or close-by localities together so that if I produce babies, I will be able to release them back where the parent stock originated(assuming the area is still safe for them to move back into). Unfortunately, though, I do have a couple of truly urban Coppers that I probably will never be able to repatriate. It is a funny situation in Atlanta as Copper population densities are DENSER inside the city limits than for 20 miles outside the city limits. I don't see breeding hots as any kind of enterprise or anything, but truly something strictly 100% for my enjoyment.

I would definitely love to have some tree vipers. If it's arboreal chances are I like it. But my absolute favorites are the Atheris vipers. They are just TOO cool.

 

[Dan W]

I would also love to talk about breeding hots as well as caring for them. I currently am working with Canebrake Rattlers and Russells Vipers. I am hoping to get started again with Blacktail Rattlers and Urutus. Anyone have any experience with them? I am also fond of Great Basin Rattlers and would like some more info on them and pics if anyone has them. Currently I am trying to figure out the best captive conditions for Gaboon and Rhino Vipers. And I am trying to learn as much as possible on the Red Spitters. Whew!! My email is [email protected]

Feel free to email me....

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Rattlesnake]

When were the two snakes considered to be one and the same? According to 'Rattlesnakes' by L. M. Klauber-forward by H. W. Green,1997; they are considered to be two different animals. Timber rattlesnake (C. horridus horridus) and Canebreak rattlesnake (C. horridus atricaudatus)