Cage height?

[caliscott]

I am building some cages for an indigo. I have a 6 feet by 2 feet footprint available. I can't make it any wider due to a door swing. I was going to go 2 feet high just to make the cuts easier. I could go as high as 3 feet.

How much cage height does a full grown indigo need?

 

[thesnakeman]

Scott,
One foot is enough, two is plenty. Indigos are mostly fossoreal,{ground dwelling}. Unless you plan to add live plants, and or some type of climbing apparatus. Square foot horizontal area is far more important than head room for indigos. Longer is better, 6, 8, 10 feet even. But if you build for cribos, use an opposite strategy, as they are at least partially arboreal. Come on over to www.indigosforever.org
T.

 

[epidemic]

Actually,

I have encountered several wild D. couperi in trees and most all of mine will utilize climbing opportunities when provided, so I would be inclined to provide as much "head room" as possible and provide furniture for climbing opportunities, as the exercise will do them good.
I recall the first D. couperi I found basking in a tree, as I thought it was a motorcycle tire at first glance! However, should the choice ever be to go with height "or" floor space, as Tony has indicated, floor space should be given first consideration...

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[thesnakeman]

An adult indigo snake in a cage with climbing furniture, is much like a bull in a china cabinet. Stuff will get broken, tipped over, and destroyed. And it is entirely possible that when a branch breaks, or tips, it could fall into the glass front, and break it. Worse case scenario, your snake could injure itself, or break the glass and escape. In my opinion, unless you plan to build an enormous cage where the climbing opportunities are well away from the glass front, I would not bother. If you wish to increase the indigos opportunities for something to do, you can use my sewer pipe method. Place sections of 6" pvc pipe inside the cage with elbows, and Ts, Much like a hamster habitat. And simply reconfigure them when the snake gets board with it. If you decide to allow your indigo to climb in it's cage, just beware of the damage it can do to the cage and itself, when a branch breaks or tips over. Make sure you use very strong stuff, and make sure that stuff is securely fastened to the cage wall.

And I am very wary of wood furniture for snake cages. Especially wood collected from the wild. Wood furniture can harbor all kinds of nasty things, like mites, crypto, and who knows what. Unless you bake it in the oven, you can't be certain what it has.

Yes, Ive read several accounts of indigos climbing trees in the wild. But then again, monkeys sometimes swim too. My big males climb around inside their cages all winter,.... even though there is nothing to climb on. And several times a day, I hear a big THUMP from the snake room, when they fall. It worries me, and I would not reccomend encouraging that behaviour. Indigos are not built for climbing, although they do, they aren't really good at it. Monkeys are not built for swimming, although they do, sometimes. Good luck with that cage.
T.

 

[epidemic]

I would assume, one familiar with working with large snakes would realize the need to secure such furniture within the enclosure, as to prevent such from being tossed about. While Drymarchon are large acticve snakes, they are not nearly the "bulls in the china shop" you would have us believe.
Yes, many primates swim and most folks who maintain such in captivity provide opportunities for such. Also, having worked with Drymarchon for almost 30 years and observing them for 10 years in the wild, I can say with a bit of confidence; they are quite arboreal and to limit such specimens to the floor of their enclosures is quite uncalled for, should one be able to present such an opportunity for climbing.
Also, I have not encountered a single report of C. serpentis being contracted via contact from natural wood and many species of wood are impervious to mites, I have used cypress branches for years to no ill effect. However, I do prefer to use artificial branches now, as such are much easier to clean and I feel as though cypress should not be harvested for such reasons...

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[thesnakeman]

All I know , is what I observe with my indigos, in particular Mongo. He IS very much like a bull in a China cabinet,...BIG, heavy, powerfull, and not too graceful. And they do have opportunity to climb in, and over their tunnels. I make vertical, as well as horizontal twists in the pipes. Just not way up high where they might hurt themselves, or break something. And while I cannot definitely pin crypto on wood, I did have one indigo die from crypto, and I was using some wild collected wood at that time. Never again.

