Changing the standard on the BOI?

[Darin Chappell]

Recently, it has become more and more common to read someone's writing on the BOI wherein it says something like "Well, unless you have done business with the people involved, you have no right to say anything about a particular situation." While I have respect for some of the people espousing that veiw, I still find myself in disagreement with it for a variety of reasons.

First, that was NOT how the BOI was established. It was never intended to be a site wherein the protagonists would alone come here and set forth their sides of the situation with no interjections from the rest of us. Now, some may not like the way it was set up, but that is really too bad, in my opinion. If it offends you so much, don't leave this site, but do go ahead and establish your own version of an inquiry site that is as focused in its participation as YOU would like it to be. Please don't try to alter this site to suit you, when many of us have appreciated it just as it is for quite some time now. We will all appreciate you for your efforts!

Second, it is a bit of a hypocritical position, in my opinion. Why? Because telling someone not to be involved with a situation unless they were personally involved with the deal, is really doing the very same thing for which that person is being criticized. Let's say I jump on Wes (Sorry, Wes. You're just one of the few with thick enough skins to pick on, Pal!) about something. Someone then asks me, "Well, have you ever done business with Wes? I say "No, but . . ." Then they say, "Ah, ah, ah! If you haven't done business with Wes, you have no right to comment on the thread dealing with his bad actions!" However, the person that told me that is sticking his/her nose into MY interaction with Wes by what authority exactly??? I mean, surely this person was not personally involved with our interaction as Wes and I argue on the BOI, by what right do he/she now come here to tell me that I am wrong, when he/she has done very much the same thing to me!?!?!?

Finally, I disagree with the idea because of the very arena in which the BOI is conducted on a day by day basis. This is, in case anyone was unaware, very much a PUBLIC forum! If you want to set forth your ideas and disagreements without having others chime in with their opinions, take your troubles to one another via the route of emails. That way, we won't have to be tempted to call out a bad guy when we have no personal experience with him. Of course, if you do that, you won't have all of us on your side when you need us.


Hmmm . . . did you ever notice that those who are recognized as being the "innocent party" in a deal gone bad has never said "all of you people stay out of this! If you haven't had a personal dealing with 'ABC Reptiles,' I don't want or need your help!"? Oh sometimes, they come back and say, all is forgiven, disregard my previous bad guy post, but when the cheating is happening at that very moment, every victim wants EVERYONE'S input ALL of the time!!! Funny, that . . .


Just my personal veiws here. Feel free to completely reject them out of hand as soon as you see fit.

 

[ms_terese]

I'm absolutely with you on this one, Darin.

There's another aspect that is bothering me as well. The requests made almost as challenges that people CALL someone for information or facts rather than have them posted. If there is a disagreement, discrepancy, or deal gone bad, why would someone want to resolve it in a medium that provides no documentation? Private emails, sure, but phone calls?

The next is the assumption that you can't really determine a "good guy" or "bad guy" without a phone call to "get to know them". Isn't it more accurate to base an opinion on someone's business through verifiable information about previous or current transactions? Sure, a phone call might reveal that there's a shared interest of quilting, or a love of children, but what does that really have to do with anything? If the facts support that someone did something wrong, the fact that the person loves bbq brisket as much as you has no real bearing on whether or not that person is a good one to do business with.

 

[gmherps]

Cool!

 

[dwedeking]

... and how many times would a victim that posted on here that had their issue fixed would have been left out to dry if not for people stepping up and using peer pressure to get the "bad guy" to do the right thing.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Or, to carry on with that idea, how many of these "rectified deals" would have been blown off by these "reformed bad guys," if it were not for the BOI and its more "energetic" members? Maybe I'm just kidding myself, but I like to think we've helped along those lines in some cases.

The best defense is a good offense!

 

[Adam Block]

You guys aren't talking about me are you?

All of the above applies to me so let me say a few quick things.

When people that don't know the people the thread is about start posting this is what happens.

"They live in AZ, a lot of retired people live there, maybe they live with their grandparents"

"You should contact the FBI, it sounds like you've been taken so file charges"

"That's a Mexican last name, I bet they stole your money and fled to Mexico"

When the fact is Jerry Sanchez was adopted by a couple who moved to Phoenix for heath reasons and he got in a car crash so he's been in the hospital.

