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CagesByDesign my experience

hm...i'm not sure if the plexi was also part of the bottom of the cage, but one thing that struck me as odd....
If it IS on the bottom, what about the urine of the snakes?
Isn't that somewhat ammonia like?
And if a cage is built for a large snake, i know they can almost flood a cage with urine.
Even if there was a substrate in a cage, the urine would still come into contact with the plexi. Wouldn't that be just about as damaging as cleaning with a ammonia based cleaner?
just wondering...
 
If it IS on the bottom, what about the urine of the snakes?
Isn't that somewhat ammonia like?
And if a cage is built for a large snake, i know they can almost flood a cage with urine.
Even if there was a substrate in a cage, the urine would still come into contact with the plexi. Wouldn't that be just about as damaging as cleaning with a ammonia based cleaner?

Snakes really don't "Urinate" except on rare occasions when you probe them or really really stress them out (an action akin to musking), they produce Urates.

The ammonia levels in Urates are not identical to the ammonia levels in a product where they are intended to be used to dissolve stains.

It really only takes one application of the wrong kind of chemical to start to cause damage. In addition, there are environmental extremes that can cause problems with plexi as well, it can shatter when under temperature extremes, it can shatter if struck or dropped along the edge at a certain angle...

The point is that these panels were intact when shipped or he would have made an issue of it sooner, after having them for five weeks and subjecting them to whatever condition it was that caused this damage, the buyer has no grounds for complaint when the damage is a result of his own action.

Now... if there was a serious manufacturing defect and the panels showed up with air bubbles inside or cracked to start, the buyer would have notified the manufacturer earlier.
 
The point is that these panels were intact when shipped or he would have made an issue of it sooner, after having them for five weeks and subjecting them to whatever condition it was that caused this damage, the buyer has no grounds for complaint when the damage is a result of his own action.
This is your opinion Seamus, and I do not agree. If CBD is selling a product that becomes unusable by cleaning it with a common household cleaner(ammonia) they should inform the customer in BOLD print. And if they do not, because they were unaware of it or not, they should assume some, if not all, liability.
Snakes really don't "Urinate" except on rare occasions when you probe them or really really stress them out (an action akin to musking), they produce Urates.
What is all that liquid in my cages if it is not urine? Sure looks like pee to mee
 
LMAO!!!

Casey, I so wanted to say the same thing, but decided I better not !!
What is all that liquid in my cages if it is not urine? Sure looks like pee to mee
But I will jump in and say something for others interested:

I almost bought a bearded dragon from Casey over a year ago, money had tranferred to paypal. But just after the tranfer the temps starting dropping fast and were predicted to go lower, Casey contacted me and expressed his concern in not wanting to ship a baby in the cold even with heat packs due to delays with trucks and planes, I agreed that it was not a good option at that time and he promptly refunded my payment ALONG with fees.

I commend a breeder that thought more of the well being of the animal involved, than not only a profit... but to the point that it cost him to decline a sale, Its says more about their character than any words ever can.

It was the best buy I never made :look:
 
lol, thank you Casey!!!
I was beginning to wonder if something was seriously wrong with my snakes.
Although they do pass solid urates, they most certainly "pee" too...
Most of my snakes aren't even fully grown, yet can "let go" of quite "a little lake"...LOL.
I am with you on the cage issue, too...
If you build a cage for reptiles, you realize it is a item that is constantly "messed in" and will constantly need to be "cleaned and sanitized".
If the only way to safely clean such enclosure would be soap and water...well, then that should be stated.
Personally I want something that i can "power-clean" should the need arise.
I do believe a expensive cage should last longer then 5 weeks, and cleaning it with a common, non-harsh household-cleaner should not be considered unneccassary roughness resulting in destruction of the cage.
Even if they feel they are not responsible, the respect, repeat-business and recommandations that they would receive by doing "the right thing" would far outweigh the cost of replacing the panels.
 
