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Briar Patch Herps RIP OFF!!! BEWARE!!

K

keithhamlin

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A very reputable green tree python breeder contacted me today and emailed me a picture of my own '01 John Mack Hi Yellow Female Green Tree Python that Briar Patch Herps was attempting to pass off as the sire to what were described as J Mack Hi Yellow chondros on they were selling on Kingsnake.com.

When asked questions about the animals, Briarpatchherps responded with a photo of a Hi Yellow chondro. To the breeders surprise as well as mine, it was a picture of my snake that I posted on Kingsnake.com in April of this year when I was attempting to sell her. Briarpatchherps actually offered to trade me some ball pythons for it!!

Here is the original email from Briarpatchherps to me offering ball pythons for it.

"----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 5:50 PM
Subject: Message about: '01 J MACK Hi Yellow Female

> Any interest in trading for some nice baby ball python varients? Reduced
patterns, granites, labyrinths, black backs, jungles $35-$70 animals
>
> Wm
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> Click on (or cut and paste into you browser's
> location window) the URL below to view the ad that
> this message is in response to.
>
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?de=211418&cat=33
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------"

Please beware with this organization as it is definitely not legitimate and is certainly misrepresenting the animals it is selling.
The original email trail between the breeder and briarpatchherps is also in my possession. If nothing else this type of misleading activity just proves the point to go with a reputable breeder of the species you seek vice some reptile peddler. It also hurts those legitimate reptile dealers when something like this happens. Amazing. Guy can't make a buck honestly so he has to commit fraud and steal from honest hard working people. Makes you wonder how many people may have bought Hets from him that may have been truly normals?!?


Thank you,

Keith M. Hamlin
[email protected]
 
Hi Kieth,
Just to let you know, he offered me that chondro for a trade. I will look for the pic that he sent me in the email
 
did you contact him in regards to the using of your photographs?
because it could all be just an accident.

I don't know his story.
But I myself have pictures in my computer of other peoples snakes. It is part of my screen saver. When I want a snake theme I just tell my computer to go and get them out of the snake folder where all the pics are. But only when I want a snake theme. Let's not talk about when I want another theme ;)

anyway you might want to contact him about it
 
ALREADY DONE

The person who reported this to me had contacted him regarding the animal in the pic and he did see it. That was when he explained it was the sire.

I also contacted briar patch herps regarding the use of my photo. I have not yet received a reply. To many things don't add up for it to be an accident. We are not talking $50 ball pythons here.

I agree with your philosophy of always giving the benefit of the doubt.

Keith Hamlin
 
Subj: Re: chondros_
Date: 7/11/2004 7:16:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: BriarPatch Herps
To: MRico79

______
The photos I sent you of the "Sire & Dam" were supplied to me by the breeder of these animals, Karen Waters from Indianpolis stating they were her breeders from John. She had documentation from "Reptiles by Mack" and had a nice display set up with who I assume was her husband so there was no reason to doubt her, this was the Midwest breeders show in 2002 . When I decided to go a different direction on projects I got back with Karen looking for supportive lineage info and that's the photos she sent me.

______ Any information you can supply as to whose they are would be helpful....I'll check with her and Mack next to get the full story.

Thanks chief,
Wm

Subj: Attn: Karen Waters_
Date: 5/18/2004 3:19:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: BriarPatch Herps
To: [email protected]


______ ____ Mrs. Waters,

I've recently decided to sell a young pair of green tree pythons I recieved from you in August of 2002 at Brian Hahns Expo. If you could supply me with the pedigree information on these animals it would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
William Horn

Subj: Re: Attn: Karen Waters_
Date: 5/23/2004 11:49:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)


[email protected] wrote:


______ ____ Mrs. Waters,

I've recently decided to sell a young pair of green tree pythons I recieved from you in August of 2002 at Brian Hahns Expo. If you could supply me with the pedigree information on these animals it would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
William Horn



Hello William. Here are the animal images you asked for. The olive green animal is the producing yellow biak female and the brighter grass green animal is the yellow_mack male. -K.Waters


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Subj: High yellow line_
Date: 7/11/2004 7:26:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: BriarPatch Herps
To: [email protected]
File: F28-37H01.ZIP (195344 bytes) DL Time (49333 bps): < 1 minute


______ John,

____________ I picked up a pair of animals in 2002 that were sold to me as being from your high yellow line from a Karen Waters Indianpolis, Indiana. She had purchased her breeders from you as yearlings so it would have been roughly a minimum of six years ago. Does the name ring a bell or do you have any other info? I'm sending photos of the animals she labeled as her sire & dam, take a look and see if either look familiar.

Thanks,
Wm

Subj: John Mack High yellow Green trees._
Date: 7/11/2004 7:36:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: BriarPatch Herps
To: [email protected]


______ Karen,

____________ Did you send me the correct breeder information on the Sire & Dam from Macks high yellow line that produced the 0.0.2 I purchased in 2002? I picked them up at the Midwest Breeders show in Indianapolis and requested the info from you earlier this year, get back to me ASAP please.

Wm



**I haven't heard back from Karen Waters or John Mack yet ** but did find the previous correspondence.
 
There are already a few threads started where patches accidently tried to sell normal balls as proven morphs too. Its funny to see him up her again, and now hes using others photos......NICE.

Another trajic pic problem, eh Bill?
 
IT IS ALL ABOUT CREDIBILITY

I have read the reply from Briar Patch Herps. Honestly, I do not believe him but that is my personal opinion.

As a professional businessman he should not put out animals for sale that he does not have 100% visibility on. If you don't know for sure that the animals are Hi Yellow...for instance does this Karen Waters normally deal with these animals? I can tell you I have never heard of her on Chondroweb or the Morelia Viridis forum.

