Bad Guy Calientedragons - Rankin Dragons

[Zack319]

Prove that their not Hybrid, thats the sellers job.

Not the buyers.

 

[jayefbe]

Thats just it no one has proven that they are not pure. It is pure hear say that these Rankins are not pure rankins. Everyone has jumped on this bandwagon with wendy saying that oh oh oh they are vitticeps/lawsoni hybrids.
Has anyone proven this? From what i have read the genetics on these were able to be traced 4 generations back and have not been crossed. That would lead me to believe that they are infact Lawsons/Rankins dragons and not a hybrid.

They have no proof that they ARE pure. They have no proof backing up the claim that they are unrelated to anything in the US. The burden of proof lies upon the seller, the one making the claims.

I'm guessing you've been getting PMs from Caliente as well.

Sellers making claims without proof. That's exactly how species become muddied up, and exactly how this situation started.

I'm simply astounded that you don't understand this simplest of details, so let me say it as loud as I can.

CALIENTE MADE CLAIMS IN THEIR ADVERTISING THAT THEY CAN NOT BACK UP WITH PROOF. THAT IS DISHONEST AND THE SELLER SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH.

 

[spyder79]

its the sellers job to prove what the customer requests and in this case the customer did not request any genetic background nor proof of genetics. So in this case in particular the buyer made the mistake and the seller should not be required to pay for that mistake if the seller does not want to. the buyer had every chance to ask any and all questions pertaining to the genetic background of these animals prior to purchase. and considering the buyers background with Rankins you would think she would have had a list of things to ask prior to purchasing. But instead of doing this she saw the pictures that were on the sale ad and was pleased with just that. Hell even when i am purchasing something as just a pet and nothing other than a pet i still ask full background information on the animal. If i was spending 400 dollars on "pure" rankins then you damn well bet i would have pictures from many different angles and would have questioned genetic background with documented proof prior to purchasing. The buyer did not take the time to do this so it is indeed her fault and not the sellers.

 

[LauraB]

Thats just it no one has proven that they are not pure.

And no one has proven that they are, either. Just reading that they can be traced back is not "proof". I see no proof of genetics either way.

Everyone has jumped on this bandwagon with wendy saying that oh oh oh they are vitticeps/lawsoni hybrids.

No, most people do agree that Betty is due a refund (her money & her PayPal) since Heidi initially did offer one, then reneged - not that the dragons are hybrids, necessarily.

That would lead me to believe that they are infact Lawsons/Rankins dragons and not a hybrid.

You mean the same way Wendy believes that are hybrids and Heide believes they are pure. Again, no proof of any "in fact" that I can see from either party - except that Heidi has both the dragons and Betty's money. That is a fact.

That said, I do agree that someone with the self-proclaimed knowledge of Inlands, Rankins and Drankins should have persued more info prior to the purchase.

 

[ReptileAddictions]

Let me remind everyone that due to the wording in the ad I was lead to believe they had imported these rankins and had paperwork on them that would be provided in the sale.

It was not until after that I discovered they did NOT import them and the actual importer does NOT know where they came from.

Here is Heidi and Garry own words about the "purity" of these dragons.

Can you please educate me and explain? Can you send a picture of what your referring to? I would like to compare with the rest of my clan..

I am very sorry if indeed he is not pure, I had no intention or knowledge of that... If you would like to send him back I will refund your money...

OK so I guess there would be no way to prove that they are "Pure" there is probably no "Pure" Rankin's. I don't know anyone who does DNA testing. I have also never DNA tested any bearded dragon. Nor have I or anyone I know been to Australia and brought any animals back.

We said unrelated to anything currently in the US. This I cannot totally prove because I am not going to test every animal in the US. But no-one has proven that they are related to anything here in the US (but we have removed that wording from our ad). If there is anyone that can PROVE they have something that is related, I will apologize to everyone involved and refund it all.

I have proven here in several posts that ALL rankins in captivity came from ONE FEMALE at the Frankfurt Zoo. So where is my apology and refund????