Somebody who knew Jerry would know this, somebody who didn't might assume the above. I think one of the troubles on the BOI is the assumptions, I've done it, we all have and I'm going to stop. If I don't know either party I'm gonna do my best to butt out.

As for the phone call thing. Please picture this:

The whole picture involves parties A, B, C and D. However C and D don't want to get involved publicly. They don't mind telling people on the phone or it getting around by word of mouth but as you've said this is a public forum and they don't want the general public knowing how they feel.

To respect their wishes you of course aren't at liberty to say what they said in a public manner.

Now if you call me and I tell you what C and D told me and you don't buy it so you call them yourself and find out it's true. Then the bruden of their trust or in this case breaking it by putting it on the net when you were asked not to is no longer my business. Sometimes, mainly when you are trusted or have other peoples reputations you're dealing with it's not fair to make a judgement call for them. There are many breeders turned off by the way the BOI works. Bob Clark is one guy I'm sure we'll never see here again. Because of this they don't wanna get into BOI issues. When that's the case sadly a phone call is going to be the best you get.

I hope that come accross sort of clear. Sometimes when you're speaking in 3rd party or about other people you have to respect their wishes.

 

[Darin Chappell]

You may not believe this, Adam, but I actually was not considering you when I started this thread. I was actually referring to others, but that's irrelevant, I suppose.

I would just make one suggestion to you. If you feel that a situation is best handled in a way other than that by which the BOI normally conducts itself, handle it elsewhere! Don't try to change the BOI to suit your needs in any given situation, that's what emails are for.

There are lots of times that I have typed out an entire response top someone I believe to be this week's "National Pinhead Candidate," only to delete the entirty of it once I realized that it was material not really suited to the BOI. I just rewrote it in an email, and sent it that way. My point was made, and I didn't have to clutter the BOI with things that did not need to be there.

I just see no reason for trying to change a tire with a potato peeler and then condemning the potato peeler for being inefective. It was never meant for that task, so what is sillier than being upset about a tool that does not do what it was never designed to accomplish?

 

[Dragondad]

OK Darrin

You point is well thought out and in essence I agree that putting the pressure on a bad transaction is worth while. My reservations come in the following areas.

Person x post a good guy(we will talk about the terms later) thread about Neil(sorry Neil). That is their experience and they have the right to post it. So where is the structure of the BOI does the very next post turn neg about Neil. How is that peer pressure at work. Granted a good transaction doesnt make for a good guy but come on there is nothing to make good there is only the constant battle from the same voices over the same issues. Person x didnt ask for an opinion of Neil, they didnt say "should I do business" they have just said "I did business and I am happy with it"

Person y posts an inquery about Upstate, everyone has the chance to jump in and does so. Person y has made the deal but when person y has some problems with the deal all assumption is that Upstate is "up to their same old tricks". Yet in the end with its found that Upstate wasnt playing games and things went well. Where were all the neg posters saying gee they got one or congrats we were wrong this time. Where is the peer pressure what good was all the neg except to keep a neg slant to what turns out ok.

Every time anyone posts about either of these parties in a pos manner the neg people cant leave it alone and change it all. I agree one good transaction doesnt make for a good guy but one bad one doesnt make for a bad guy either.

People want to post concerning the bad guys(with or without personal experience) then do so but when its a part of the thread to help with a bad transaction or when its part of the open ended question of future business. Let those that do have the good experiences alone so that others can make up their minds based on the topical searches.

Or maybe the thought should be this. Do any of you think that ranting about Upstate or Neil will put them out of business? Hasnt so far!!! Is it going to make them change their ways maybe but what good does it do if all the changes never get noticed because of the constant harassment from a few.

Darrin this is specifically directed at you, if the BOI existed in the early church do you think Saul/Paul would have faired based on his previous zeal. Or what your saying is once they have done bad they are always bad. Or maybe your bible is different than mine since I thought Jesus taught compasion and forgiveness. And more so being judgemental isnt the province of man but of God.

 

[JungleHabitats]

Michaeal

I under stand th points you have put forth heres my take on ALOT that goes on in the BOI and why it may do so .