I would be interested to know her asking price for the "Hi Yellow" animals. Anyway, it was his responsibility to ensure the animals were what he advertised them to be. If they are not, yes it is your credibility that is at stake. You can bring the other individual down with you but, you will lose customers regardless.

Keith Hamlin
[email protected]
 
Subj: Re: John Mack High yellow Green trees_
Date: 7/12/2004 7:36:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)



truth is william I lost the male last year while on vaccation. my nephew was house sitting and caring for the animals-he fed them one day and the male died the following evening._a very expensive loss to say the least, I was disgusted! the photo of the male I sent you is from the same bloodline but he is not my animal. I rushed to reply and sent you what I had instead of dragging all of this out-please understand. -K. Waters

[email protected] wrote:
__
______ Karen,

____________ Did you send me the correct breeder information on the Sire & Dam from Macks high yellow line that produced the 0.0.2 I purchased in 2002? I picked them up at the Midwest Breeders show in Indianapolis and requested the info from you earlier this year, get back to me ASAP please.

Wm



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**Mack still hasn't replied to verify who this lady is**
 
You guys think this matters to Bill?

He doesnt need your business, and has nothing to prove. If you dont like the fact that he misrepresents animals, then dont buy from him! After all, we have nothing better to do than try to make him out to be the bad guy.

Does this all sound familliar? Yes, it does! It is Bill's defense when he gets called on stuff like this.

Isnt it, Bill?
 
Subj:
Date: 7/18/2004 5:11:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
File: 0206-0214-18902.xls (16896 bytes) DL Time (48000 bps): < 1 minute
Sent from the Internet (Details)




William-i found the disc the pedigree was on and have added it to this email let me know if it doesnt come through. im not sure if i did it right or not. -K. Waters


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Hi everyone I was contacted by Briarpatch Herps about a week ago with a trade offer I do have the pics in my email here is the message he sent me

1.1 late 02 John Mack high yellow line x high yellow line Biak $4200
0.1 02 P. Kahl x T. Walsh white speckled patternless Aru $1200 (high blue parents)

Photos of my animals and their parents attached.

Wm
Thanks again Paul Wyble
 
I had noticed the ads on Kingsnake and immediately smelled a rat (no seller name + no photos of supposed high end chondros typically = scam in the works) but since it didn't concern me, I didn't get involved.

Then a week or two later, this one hit home when a friend of mine emailed me the pics to see if it was a good trade.

Long story short, he was trying to trade a friend of mine out of about $4,500-6,000 worth of animals. That friend of mine is a well known and respected member here and deals primarily with terrestrial boids...I'll leave it at that to keep his name out of it.

Needless to say, I told him not to do it and that all three animals were probably worth about $700 total.

As for Chondros, I keep a small colony of them and I'm a big fan of and very familiar with John Mack's (I consider John and Amy Mack to be friends) HY line of Chondros, as well as Trooper Walsh's Chondros.

Here's one of two that are being represented as a John Mack High Yellow.
HY1.jpg


Here's another typical Biak, the other one being represented as a John Mack High Yellow.
HY2.jpg


Those first two animals are typical Biaks, the most commonly imported (therefore least expensive) Chondro on the market. For those who don't know, these are worth (retail) around $250-300 each. Biaks typically keep their baby yellow coloration for 3 years or so, so they are commonly passed off as "high yellow" by unscrupulous dealers/brokers who don't know their Chondros very well.


Here's the one being represented as a Trooper Walsh Chondro.
AruFemale.jpg


Any of you who know Chondros can see that this is a straight "Aru Type." Furthermore, those familiar with Aru types know that this animal looks very thin and underweight, as Aru types are typically very round bodied Chondros.


Do I believe that this is a simple mistake? Um...not for a minute.

There are a couple of very good reasons why William's Kingsnake ads don't list his name or show pictures of the animals.

1. In hopes that whoever he bought them from wouldn't put 2+2 together and see what a crook he is.

2. To make sure that anyone who knows anything about Chondros didn't see photos of the animals...because he probably knew that they'd call him on it.
 
Im glad someone else sees his crap hes trying to pull. He has continued to say he has some high end animals and when I ask him to post the paperwork, no show. I have been gone for a while now, but i checked my email a while back and I was offered these "cb' animals and just ignored it becuase I knew they were misrepresented.


briarcrap herps is at it again
 
Hi everyone. Anthony, he offered me the same animal and I had asked him for another pic. This is the pic he sent me
 

Attachments

  • arufull.jpg
    arufull.jpg
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i do not know about you, but I can't even tell what the animal looks like and he wanted $1200 for her. I am not into chondros and even I could tell that animal was thin and possibly a w/c
 
I urge anyone who is looking to do business with briarpatch herps in the future to check out the other threads. I called him out on his scam a while back on gtps and you could see him hitting around the bush. Others also have figured out his ball python scam too. In short summary he likes to trade...a lot! And just be careful what hes trading you, because most likely the animal is mis-represented. I havnt found a post where his animals are not healthy, but they are just misrepresented.
 
mr horn purchased the female and the high yellow offspring from me and were produced by me. for the past twelve years my husband and i have been breeding green tree pythons with stock from john mack, fort worth zoo, peter kahl, trooper walsh and some ltc we had imported a number of years ago. i would be more than happy to talk to anyone about my animals or this subject in particular but no one has made an attempt to contact me when bill has listed my contact information. the animals originally came with a cd i had burned containing the bloodline information of the animals and through some mishap was unusable but a new copy has been mailed to him as well as emailed. this topic seems to have got out of hand and turned into nothing more than slanderous accusations. -Karen
___________________________________________________
we only work through trade shows and magazine ads so feel free to visit us at any of the midwest shows or in daytona next month.
 
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