CagesByDesign my experience

[Shane Provstgaa]

I received two of their "new" cages in November and put them up by December 6th. Within three weeks a crack developed along one corner of the plexi-glass bottom of the cage allowing snake urine to leak out onto my carpet, wall, and woodwork. This was the first crack I noticed & I thought I could fix it. Within another week cracks developed in other panels, the doors would not slide and were scratching, and urine had leaked onto other wood panels warping them. At this point I dismantled the cages and found more cracks with whole pieces falling off of the corners of the cages (plexi-glass) once the frame wasn't holding the cage together. At this point I called the company and was told I was lying, that their cages wouldn't fall apart like that & that they would not refund my money because the 30 day warranty had expired. They also told me that the best they could do was to replace the panels at cost, and that again they didn't really believe me anyway. To prove to them that the cage panels had indeed cracked to the point where they were unusable I emailed them pictures. They still will not even replace the panels, but instead want me to pay for them again. Further, my phone conversation with them consisted of being yelled at, by a salesperson named Paul, almost nonstop (yes I began yelling back after being told they did not believe a word I was saying). This also happened when my wife contacted them. These cages are sold for large constricting snakes, but are from my experience not even close to up to task. I now have $687.00 of cages that I will have to replace every panel in but 2 (out of ten) to even use again. And this after barely 5 weeks of use! The owners of this operation are very belligerent and will not budge at all from their stance.
I have been involved in the reptile industry as a private collector for nearly 25 years and I have never even heard of the treatment I have received from these guys. They have yelled at both my wife and myself in phone conversations and put out a product that in my experience didn't even last 5 weeks of minimal use. These cages use very flimsy 1/8th inch thick plexi panels and you may want to think long and hard before believing their claims of using these with "extremely large reptiles" as these cages didn't even stand up to 5 weeks use with two 10 lb snakes. Be warned these cages and especially the owners are not what they appear to be.

 

[gila7150]

Can you post the pictures you sent them so we can see the problems you're describing?
Did the cracks start from a screw hole or something and just keep spreading?
Chris Raden

 

[JasonBrennan]

Just a thought, but what did you use to clean these cages? I know that there are some types of chemicals that will shrink and crack plastics. I saw a thread on "The BoaForum" about the boaphile cages, and a person had used some type of cleaner that did pretty much the same thing you are describing to the door of his boaphile cage (plexi or lexan?). Don't know, just throwing that out there to consider.

I have never used or seen the cages that you are refering to, so I can't help any more than that. Sorry.

Jason Brennan

 

[repitat]

1/8"???

I can't believe anyone in the manufacturing business making enclosures for "large reptiles" would use 1/8" plexi. A very large, very angry snake could strike at that and go right through it. Reptiles with large nails would scratch it up something rotten too. They may want to rethink the thickness they use, or maybe the material. I know there are plenty of companies making good stuff out of thicker plexi or stronger plexi-type material (hint, hint).

 

[Pennebaker]

Are you sure it is 1/8 inch plexi???
1/8 inch plexi is what you use for framing small pieces of artwork, not caging of any kind. Anything over 12 inches is going to be super floppy.
Photos would definitely help--even if you just go to walmart and get a disposable camera. You could then show the photos to them as proof--maybe they will be more agreeable then.
Dana

 

[jusmebabe]

There's another thread concerning CagesByDesign on here. According to others posts pics or no pics your out of luck... I myself have lookd into those cages but decided feedback on cage quality wasn't positive.

 

[Dianne Johnson]

I had received an email from Shane in regards to an inquiry I made on another forum about these cages for my burm once she is grown. I did not save the email in my pc (unfortunately) once I had read and viewed the pictures though I did print them out in black and white for my future reference. I can honestly say from the pictures that he emailed me, I am convinced that the cages are not fit for large constrictors. There were no drill holes where the plexi cracked and you could easily see the warping and swelling of the laminate covered particle board. Though I could not tell exactly the thickness of the plexi, it did not appear thick enough to be used with large constrictors IMO.