 

[ReptileAddictions]

Oh, and Gary (who has been posting as Heidi) I have spoke to numerous members on here about all you harassing PM's and phone calls to their homes.

You are attempting to intimidate me and everyone else who doesn't agree with you. And your tactics can get you in big trouble!

But guess what Gary?, I know who you REALLY are, so stop pretending to be someone you are not.

I don't intimidate easily.

 

[Lucille]

If i was spending 400 dollars on "pure" rankins then you damn well bet i would have pictures from many different angles and would have questioned genetic background with documented proof prior to purchasing. The buyer did not take the time to do this so it is indeed her fault and not the sellers.

Many years ago, there was a philosophy of 'Buyer Beware' and a scammed buyer would be told that it was their fault for being scammed.

That is outdated , consumer protection laws in every state protect against sellers who advertise one thing and then sell another.

It sounds like the above poster is actually expecting that sellers will be liars and scammers, and perhaps some of them are.

In any case, this particular seller promised a refund which has not been forthcoming, so pointing out anything in the transaction is moot, the promise has been already made.

 

[jayefbe]

its the sellers job to prove what the customer requests and in this case the customer did not request any genetic background nor proof of genetics. So in this case in particular the buyer made the mistake and the seller should not be required to pay for that mistake if the seller does not want to. the buyer had every chance to ask any and all questions pertaining to the genetic background of these animals prior to purchase. and considering the buyers background with Rankins you would think she would have had a list of things to ask prior to purchasing. But instead of doing this she saw the pictures that were on the sale ad and was pleased with just that. Hell even when i am purchasing something as just a pet and nothing other than a pet i still ask full background information on the animal. If i was spending 400 dollars on "pure" rankins then you damn well bet i would have pictures from many different angles and would have questioned genetic background with documented proof prior to purchasing. The buyer did not take the time to do this so it is indeed her fault and not the sellers.

Your point of view is so unbelievably idiotic. Under your incredibly unreasonable reasoning, if I were to buy an animal that was misrepresented it would actually be MY fault for not knowing beforehand that the seller was LYING TO ME. Literally, I am in disbelief.

You are saying that it's ok for someone to lie (yes LIE) in their ads, because heck, if someone doesn't see through them, serves them right!

Stunned...flabbergasted...incredulous...astounded...

How are you still making this argument? Your reasoning, it's beyond flawed. You're not speaking your mind, you're just arguing for the sake of argument and grasping at whatever feeble straws you think might actually dupe someone into agreeing with you.

Come on. Just think about that for a minute, and finally admit to yourself two things.

1) Caliente has misrepresented their animals. They have no proof to back up their claims, and yes, it is their responsibility to know that their claims are true before they make them.
2) They owe a refund to not only Wendy, but anyone who bought a "rankin" from them and is unhappy with them.

You may disagree with that, but don't come here and argue that it's the buyer's fault for not seeing through the seller's dishonest marketing ploys. That's insulting, not just to this particular buyer, but to any that have been scammed, will be scammed, or potentially could be scammed by the dishonest (Caliente included) within this hobby.

 

[spyder79]

lol
what i posted and it is easily read the way its written is that if a buyer is expecting an exact and perfect representation of what they think an animal should be like and the buyer does not request anything to prove the aimal they are looking at is what they expect it to be than yes it is their fault. i do not know any "informed" consumer that would pay 200 dollars for a particular morph without proof of that morph. do you know people that do this? if you do you need to teach them how to be a smart consumer instead of just expecting things to turn out like they think it will. the problem isnt that the animals were missrepresented as these animals are imports, the problem is the animal doesnt meet the "idea" wendy had in her head. if she had a particular image in her headof what a rankin is than she should have requested images to prove the animals she purchased were what she was picturing.

 

[ReptileAddictions]

It is OVERLY clear to everyone on here that Spyder79 has some personal issue with me. His opinions clearly no longer have anything to do with the transaction itself.

Spyder79- you don't like me, We get it! Your Heidi and Garys friend- We get it! You are willing to make a total fool of yourself and hurt your own business to prove it. We get it!