Seamus,

The quat cleaner was NOT used on the side plexi-glass panels at all and they still cracked. The bottom panels cracked in areas where they never came into contact with the cleaner as well. Also, in 5 weeks I did little more than spot clean areas, with only very few major deep cleans. The truth is these cages just do not meet up to the manufacturers claims as strong enough to handle reptiles of any size much less large reptiles.
Shane
 
Seamus,

The quat cleaner was NOT used on the side plexi-glass panels at all and they still cracked. The bottom panels cracked in areas where they never came into contact with the cleaner as well. Also, in 5 weeks I did little more than spot clean areas, with only very few major deep cleans. The truth is these cages just do not meet up to the manufacturers claims as strong enough to handle reptiles of any size much less large reptiles.
Shane

Then were the panels damaged upon delivery?

Or what was the specific catalyst for their destruction? The cracks pictured don't appear to be the sort of thing likely to occur overnight that you "Suddenly" wake up one morning to find... Were they hit by striking animals? Dropped? Left in an unheated area or directly placed into contact with heating elements?
 
Shane, can you measure and state the exact thinckness of the pexiglass?

I have one here that was used for anoles that was 1/8 inch thick and with the heat it did not hold up over a few months and started cracking. IT was never represented to me that it could take the heat. So my own loss, but also it was never cleaned with anything but dish soapy water and rinsed well, so I know it was the heat that caused the problem there.

I really question one that was sold for holding a large snake that can pack a lot of power in those muscles but looks as thin as that does in the pictures. Also, since sold as housing for a larger snake, that would imply that the maker knows it would be exposed to heat and higher temps and normal cleaning

Lets look at this another way, can the product be used for what the manufactor says it can safely and for normal wear and tear over a period of time? The manufactor holds a certain responsibility if he sells an item claiming it can be used for that, and then the product does not hold up. The manufactor is the reponsible party for KNOWING that this item can be used as they state it is built for, they should know the nomal wear and tear the product they make and sale can take and advise others of the care that product may need to maintain that.

Pexiglass is a petroleum based product and as such will dry out some when exposed to higher temps, but the thicker cuts seem to hold up well.

IMO, Cages by Design is not an honorable company to do business with, even if they replaced the cage, it would certainly do the same thing again under the same circumstances.

As long as their attitude is this, I would never purchase from them or advise anyone to. The "right" thing to do would be to refund him his money or offer it applied toward a cage that will endure what he wanted it for and they state it could be used for, his choice. They would be smart to learn from this for the future and adjust their advertizing and selling accordingly.
 
Seamus:
The cracks pictured don't appear to be the sort of thing likely to occur overnight that you "Suddenly" wake up one morning to find...
As a matter of fact (<-- a word you like) it does not even take overnight if the pexiglass was thin.

With ours that cracked we were watching TV one night a few weeks after set up and heard like a rifle report, went looking and found the tank damaged. This was three feet from were the lights were and with anoles!!!! not something who's "striking animals" could do much damage, even if they were in great physical shape :) "A few days later, the whole side where sealed gave loose from the pressure of warping, had it not, surely more cracks would have appeared, something had to give!
 
Seamus,

How many of those people that you know with acrylic aquariums and cages with plexiglass parts came upon this information the hard way (ie after using said chemicals on the products) and how many came about the knowledge by being informed by the manufacturer or retailer. Just because they are aware of the information does not mean it was common knowledge to them prior to them using it or being told.

If a manufacturer is selling a product that he can reasonably assume may be treated like another product (plexi glass and glass for example) I would think it would be in his/her best interest to make a statement of what chemicals sould not be used to clean it. I'm not saying that they should neccesarily be legaly obligated to do so, and I don't think they should be legaly responsible if the customers do, but I would think as a service for their possibly uninformed customers it could save major headaches in the long run.