Dianne

 

[Shane Provstgaa]

Pictures

I have the pictures that I sent to them on a disk, but I am a bit computer illiterate. If anyone would be kind enough to post these pictures I would be more then happy to email them, as I would really rather not see anyone else be taken by this company.
Oh, and by the way it really is 1/8 inch plexi-glass. CagesByDesign tried to tell me that these frames, regardless of the size, would hold up to a 100 mph fast ball without any damage. I told them I could easily put my fist through these frames, to which they replied "all you would do is break your wrist". It would be funny had these cages not cost me so much! Also the cleaner I used is quat-plus.
Best regards,
Shane

 

[Odd Ball Exotics]

Quat-plus is the cleaner that cracked the boaphile cage (a very nice and well made cage). So that may have a lot to do with how it started but still...1/8 inch plexi? I wouldn't use that for a corn snake.

 

[CheriS]

Here are shanes pictures of his cages

 

[Rob BryertonRKK]

I can't remember who it was that had the problem w/ the Boaphile Plexi, but I do remember that Jeff Ronne replaced it at no charge.
Rob

 

[Pennebaker]

Wow--a cleaner that does that--how strange. Regardless, I would think that they need to let you know of the dangers of certain cleaners prior to sale. Jeff did the right thing--I'm sure he now lets everyone know about the cleaner.
You should not be held responsible in my opinion.
Dana

 

[Seamus Haley]

Wow--a cleaner that does that--how strange.

It's a fairly well known phenomenon, plexi glass is usually somewhat flexible but the use of certain chemicals, including those often found in glass cleaners (Ammonia among others) will cause many forms of plastic to crystallize and become brittle, which leads to easy and frequent cracking.

As a personal opinion I really don't feel the manufacturer is responsible for the customer's ignorance on the matter. While it would have been nice to mention it, it's not as if the understanding of this is uncommon knowledge and I feel it goes a bit beyond "Helpful manufacturer" into "Annoyingly overbearing paperwork that comes with every product now telling you how to avoid being an idiot." The classic example being the Instructions on a box of toothpicks made so by the late Douglas Adams in "So long and thanks for all the fish" but this mentality of assuming your consumer is a moron who will find some way to injure themselves has gone too far. My new table saw came with instructions telling me not to put my hands, face or any other body parts into contact with the blade... (I did have to dig the instructions out of the trash to verify this, it's not as if I normally read them), while this example may not be as extreme, it's certainly similar.

A person bought a product and then utilized another unrelated product from a different manufacturer in conjunction with it with a result that was negative. It's not uncommon knowledge but I can see the consumer being unaware of the effects on plexi glass... But rather than kicking themselves and making a note not to use ammonia on acrylic enclosures in the future, they try and turn it around and blame it on the manufacturer because they failed to tell them not to... That's just plain outright absurd.

My feelings on this matter are made stronger because I am sick of manufacturers feeling it's their duty to tell me how not to be an idiot so they can avoid being taken to court when I do something stupid like lick my new car battery, so it may be best to ignore some of the stronger emotions in this post but...

Can the manufacturer really be blamed for not assuming that this person didn't know this and sending them an instruction manual heavier than the enclosure telling him what NOT to do?

... and we wonder why other nations think Americans are fat lazy idiots...

 

[repitat]

Not knowing = stupid???

True there are plenty of people out there who don't know how to properly clean acrylic, but I don't think that necessarily makes them an idiot. Glass cleaners say they are good for use on glass, plastic, metals, etc and to spot test other materials. The only thing most glass cleaner claim not to use with is wood & varnished products (at least that's what mine says). We use glass cleaner (with ammonia-d) on our product as well, and have never had that sort of problem (of course, like I've said, we use 1/4").

Basically I feel that the manufacturer is partially responsible to let consumers know how to clean their product if there is any special requirements or "do not use" situations if they are known to the manufacturer. All of our vivariums are delivered with a single piece of paper explaining how to clean and maintain the acrylic portion of their vivarium. I would hate for my customer to be dissatisfied because after their first cleaning, their vivarium looked horrible because they didn't know or think of any special precautions to take.

Just my opinions!

