Buyer Beware of Steve Ori Forgotten Realm

[A Forgotten Realm]

It never ceaces to amaze me how so many people can make a judgement about a person which might affect his and his children's livelihood based on the story of one individual, with an agenda, that is completly unknown to them. It was asked if I was informed about this thread, I was not. This individual never mentioned that he picked out an animal (M3), he agreed with the price of $450.00 and sent me his shipping address. He changed his mind after I required $40.00 shipping fee, but first held up all other buyers asking for more pics of the babies, parents and references which I gladly sent. I turned down two possible buyers interested in the same animal. A deposit on a new clutch is to guarantee your place in line to pick an animal. That deposit is then transfered to the price of the animal selected. I posted a pic of two animals with my original add and both of these were available to him. If he didn't have the money for the additional shipping and explained this to me I would have worked with him on it. As it is he put me through alot of work, pissed off other buyers, and cost me sales. One of my depositers wife wrote me and asked if I could let them pay on time ($20.00 a month) because they had a baby on the way. I told her that was no problem. It surprises me that no one on this board was willing to investigate the many other positive posts by my customers over the years and just throw out an opinion based on what one person has said. If any of you aren't just interested in gossip and want to investigate further you can email me and I'll send you a list of references with most of the well known breeders on it that I either know or have done business with in the past. I used to post on my adds that the guarantee was toward an animal and how it was represented. If you felt that the animal you purchased was not as represented I would take it back and refund your money no questions asked. I've never had one person ask for their money back on any animal I've ever sold. I guess I've gotten lazy over time and just hit the signature button.

Drew, if you'd like to continue this nonsesce I will be glad to post all of your emails to this board. We both know how you'll look if I do that.

I would be more than happy to hear the opinion of other breeders on this matter. After all this man has done I wouldn't be surprised if quite a number of these opinions were from friends of his.


Sincerely,
Steve Ori
A Forgotten Realm

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Good to see you post, Steve.

It is always nice to get BOTH sides of the story here as opposed to one side. Unfortunately, in many situations we are only presented with one side, and have to base our opinions on just that side.

I stated that I felt that if Drew's presentation was accurate, then yes, I feel he would be owed a refund. But you have now presented a different side and everyone here can now make a more informed opinion of you and your business, as well as a more informed opinion regarding Drew's part in this.

If you have copies of all the e-mails between Drew and yourself concerning this transaction and the terms you guys had worked out, please post them here so we can get a more balanced view of the events in question.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Steve,

I think you'll find that most (if not all) of the people posting on this thread have never met Drew in any way. They were simply going by what he stated in his thread. If memory serves, the very first post in response to his initial statments was based on Drew telling the truth. That caveat has been maintained throughout, as far as I can see.

However, now that you've posted, please continue. Post those emails, and give the full account. That is the only way that the BOI really works, and when it does, it has been my experience that the proper adjectives (good, bad, or indifferent) are assorted out to the correct parties involved.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Steve,

I agree with what was posted above. Here is the first sentence in my initial post:

..."By the way you describe it it seems a refund is of order...

My apologies if you feel my opinion was somewhat not objective before hearing your side.

With some exceptions I usually think people are being truthfull when posting their experiences.

I agree that it would be useful if you post the e-mail exchange between both of you.

Regards.

 

[Wilomn]

I'm jumping on the bandwagon too. I said in my post that "if indeed the above is true", in reference to what he said about you refunding his money if there was no striper that met his needs. Please post all the emails you have and if we've been lied to here you will some opinions change. Put please do post your side of things.

Wes Pollock

 

[A Forgotten Realm]

Hello everyone. I have to be honest with you, I had begun to think that this site had become a gossip column. But from the responces I see from my post I have to apoligze. As far as posting the emails, I've left that up to Drew. I'm not looking to embarase or degrade him. If he wants to drop it now I have no problem. I'm an old hippy from So. Cal born in the early 50's and have no desire for vendetta. If he would like to keep this going then I would ask someones advice on how to post all of the emails. I keep all emails till I'm sure the customer is happy with his animal, then I erase them. I've posted nothing here that I can't back up with emails from Drew. Like I said before, if the only problem is that he doesn't have the money for shipping I will gladly give him the M3 that he picked and work with him on the shipping fee. No problem. I feel this is mostly a misunderstanding and I'd rather not see anybody's reputation hurt. I await his decision.
Sincerely,
Steve Ori
A Forgotten Realm

 

[sputnik]

STEVE

Good to see the other side of the story is emerging ... steve, you should be able to copy and paste them into your posts here!

 

[Da_Ru]

Please Steve, Post all my e mails.

It was asked if I was informed about this thread, I was not.

Drew,
As with all companies if we can't supply you get
your money back. As you asked " If there are no more
reverse stripes can I get my money back". Well there
are more reverse stripes, you just don't want to pay
for them. If you want to take it to the BOI well
that's up to you.

Do you remember this e mail.


The reason I want a refund is because I dont think the m3 male is worth 450. It was not because I dont want to pay shipping. When I first put a deposit down was for a good represtation of a reverse stripe. You did not show me any pics I was just going by your judgement. M3 hardly has a reverse stripe. If you would check your e mail more often than once a week I did change my mind in a 1 week time so you wouldnt loose any customers wanting that male. Here are some pics so people can judge and please post all my e mails. I got nothing to hide.