What this boils down to is a matter of opinion, {{And we all know what opinions are like!}}, and what spacial resources are available to the individual keeper. I don't think this guy has all that much room. Personally I like to give my indigos as much space as I can possibly provide. And if this guy wants to encourage climbing/arboreal activity with his indigos, so be it. But he should know ahead of time, all the possible implications. At some point, some day, I plan to build some giant room size, walk in enclosures, with natural subsrate floors, plants, grasses, palmettos, and trees, and a big swimming hole, complete with fish, amphibians, anoles, geckos,tortoises, and small birds. But for now, I am restricted by the space available in my home. And I suspect, Scott has the same problem. So if he wants to make it 3 feet high, he can. But It's not really necessary. So my recommendation is to give that snake as much room as you have to give. But I would be afraid to encourage too much climbing, and if I did encourage climbing, I would be careful about how I did it. And if he limits his cage height to say, 1.5 ft., he can then build a second cage on top, or a second level for that cage, and/or have room for a breeding pair. In the end, I think indigos like to move period. I don't think they care which direction, as long as they have enough space to move around, and enough stuff to explore. Especially if you take them out frequently. Just don't keep an adult indigo in a 2x2 enclosure that only gets cleaned monthly, and feed it only chicken necks like someone we both know does. Jeff uses cages that are 4x8 and I don't know how high. But I would say that is big enough to safely incorporate some climbing furniture. But Jeff has the space for that. Scott, on the other hand, is limited to 2x6. And I would say that's not enough to safely incorporate climbing furniture. When the snake reaches adult size, and it falls,...and it will fall if it climbs, it could easily fall against the glass, or plexiglass, and hurt itself, in a cage that's only 2 ft. wide. I use Vision cages which are about 2.5 ft. deep, 6 ft. long, and about 2 ft. high. So I don't really have enough hieght available for climbing. And If I could, I would sqeeze them down lower, and longer. But again, it's all about personal opinion, which is based on personal experience. And it's about space available. So Scott, whatever you do, just be careful, and aware of ALL the possibilities. My experience tells me that for your limited space, my method would work fine. In the end, it's all up to you. Good luck,
T.

 

[epidemic]

Tony, Tony, Tony

You cannot make a generalized statement regarding a species based upon the observation of a few captive specimens over the course of a few years. Once you have many years of observing dozens of animals, both within the wild and captivity, then you can make such generalizations with a degree of certainty. This is much like the discussion of temperament among D. corais, as many will describe the species as high strung and openly defensive, based mostly from their observations of only a few specimens, which I find quite disappointing, as such will cause many potential keepers to turn the other cheek and not attempt to work with these magnificent creatures, based upon the observations of a few individuals who have happened to have a poor experience with a specimen or two.
The truth is, if you design the enclosure around the species to be housed within and you have studied up on the species, you should have no problems providing a suitable enclosure harboring a variety of enrichment opportunities and I find that providing opportunities fro enrichment, especially for specimens as intelligent as Drymarchon, to be equally rewarding for the keeper, as you will provide yourself with an opportunity to observe behavior and activities among your charges many never have the opportunity to experience…

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[epidemic]

One more thing

As I recall, it was “suspected” that C. serpentis caused the demise of your D. couperi, as such was never clinically diagnosed. In the future, it would be best to make certain you indicate such was suspected and not indicate such as fact without an accurate clinical diagnosis, as there are a great number of pathogens which could have been blamed for the demise of your snake.
I would also like to point out, C. serpentis is generally a water borne pathogen, so contracting such via enclosure furniture, whether wood or not, is highly unlikely unless such has been contaminated with fecal matter from an infected specimen and the captive specimen somehow ingests such. Also, you will find that most specimens harbor non-clinical levels of C. serpentis and such is generally not an issue, unless something else environmentally or pathologically stresses the animals immune system…

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[Wilomn]

I have successfully kept, though not for extended periods of time, indigos in cages that were 4 ft wide, 2 ft deep and 6 feet tall. The branches went top to bottom and were screwed into the sides of the cages. The entire volume was utilized by the snakes. I've kept yellowtails in the same setups.

I've also kept them in 4x2x2 ft cages with no ill affects.

I would think that in the wild an occasional fall is the norm, not the exception and these guys seem pretty tough.

Tony, you know I like you and mostly like what you say, but these are not porcelin dolls, they're big robust active snakes. There is more than one correct way to maintain them in healthy and seemingly, since they reproduced and ate well, happy conditions.

 

[BWSmith]

That is one disadvantage to using Visions (among other disadvantages), they are not easy to modify. With a homemade laminated wood or Plastic enclosure (yes Tony, some of us live in civilization where you can by sheets of HDPE, PVC, etc) you have much more versatility. Incorporating a shelf is virtually no effort. When offered a shelf, many species will happily utilize it. This includes traditionally terrestrial species such as Mole Kings, Farancia, Agkistrodon, Crotalus, Heteredon, etc. A shelf is simple, secure, and easy to replace if it gets severely befouled. Snakes get much more exercise climbing rather than crawling.

As far as Drys hurting themselves ........ bah, I wouldn't worry about it. You are talking about an animal that secures its prey through brute force. These are pretty tough critters, as are most snakes. I have a Gray Rat who's face was ran over by a car and he has been doing great for years (aside from the bulldog face). I have seen a 6' Gray Rat in south GA grab a squirrel and fall 40 feet out of a tree before, eat his meal, and crawl away. The two greatest threats of injury to a snake are cars and shovels, not their own weight.

 

[thesnakeman]

Holy Crap,.... Did I say, or do something to piss somebody off???

All I'm trying to tell this guy is that indigos are {{{MOSTLY}}}, not entirely fossoreal. And that all that vertical space is not necessary, and linear space is preferable. This is not a tree boa, it's an indigo for crying out loud. An animal who spends most of it's time underground, not cruising around the tree tops. And while it might benefit the animal to have climbing opportunities within it's enclosure, it is NOT NESSECARY. If it is,...prove it.