 

[Lucy Howard]

i do NOT think that putting "don't use this hairdryer while sleeping" in some instructions falls in the same category as a warning that certain cleaners can damage/destroy the panels of your cage.
It is not some "outrageous, highly toxic, wear gloves, gas-mask and body-armor" kind of cleaner either.
I didn't know you weren't supposed to use ammonia based cleaners on plexi, and i do not consider myself to be completely ignorant or a "fat lazy idiot"
If something as "simple" as a amonia based cleaner can destroy a cage...then i do think its WARRANTED to mention that somewhere on the website and/or in the instructions..it doesn't take to much work and trouble to do that...i would think.
It is not the same as saying " do not assemble while experiencing a seizure".
I for one, am very glad for this thread....as i am shopping for a couple of cages and was considered theirs. I would have probably not thought twice about cleaning them with a cleaner like that...and i don't think, many people would.
Well, just my 2 cents.
Btw. Jeff Ronne did the RIGHT thing, customer service and a good reputation is critical in the business world, and in this case, a refund/replacement is ABSOLUTELY WARRANTED....!!!!IMHO

 

[Peter Kananen]

The buyer of the cage is responsible for all damage he does to his cage. Period. In my opinion, it is impossible for the seller to check to see if every cleaner/heater/etc. will harm the product.

That being said, I don't think the way CBD treated you was right. They should replace the panels, but I don't think they have an obligation to. It is just in their best interest to do so.

I have only heard bad things about cages by design's cages.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Fat and lazy idiots?? Huh...

It looks to me like Jason B was the person who pointed out that it may have been the cleaner used. NOT the manufacturer even after the fact.

It's a fairly well known phenomenon, plexi glass is usually somewhat flexible but the use of certain chemicals, including those often found in glass cleaners (Ammonia among others) will cause many forms of plastic to crystallize and become brittle, which leads to easy and frequent cracking.

Oh really?

It's not uncommon knowledge but I can see the consumer being unaware of the effects on plexi glass

Oh really?

 

[repitat]

FYI

For everyone's general knowledge, I have enclosed the following quote directly from Atofina's website (they are the makers of Plexiglas® brand acrylic sheets) concerning cleaning of acrylic:

Cleaning Directions
Washing - Wash Plexiglas® sheet with a mild soap or detergent and lukewarm water solution. Use a clean soft cloth or sponge and as much solution as possible. Rinse well. Dry by blotting with a damp cloth or chamois.

Do not use: Window cleaning fluids, scouring compounds, gritty cloths, leaded or ethyl gasolines or solvents such as alcohol, acetone, carbon tetrachloride, etc.

To remove tar, grease, paint, etc., use a good grade of naphtha or kerosene. Users of these solvents should become familiar with their properties to handle them safely.

 

[Seamus Haley]

First off...

If you read my post carefully, you will find that nowhere in there did I call the individual who used the glass cleaner on the plexi an idiot, stupid or anything other than unfortunately naive of a situation.

I stated that many manufacturers include instructions that seem to assume that the purchaser is an idiot in the manner they go disgustingly overboard with warnings.

It is fairly common knowledge that glass cleaners will destroy plexiglass, although I am apparantly overstating the breadth of people who are aware of this... I can say firmly that the majority of acrylic aquarium owners who I have come in contact with are well aware of this and that the majority of people I interact with who own acrylic reptile enclosures (or enclosures with acrylic parts) are well aware of this. I'm actually very surprised that so many people seemingly didn't know this...

I still feel that the manufacturer can not be held responsible for the ignorance of a customer in using an unrelated product. While it certainly would have been decent to mention it and it sounds like they decided to maintain proper customer service relations in replacing the panels and perhaps will warn people in the future, I can not see how there was any moral or legal obligation for them to do so.

 

[ms_terese]

While it certainly would have been decent to mention it and it sounds like they decided to maintain proper customer service relations in replacing the panels and perhaps will warn people in the future, I can not see how there was any moral or legal obligation for them to do so.

I thought they only agreed to replace the panels if Shane paid for them. I don't think that's really going out of their way.

In addition, if the damage done to plexiglass by ammonia is common knowledge, CagesByDesign should be aware of that potential and maybe questioned their customer about the cleaning solution that was being used instead of calling him a liar when he told them about the condition of the panels.

Finally, I'd like to know how many times Shane cleaned those panels in a matter of 5 weeks.

Regardless of the source of the problem, I don't think that CagesByDesign has handled this situation with any sort of professionalism or proper customer service. I certainly won't buy from them at this point. Unfortunately for Shane, Seamus is correct in stating that there is no legal obligation for the panels to be replaced without any charge. Their moral obligation to do so is another story, but obviously a moot point.