Here is M3 450

and here is M2

 

[Da_Ru]

Please Steve, Post all my e mails.

It was asked if I was informed about this thread, I was not.

Drew,
As with all companies if we can't supply you get
your money back. As you asked " If there are no more
reverse stripes can I get my money back". Well there
are more reverse stripes, you just don't want to pay
for them. If you want to take it to the BOI well
that's up to you.

Do you remember this e mail.


The reason I want a refund is because I dont think the m3 male is worth 450. It was not because I dont want to pay shipping. When I first put a deposit down was for a good represtation of a reverse stripe. You did not show me any pics I was just going by your judgement. M3 hardly has a reverse stripe. If you would check your e mail more often than once a week I did change my mind in a 1 week time so you wouldnt loose any customers wanting that male. Here are some pics so people can judge and please post all my e mails. I got nothing to hide.

Here is M3 450

and here is M2

 

[The BoidSmith]

We can probably have a better idea of what was said once Steve posts the e-mails. In the meantine, and for those that are not much into boas, here is another picture of a reverse stripe posted by Juan Infante a while ago. Hopefully it will load.

Regards.

 

[HerpVenue]

I do not know who is who or what is what.

a deposit is a deposit.
which means it ensures your place to buy an animal you want.
If you do find an animal you want.....Then your deposit will go towards the purchase price of said animal.

here is another point of view.
If you put a deposit on a certain clutch
and it fails to produce the "morph" you are looking for then you should get a refund.

and yet another point of view.
If you put a deposit on a certain clutch
and it does produce the"morph" that you want......but you think it is ugly and it is not to your liking.....then you have a choice of loosing your money or waiting for more clutches to be born.

Now.....if the only reverse striped offered was m3
well a refund should be in order. After all m3 would not make any reverse striped fans to happy.

Now if other animals were offered.....but the buyer refuses to send extra money for whatever the other animals really cost....
well too bad too sad. A deposit goes towards the purchase of the animal. A deposit does not pay for the animal....unless the animal was the same price as the deposit.

okay I hope you all followed.
attached is what a reverse striped looks like to me

 

[Da_Ru]

Now.....if the only reverse striped offered was m3
well a refund should be in order. After all m3 would not make any reverse striped fans to happy.

Thanks Ritchie

I don't think he can show me a better looking reverse stripe male that is for sale. Therefore I should get my deposit back. Agree

Here is his phot gallery

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?user=3965&cat=500&thumb=1

 

[HerpVenue]

Drew you wanted Reverse Striped correct?

m7
labeled striped but I do not see any reverse striped. hence the $200 price tag

m6
good stripe but sold

m5
"shows reverse striped genetics"
but I see no reverse stripe.
sorta like an albino showing the albino gene. but being normal colored. huh?

m4
This male is extremely pink (see how bad my photographic skills are, lol), with very thin saddles and is missing a saddle. Faded sides, with the gray ghost side stripe. A very beautiful animal. Asking $350.00

I still see no reverse striped tail.
as far as the missing saddle. Thanks for pointing it out. I did not see it. I did not see it because it was missing.

m3
two saddles connected together does not a reverse striped make.

m2
a good example of what a reverse striped buyer wants to buy.
unfortunately it is not for sale. and if it is for sale....it would cost a lot more than the agreed amount.




If it was my money.
if it was for a reverse striped animal
if the agreement was truly for nothing over $500
I would want my money back.

there are lots of very good females.
But the agreement was for a male.

 

[Bobby Douglass]

Steve, I must admit I don't know anything about boa morphs, so may I ask what makes that a reverse striped boa? Is that the best "reverse striped" male boa that you have available for the $450 + shipping price? Thanks.

 

[sputnik]

DEPOSIT REFUND

It still looks like a refund of the deposit is in order, which it seems has been the case all along!

 

[DISCERN]

I agree.....

In my opinion....if someone sends you money for a snake and is told that you can get your money back if you don't like any of what is produced, then what is the problem giving back his refund?

Steve may have supplied some reverse striped, but if none are to Drew's liking....then Drew shouldn't have to lose a dime.

The fact that Steve is so reluctant to send back a refund troubles me. I am not saying that Steve is a bad guy, and after reading his posts on here, he seems very reasonable. My opinion is that Steve should just send him back his money, especially if he is not planning on getting any snake from him. The M3 has no stripe, so why should Drew have to pay $450 for that?

Time for good business practices to be set in, as well as good representation of what is for sale.

My 2 cents.....and I hope this all works out for both sides.

Billy Fraser

 

[The BoidSmith]

Of the two animas posted only M2 shows INO a reverse stripe. Having said this, and again, in order to be fair, it would still be important to read the e-mail exchange between both parties. Drew has already stated that he doesn't mind if they are posted.

Regards.