Another thing that I have learned is that when someone proclaims to be an expert on drymarchon, and that they know more than me, I almost always find evidence to the contrary. There are infinite ways to keep indigos. There is no perfect way. And there are no experts. There are a lot of folks who know a lot of stuff to varying degrees. But knowbody knows it all, and damned few know as much as they think.

The guy asked a simple friggin question, and I gave a simple friggin answer, which did not require rebuttal, or correction from anyone.

If you build an enclosure for an 8ft, heavy, powerful, active serpent, and you want to allow it to climb within that enclosure. I would say that you need a cage with a larger footprint than [2x6], what he has, unless you build a shelf like B.W. suggested. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. If you disagree, fine. But there really is no need to come on here and undermine , or belittle my knowledge and experience. I am not the village idiot, and I am getting tired of being treated like one. And I get pissed off when I see someone come in here and flash their superior wisdom. It makes me look like a dumb ass, and it makes you look like a smart ass! And it's totally uncalled for.

As far as the crypto issue,...I have studdied it intensely! And I still do not know how it got into that snake. But I do know that it did get into that snake. As I have stated before, it was confirmed at the Vet school at The University of Missouri, in Columbia. And none of us has what it takes to second guess that, as far as I'm concerned. I do not know how it got into my indigo, but it did, and he died, and it was confirmed. I have since eliminated everything that I can think of which may have brought it in. Including wood. And I reccomend others doing the same.

I did not mean to start a bloody firestorm over a simple question about cage height. But I guess I did. Or somebody did. Anyway, now I'm pissed off. So I think I'm just about done talking on these damned forums. All I wanted to do, was help the guy make a decision about building his cage, and I got jumped on. He asked a simple question , and I gave a simple and accurate answer. Then the whole thing got blown into a big fat pissing contest. And this seems to be a recurring theme, even though I am the guy who started this forum. So I'm done. No more damned forums for me. I obviously don't know what I'm talking about anyway, so I shouldn't be on here trying to help people, and answer questions. I should just keep my mouth shut, and clean my cages. So from now on, that's what I'll do. I am now going to cancel my membership to this website, to this forum, and to this thread. And I might do the same for indigos forever. It seems my experience, and my knowledge is not adequate anyway. I am just so sick of this crap, and I have way too many , and way more important things to do with my time. Adios.
T.
T.

 

[epidemic]

No, I'm not upset in the least, but in my experience, and I have a great deal of it, Drys, D. couperi included, enjoy climbing opportunities.
I believe Scott indicated he was utilizing the maximum floor space available for the eclosure plan and his question was in regards to the height of the enclosure alone. I found it to be against what I have observed, in both the wild and captivity, to limit the height of the enclosure and not provide climbing opportunites, especially since Scott apperas to be in a position to offer such. However, you did make a few good points, especially in regards to securing enclosure furniture and caution to be used when using wood harvested from the wild....

Didn't mean to get your BP up Tony, you know I still love ya brudda!

Jeff

 

[BWSmith]

Jeez Tony. I don't think anyone meant to insult you. You must have had a gang of roving Jehovah's Witnesses piss in your Cheerios this morning

One of the problems is that not much is known about Drymarchon compared to many other genus. Hell, how many baby couperi are found? I asked Dirk "How do you find neonates?". His answer was simple, "You don't". So anytime that someone speaks in definite terms (i.e. "they WILL", "you MUST" or "they ALWAYS") rather than more open terms (i.e. "they MAY", "you MAY WANT TO TRY", or "OFTEN they"), it is bound to get clarified, rebutted, and/or scrutinized. The only certainty is that they are cool critters

 

[epidemic]

Finding the elusive neonate D. couperi

BW, I have a friend that has found several neonate D. couperi in Florida, though such have been found over the course of 20 years!
He is a engineer for a firm that lays natural gas lines in Florida, a job which places him in remote areas on a daily basis, and he finds them from time to time and always manages to call and rub such in my face when he finds them. He has about 10 acres in Lake Placid, FL and regularly removes wild D. couperi from his yard, to keep his dogs from harming them, but has yet to find a neonate on his own property, though he has removed a 9' red-chinned rascal, as he calls it, from his porch several times over the past two years...

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[caliscott]

Ask a simple question...

Wow. Such a passionate responses from true devotees! Tony, I'd like to thank you for your PVC pipe idea. You should feel that your time spent on such forums is worth it because you can pass on pearls like that. I'm going to try it out on my kingsnakes.

Now, I don't want to set off a debate about the average diameter of a gopher tortoise burrow, but do you think I could use 4" PVC instead of 6" . The habitrail conection idea may allow me to get to an area with more footprint.

Jeff, i will look at trying to make more vertical space. I'm trying for a breeding pair. I can stack two cages and build to 2 to 3 feet. I will lose a sweet tin covered workbench top. I wonder what I can do with left over tin sheeting?

Seriously,

Thanks for all your advice. The debate causes us to think about how better to care for our animals. I can't wait to see your responses to my feedin' and breedin' questions.

Scott