Also, If I was taking the time to develope a line of enclosures I probably would spend a little time testing various cleaning compounds on them to see how they react. I'm not saying that they have to list every product that may damage their product but a simple warning to stay away from ammonia based cleansers or whatever may be in order.
 
Just because they are aware of the information does not mean it was common knowledge to them prior to them using it or being told.

Forgive me for the way I am about to put this but...

How else does one get information? I can't pinpoint the exact manner in which it was gained for each specific individual but I also can't recall anyone speaking directly from personal experience and the only reason I suspect that the majority of individuals I interact with on a regular basis are aware of this is because someone ends up mentioning it virtually every time the matter of acrylic enclosures is brought up... Someone else also invariably ends up mentioning the fact that it scratches and the fact it can be drilled and cut with greater ease when building your own enclosures crops up quite often as well...

The information was obviously not ingrained at birth but... If someone is buying an enclosure made from a material they are unfamiliar with, they tend to ask, after they ask and verify the information they have been given, they know and will pass that information along. I will acknowledge that most acrylic aquariums do have the warning about cleaners somewhere in the documentation which certainly assists the spread of knowledge.

I also do not disagree that informing consumers of this situation is a bad idea, nor do I think that replacing the panels would be inappropriate, I simply feel that the attitude of the consumer, approaching the matter as if there was some unquestioning obligation for the manufacturer to do so is wrong. While I may not fully understand the intricate specifics of every single item I own, I certainly research the items to a degree that leaves me satisfied that it's what I want to buy and that it can be used in the manner I want to use it, if I make a mistake and buy the wrong item, I don't blame the manufacturer when it explodes, catches on fire, severs my limbs, permanently blinds me or leaves the air in my home tasting like tin... I accept responsibility for misuse of a product even if I was not told it couldn't be used in a certain way and I find it ridiculous that someone would try to force culpability and guilt on the manufacturer because THEY used it incorrectly. If these panels were improperly manufactured then I could see placing responsibility on the company, there has as of yet been no evidence of this... If they were used improperly, then I see placing responsibility on the buyer... there has also been no firm evidence of this, merely pattern of action, if the company were sending out badly constructed panels, there would be more than the complaint which exists (the other thread was about an improperly installed grommet of some sort).

The only other way I could see forcing the guilt onto the company and being able to demand some sort of refund would be distinct misrepresentation... If they stated they used 1/2" plexi and they send 1/8", however if they state what materials are used, or are willing to answer should the consumer be smart and ASK BEFORE SENDING THEM MONEY, then they can not be blamed, even if the materials are not suitable for the purpose the consumer wishes to utilize it for. Inflated advertisement claims are a grey area, I can keep a fifteen foot burm in a pillow case for an indefinite period of time until it really decides it wants out, so arguments about the validity of the claims on that score are sketchy, but probably the only area where clear guilt can be determined.
 
CBD

All I can say is I have had several cages in the last 12 years for all types animals. Though in the beginning I used Plexi-glass, I have since changed my mind on it's suitibility. At one point I had a 12 foot female burm in a cage with 1/4 inch thick plexi. At breeding time she decided she wanted to be with the male and simply expanded her body until the plexi shattered with a very loud bang (much like the rifle shot heard by another poster). I now use cages that have tempered glass sliding doors. This has been able to stand up to even the largest snake I own. It is however very suscebtible to dropping, even the lightest tap on the floor is detrimental as I can attest to by having to purchase several replacements.