Give it a rest! WE GET IT!

 

[ReptileAddictions]

Gary, Gary, Gary............thats a whole lot of phone calls you are making today. Are you tired of hearing the same thing from them? "This is a civil matter, not involving us"...............

Worried about what I know about you and what I may post? All's fair in love and war, like you said "it's all public record".

 

[Zack319]

Worried about what I know about you and what I may post? All's fair in love and war, like you said "it's all public record".

Please share.

Brain, you're logic is so flawed. It's clear the only reason your involved with this thread, is that your friends with Heidi and Gary....

Now there are 2 people on this thread.
#1 Calientedragons - reasons are clear
#2 Thinks Calientedragons is doing the right, clearly a moron!

 

[Zack319]

2 people on this thread, I would never deal with*

 

[jayefbe]

lol
what i posted and it is easily read the way its written is that if a buyer is expecting an exact and perfect representation of what they think an animal should be like and the buyer does not request anything to prove the aimal they are looking at is what they expect it to be than yes it is their fault. i do not know any "informed" consumer that would pay 200 dollars for a particular morph without proof of that morph. do you know people that do this? if you do you need to teach them how to be a smart consumer instead of just expecting things to turn out like they think it will. the problem isnt that the animals were missrepresented as these animals are imports, the problem is the animal doesnt meet the "idea" wendy had in her head. if she had a particular image in her headof what a rankin is than she should have requested images to prove the animals she purchased were what she was picturing.

Listen, buddy. You really have no idea how stupid your logic is.

Under your reasoning this is what happened:
-Caliente LIED about their animals
-Wendy did not do sufficient research to uncover those LIES
-Wendy bought the animals and was angry when she discovered that Caliente was LYING about their animals
VERDICT: It is Wendy's fault because she should've done the required research to prove that Caliente was LYING before she bought the animals.

That is beyond, beyond, BEYOND stupid. It would be laughable if you weren't still making your bullheaded stand defending a couple of LIARS.

 

[Lucille]

That is beyond, beyond, BEYOND stupid. It would be laughable if you weren't still making your bullheaded stand defending a couple of LIARS.

I just had
an epiphany.

Brian has defended in the past a certain cage producer who others claimed had terrible cages and worse customer service.

Here, he is making the absolutely unbelievable claim that the CUSTOMER is to blame if they are scammed.

There is only one possible explanation.

He must run a company that, for pay, will run in and fight the most damning threads, defending those who are beyond defense.

Really, there cannot be any other explanation because NO ONE would actually turn and villify the unfortunate, cheated victims of deals gone wrong.

 

[spyder79]

I just had
an epiphany.

Brian has defended in the past a certain cage producer who others claimed had terrible cages and worse customer service.

Here, he is making the absolutely unbelievable claim that the CUSTOMER is to blame if they are scammed.

There is only one possible explanation.

He must run a company that, for pay, will run in and fight the most damning threads, defending those who are beyond defense.

Really, there cannot be any other explanation because NO ONE would actually turn and villify the unfortunate, cheated victims of deals gone wrong.

lol
so the fact that i had a successful exchange with mushucages automatically makes me a troll of some type. you are stretching it there. and as far as this thread i have posted the way i feel and it is my right. if you feel that i am stupid for my opinion well that is your opinion and i am still entitled to mine.

 

[ReptileAddictions]

PM from Stoned Dragons

"i do not have a personal problem with you i have a problem with the fact that you did no research on purchasing a animal that you are "supposedly" an expert on. And i personally feel you are causing waves only because you are getting back into selling rankins and just wanted to make a competitor look bad. It is so obvious that this is what has happened here. But no one wants to believe it so to each his own. I can garuntee you havent hurt Caliente's sales nor has it hurt mine as my clientele care about quality and not BS. Thanks though. Im glad you think its "obvious i dont like you" when i could care less about you or your business. Have fun with your little games you are playing with the seller as im sure its going to get you no were. Bye now.