You used to members as your examples in your arguement.So i will only address those parties ( sorry Neil this is not a slam on you merely an example)

Ok in accordiance to Neil , While i will have to admit that over the last few years alot of the damnation he got here may not have been 100% justified due to the recent light shed on the break-ins in Tampa.BUT i think ALOT of people take into consdieration a persons attitude towards people they call peers / friends etc in general.Now if we take out the fact that Neil from the recent turn of events did not commit the breakins to his shop i say YES he deserves some apologies from the people who accused or assumed he did which for the most part i think has happened i know i have give him that respect .But somethings are not so easily swallowed by people. Case in point the email he sent out to the wrong person while yes ok maybe he didnt intend to send it to that person that received it BUT the fact that he sent it PERIOD sickened many who until that point had stood fast beside Neil and took up arms in his cause (donating money)Now while maybe we can say well it wasnt meant in the context it was written ? does that really validate it being sent at all?And then he came in his deffense to say it wasnt meant for us to see but we were taking it out of context as didnt feel like that towards everyone. Well i say if you are going to write /type anything in negitive light on a person/s you should use the ones you are taling about by there names.If he had used that same letter and substituted names instead of generalizing he would probably never got the reaction he did as then the majority could have made there own judgement as to the names he had reffered to .Personally i have never had a transaction with Neil i did come close to sending him a nice cage display for his Tampa shop , BUT in light of what was transpiring at the time and the breakins and that email i decided that in MY interest i would not make the deal to send him a cage for nothing as it was going to be for advertising . Now some may say that was wrong of me , i dont know nor care i was looking out for my interest at the time and felt it better to not get invloved at any level.Since then i wont say with 100%surety that i have not directed any person away from neil but when a person asked of Neil i would direct them to threads or to do a vast search on him .before making a transaction. i think with those taking into consideration it would guve aperson fair amunition to make a informed choice / decision to do what the see fit for them.



Now to Upstate i will say that with them they have VERY shady reputation asi have never dealt with them either but even in the recent event that Vinnie got his cage as Sal said he would i personally would still WARN anyone that asked of doing buisness with them. This was made IMHO very clear in there transaction before Vinnie's when they strung along a customer for almost 2 months told repeated lies to them , gave out a blatent INVALID tracking number told that person there would be unavailable for contact for several days for a show then post MANY classifieds at one certain site while there customer was wanting some answers to why /where & howcome they have not got there product yet.now granted they claimed they had a death in the family ( understandable for no contact for a few days ) but when you RUN a BUISNESS you have to be responsible and atleast let you paying customers know what you a dealing with. IMHO its totally unacceptable to come to the BOI only after 6-7 weeks and then use that as anexcuse as to why they didnt get there paid product. A list of excuses that sal gave was from they were waiting for materials , the guy that builds them is busy , Sal hurt his back ,going to a show wont be available a few days , sent a bogus tracking number ( this they should have known would bite them in the ass ) then to say a week later they were dropping it off for shipping ? then give more runarounds , then a week or so later after it didnt show and the customer asked for a refund they say welll we have to wait for paypal to let us ? there a buisness they have funds ... right ?cahiers checks /Money orders many ways to refund ... then a week later after this cage was "shipped " they picked it up and was going to refund the guys $ come on now it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that whole deal was nothing but lies smoke & mirrors.

And back to Vinnies deal that he did recieve the cage ok yeah they did what they said .. so why should that be all high and mighty thats what you EXPECT a buisnes to do when they agree to do something . But one question i have asked of that deal , the damaged cages were insured so with that and that vinnie didnt need them why should Vinnie be made to wait till the claim is settled with UPS ? Sal should have sent Vinnie a refund check for that amount ASAP and then took up the matter with UPS for his refund for the damage ?so bottom line and i will pose this to the thread for vinnie to see if he has received his refund yet. Its simple dont spend the $ untill you have a happy customer and the deal is final other then that if something like what happened goes wrong then you are able to send out a fast refund and then ONLY then Upsate may have been given some slack for doing what a buisness should do ... make a customer 100% happy


so i think alot of people who catch hell bring more then 98% on themselves for there actions and reactions in how they handle themselves in adeal. i know if i walkedin and paid for something at any other buisness and weeks went buy with repeated BS and then i get something and its not to par i would want answers and something done be it a refund or a new product as to the calibar i was expecting from the start .and if that couldnt be done i would expect my money back just as fast as they got it to start with or i would then be on there ass just as fast as i would be on anyone here .

 

[Darin Chappell]

I sent you a PM, Michael.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Alan and Michael.... I don't mind you using me as an example at all.... don't sweat it....