thanks
 
Seamus,
First off I believe you have a right to your opinion and to you it must seem valid. But here again, most of the cracks that appeared in the plexi-glass were not touched by the cleaner in question. The actual thickness is 1/8th inch, which I did question in conversation with the owners of this company prior to buying. They told me because of the cage design the panes would withstand a 100 mph fast ball (their booklet says "substantially" higher forces then a 45 mph fast ball which could mean anything) and that the bottoms may bow under the weight of a large snake, but would not brake. They were also informed on more than one occasion prior to buying these cages that these cages were for African rock pythons, and I expressed my concerns regarding the caging of these snakes, even though at this time they are fairly small. Further, one of the biggest surprises to me was the way I was treated after the purchase, when problems began to arise. It is still hard for me to believe the way I was "spoken" to by the person I called. To be fair, I did lose my temper with him as well, but only after being told he did not believe a word I was saying.
Lastly, I am not trying to convince you or anybody else as to who is wrong or right in this situation, I am simply stating my experience, with photos (thank you Cheri for posting these for me) so that potential buyers can see what MY experience was. If after reviewing this, if people still want to buy from this company, then please do. I can, again, only speak from my experience, although a quick check of Kingsnake.coms forums can turn up a few other people whom have also had bad experiences with this company.
Best Regards,
Shane
 
The Breaking Point

Just for the record.....

Acrylic sheets of 1/8" have a breaking point with a 47mph fastball. The breaking point for 1/4" is 84mph.

At least that's what my technical data information states.
 
Shane,

Qhat cage was it you ordered? I was looking on their site to see the info that state there or talk to them, but can't figure which one it is.
 
CBD

Ok by the pictures posted IMHO is part one of a few problems.
1- as stated over " what were they thinking " with 1/8" plexi or lexan
2- as vettes stated and i use on my cages etc is 1/4" safety glass.

they "panels" if they call them that are obserd for anything other then making officemax furniture with or as a underlayment for a laminate countertop. I will say i have never personally seen there cages or how there assembled ie: screws , dowels etc for assembly .But with partilceboard/melemine products its merely chipped wood and heavy sawdust made with high pressure glue so when drilled and assembled with screws if over tightened the holes will strip out. If not properly sealed then water causes seperation of the material . for a very easy example if you have a piece around set a drinking glass with ice water down ... let it sweat then watch the magic ring appear ... So with there type of design ( pending assembly method) its kinda doomed from the start as it will be only a matter to time before urinates seap into the panels causing swelling of the product and causing the screws / dowls to loose there holding ability.Now say its properly assembled a light hit or a "direct hit on the corner can cause the particle board or melimine to fracture again causing it to come apart. Then i will assume they use plastic tracks for the sliding doors ? its cheaper for them and faster to produce.

now in mine I only use 3/4 plywood products and all dado all joints for strength and laydown a bead of 100% silicone in all dado before assembly to keep it sealed from water or urinates. I also only use 1/4" safety glass on ALL of my products and for sliding tracks I only use aluminium runners with nylon bushing on the glass it self and all are made so that there is no possibility of the cage having a " sag to cause the doors not to open freely thus also assuring that by using aluminium tracks there will be no possiblity of the plastic cracking from heat or being hit while door is open. so with a few things addressed not saying what they did is right or wrong but i would assume they consider there cages as " disposable products" and to have to right the problems of a customer would in the end come out of there $ to fix what was not done right to start off with. So if this is a reoccuring problem in there cages then imagine if they fixed everyone they would be broke soon .. lol the right thing would be to no matter how much they know how to care for there product is to provide there customers with the same knowledge they have to make them aware of the do's and donts of what they have paid for .

I mean when we buy a car we get a owners manual ...
when we buy a furniture it has care instructions....
so why should a investment like a cage not have the same ?
and to say that the consumer " should know how to clean it "
is taking the easy way out ..

I do custom kitchens as a trade ... and i have to tell EVERY customer how to wash there granite tops ..... corian tops .... and new custom cabinets , as well as ranges etc ...

now if i failed to instruct them on care and up keep how far does customer service go after the sale ? No where so i make it my point to take the time to inform my customers on the do's and dont's ...


hope they right the problem for you
 
Cheri,

The cages I purchased from them are the 18X48X36. These cages are $284.00 apiece before you add in the venting and the shipping which then took the total to $687.00. The cages do not have any product numbers associated with them.
Hope this helps,
Shane
 
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