 

[bpc]

M3 is not a reverse stripe. The other one is, but not by much. And I'm not even going to try to figure out what is for sale and what isn't. If Steve can't send out a good reverse stripe now that the clucth has arrived he needs to refund the money. The deposit was for a reverse stripe w/ satisfaction guaranteed as I recall. The buyer is not being offered a snake that satisfies him therefor he should get a refund. Not difficult. M3 is a nice looking snake, but it is not a reverse stripe.

 

[The BoidSmith]

If he would like to keep this going then I would ask someones advice on how to post all of the emails. I keep all emails till I'm sure the customer is happy with his animal, then I erase them.

Steve,

At this point both probably Drew and yourself want this issue resolved. Well...maybe Drew is a little more anxious as so far he is out of the money and the boa.

Here is what I do when I have to post an e-mail "converstion". First I open my e-mail program and simultaneously Microsoft Word. I start copying and pasting individual e-mails and replies on a Word document. Once I'm done with all of them I highlight all the text in the Word document, go edit/copy, then go to this thread, click the reply button and go to edit/paste in the box. Some probably use a different method but this one has worked for me.

Hope this helped.

 

[A Forgotten Realm]

I have been dealing with and raising snakes since 1964. I have never screwed anyone in all of that time. Here are the emails involved in this cituation.

Steve,
Do you know what my place is on the deposit. Also how are the babies doing have they shed yet. When will be a good time to call. Thanks Drew

Hey Drew,
You've got the first pic buddy. Call most anytime, I've just been alittle under the weather lately. All have shed for the first time and will be fed today for their first meal. I'll keep you informed.

Steve,
Any pics yet. Thanks

Hey Drew,
Not yet, one more shed to go, should be within a week or so. I'll post on Kingsnake as soon as I take the pics. Don't worry you've got the first pick

Hey Andrew,
The pics are done. This is my add on Kingsnake
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=8&de=74138 . You have the first pic so I need for you to pic asap as there are three more people with deposits that have to pic and a fellow locale breeder who has seen them in the flesh wants five to ten of them depending on how fast he can raise the money. We're all waiting for you partner. Get back to me as soon as you can.

I will take male 2 or male 3. lol

Hey Drew,
You can have male 3 for 450.00. Tell me where your located, zip code, and which way you'd like shipping and I'll give you an exact amount to paypal or overnight Money Order. You picked an awesome animal. No M3 your gonna love him. Get back to me asap.

Drew McHenry
901 Jefferson Ave
Norristown Pa, 19403

Hey Drew,
You sent $100.00, no. m3 is $450.00 and shipping is $40.00. Remaining balance is $390.00. I'll ship as soon as you tell me your weather is warm enough. You can paypal or send an overnight money order. I'll send you a reciet and complete paperwork with the animal. As soon as I get the funds I'll put sold on M3 on the gallery. Get back to me.

Steve,
Can I get it for 450 shipped. Thanks

Hey Drew,
I haven't heard from you and need to know what's going on. I'm holding up all sales waiting for you to decide. I'm gonna give you the email addy of a person who bought a het from an out breeding of these pastel stripes last year. They paid in full in advance for one of these and have picked out M6. My picture taking isn't the greatest but I assure you if Pete Kahl or any of the other big name breeders produced these animals they would be about 50% more. Talk to Lonni, that may help you make up your mind.

Do you have a pic of the parents. Thanks
the mother stripe

Steve,
I hate to be a pain but can you take more pics of male 3. Thanks

Steve,
I was hoping for a male like the one you are keeping. Since there was only 1 with that amount of a reverse stripe can I have my deposit back. Thanks

Hey Drew, You've caught me at a bad time financially. Bad for me good for you. Make me an offer on the M2 reverse striped male that I was keeping. You just might be able to talk me out of him.

$450

HEy Drew, I'm sorry but I'm not letting that guy go for 450.00. I've got others listed for 500.00 that I don't like as much as the m2. If you'd like to send me another 550.00 to make it a total of 650.00 shipped I'll send him to you. It's up to you. Deposits are non-refundable in this industry. I know of no company that would give you your money back. I'll give you a credit toward a future purchase if you like, which is more than most would do. I lost 375.00 myself this year because I couldn't come up with the remainder of the money for a pair of dh for ghost that I really wanted. Let me know what you decide.

Now most of you think I should refund his deposit. These animals were posted as pastel stripes NOT REVERSE STRIPES. I've bred these animals for a number of years putting in new genetics. They are now genetic for three different types of striping. All have a ghost stripe on the side running from head to tail, some have a dorsal stripe like the Kahl line, some have a reverse stripe, and some have or show sighns of all three genetics. Stripes are very variable as any breeder will tell you and when your buying a stripe your buying a geneotype not a phenotype. You can produce super stripes (head to tail) from a slightly striped animal or slightly striped animals from a super stripe, you never know what to expect. With the add titled " striped pastels" that Drew responded to and paid a deposit on, I placed a pic of a reverse stripe and a dorsal stripe. He never said he had to have a male reverse stripe until the end as you can see from the emails. This after I turned down two possible customers for M3 and held up my othere depositers till he made his selection. What do I tell the other people who put in there 100.00 deposit and had to wait on him?
He says now that the animal wasn't to his likeing for 450.00 but as you can see that wasn't the case till I asked for the shipping fee.