Brian
__________________
Brian
Cryptic Dragons
www.crypticdragons.com "

Listen up KID, if you could care less aboutr me you would spend less time messaging me, and replying to EVERY POST on this thread. Your age shows here. We get your point. You have made it OVER AND OVER AND OVER. Could you do us all a favor and zip it?

I think your time might be better spent working on your website, every picture is a broken link except your 3 bearded dragon breeders.

Arn't you supposed to be hard at work protecting this country? Or is that how your spend the tax payers money? Surfing the net?

 

[ReptileAddictions]

Oh, and I never claimed to be an "expert" on anything. I am no such a thing. The info I aquired on Rankins was from the frankfurt zoo.

You think I threw away $400 so I could start a business breeding Rankins? LOL

As I have said over and over. I do not own/breed dragons, OF ANY SPECIES!

 

[jglass38]

Wendy,

When will you go away? Regardless of this transaction, the reptile world doesn't need people like you in it. Your past shows what kind of person you are and it's been proven time and time again that a leopard can't change it's spots. I wish that Caliente would just refund you already so you could finally shut up and fade back into Aryan obscurity.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

This one gets more and more interesting.

To start, I am of the popular opinion that a refund less shipping is due, but for only one reason. The sellers offered it. If they had not, I would be looking at this as a simple case of buyer’s remorse.

A number of you have stated that the seller’s original ad was dishonest. In order for the ad to be dishonest, the sellers would have had to intended to be deceptive. This statement was based on two points in the ad.

1. The statement “unrelated to US bloodlines”

To the best of their knowledge…this was a true statement. The animals were imported from Europe. The line originated there. As someone pointed out, without DNA testing on every dragon in captivity it is impossible to prove this absolutely. However, given the origin it is both a reasonable assumption and assertion. Wendy’s statement that all Rankin’s everywhere in captivity are descended from one female is not only ridiculous, it is impossible to prove. Import laws country to country vary widely. Anyone who thinks that only one female Rankin’s has ever left Australia raise your hand!!
2. Wendy’s assumption that the animals are not pure Rankin’s

This is based on the whole vestigial jowl observation. I have not heard anyone other than her state that this is an absolute and positive method of identifying a hybrid…..just Wendy. If I were as familiar with the species as Wendy and Jean claim to be, and this was a definitive point in verifying the animals to be what she wanted, wouldn’t a reasonable person have asked for a side shot of the animals? Especially with a seller she had never dealt with before? At the very least she would have asked if they had jowls. She did not.

I can’t “prove” beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Sinaloans I breed were not crossed in the wild with Nelson’s 8 generations ago. I can’t “prove’ that my Cornsnake stock does not contain a trace of Obsoleta blood. However if someone asked me if they were pure, my logical answer would be yes.


The “Betty is deserving of a refund” issue is very true but a little skewed.. I agree that she is due the money she fronted….from Wendy and Jean. If they are predicating her being repaid on whether or not Caliente refunds them, then that is their bad. Caliente had a transaction with Jean / Wendy. Betty was simply unlucky enough to agree to provide the funding. I hope she gets her money back but Caliente owes her nothing directly.


The whole “they have both the money and the dragons” argument is skewed as well. Wendy was told in no uncertain terms NOT to send the animals back as she would not be refunded. The seller has TOS in place that backs this up whether Wendy saw them or, as any experienced internet buyer would do, bothered to ask what they were. Her sending the animals back anyways was nothing but a ploy to attempt to force a refund. As an experienced seller, If that were to happen to me, I would not allow a buyer to bully me into a refund if I had already decided they were not entitled to one. Wendy was in the wrong there…not the sellers.


To sum up…would I have refunded them if I were the seller based on their initial complaint? Probably. But that is me. Every seller reacts differently. I have refunded numerous times over the years in situations that I did not think the seller was entitled to one. I look at is as good will and the cost of doing business. Was Wendy entitled to one here? I don’t think so. However, the seller offered one without stipulations so they should honor that statement. That is their only real screw up in this transaction.

If they had not made that statement, they were well within their rights to tell her to pound sand. It wouldn’t have been a good customer relations move but they would have been on firm business ground based on TOS.