In relation to the "email" I sent.... no matter how many times I try to explain it, there are some that never seems to get it, or they've had that mentaility about me for so long, they don't WANT to understand it.... I was NOT talking about the site itself, or ALL the people on the site.... I was talking about SOME of the people on the site.... I have mentioned "The Dirty Dozen" more than a few times.... it should have been plainly obvious who I was referring to in that email.... I sent that email when I was at the end of my rope as far as what Lawson was doing to me and MOST everyone was believing him.... nothing I said or did would make any difference, I was guilty without a shread of evidence.... I didn't like that at all, and I lashed out.... It happens to the best of us at one time or another....

There is NOT one person who blasted me that is a saint.... every one of them has had to apologize for something at one time in their lives, whether they want to admit it or not.... NOBODY is perfect!.... there is one guy (name withheld) that has been dissing me that I know for a FACT that HE has sent out at least FOUR snakes (that I know of) that were shipped out KNOWINGLY SICK and DIED within a week of their shipping.... and they have NOT been made right, yet.... Have I outted him??.... NO!.... And because nobody knows of these transactions, this person acts all high and mighty when it comes to others' digressions.... This person is one of the most hypocritical people I have ever had the displeasure of talking to.... I have NEVER put up a "bad guy" thread on anyone, because I think these matters should be dealt with by the two people involved ONLY.... if the problem is NOT solved to the satisfaction of the offended party, THEN and ONLY THEN should it be posted on this site....

I don't expect everybody to like me, that will never happen to anybody.... All you can do is the best you can.... Peer pressure is fine for what it is, but, there are times when you have to do what YOU think is right, even if it's not in agreement with your "peers".... You're right, though.... one bad deal doesn't make a bad guy and one good deal doesn't make a good guy....

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.... but, opinions should be at least based on FACTS and not just assumptions or hearsay, without knowing the facts, that person just comes off not looking so good.... and then, when the facts are finally discovered, some of those dissenters don't have the guts to say they were wrong.... ya know, "open mouth, insert foot"??.... What does that say about them??.... I have decided to treat those people as non-entities, their opinions and statements mean absolutely nothing to me.... on the other hand, there are a LOT of folks on this site that DID have the moral perpetude to say they were wrong (like you, Alan and Michael and Rob and Rich and Rozann and Ritchie and Ray and Robin and Jerry and many, many others).... YOU are the people whose opinions mean much more to me than the others, because I RESPECT the fact that you can SAY you were wrong.... that takes guts and it shows your maturity....

I've made a FEW mistakes, and I've made "almost" all of them right.... I have never changed my business eithics or practices (and I never will).... I KNOW what's right and what's wrong.... and I will always TRY to do right (believe it or not)....

As I've always said....
"Two wrongs don't make a right.... but THREE rights, make a left!"

As far as Upstate goes.... Sal and Alison are two of the nicest people you will ever want to meet.... I agree, though, they really screwed up with that one deal.... and I TOLD them so!!.... In the last month, I have SOLD THEM over $5000 worth of animals that they DIDN'T pay for BEFORE they received them.... they have since paid me EVERY PENNY of what they owed me.... Alison did my website and goes way out of her way to make changes on the site that I want (for NO money), sometimes, up to three times a DAY!.... I KNOW they sell high-quality animals because a lot of them come from ME!!.... They, too, have made mistakes, but (for the most part) they are as honest as the day is long.... Yes, I know there are many people that wouldn't trust them now because of that one deal, but, the FACT is, that they made it right??.... They were having a LOT of family problems back then, not to mention moving to a new house and not having a phone for three weeks because of the move.... it was a very difficult time in their lives.... They have since got their "stuff" together, and Vinny was their first deal after that.... I've already told Sal that HE should reimburse Vinny and then go after UPS on his own.... but, that is between THEM!.... It is NONE of our business.... As with me, they have done hundreds of deals with only a few problems.... that DOESN'T make them "bad guys".... They are good guys that have had a couple of problems....that's IT!

Alan.... As I have told you privately, I absolutely understand why you cancelled our cage deal.... I probably would have done the same thing had I been in your shoes.... of course, I would have NEVER ripped you off in any way, shape or form.... your impression was turned by one of the best con-men in this business (Lawson), the man could sell ice cubes to an Eskimo in the middle of winter!.... That (obviously) doesn't make him right!.... He's the PERFECT example of why you shouldn't listen to innuendo, supposition or hearsay.... without the FACTS, you never know what you're going to end up with....

Neil