Bad Guy Chaos Reptiles and Pet Supply, Dan Peck and Josh Stone

[DAND]

So... this all started from a gimpy leg leo, and a slightly late payment for some crickets? This is pretty ridiculous, especially in light of the fact all concerned parties have been paid in full, and Dan offered to replace the leo.

Yeah, that’s all it was. Good God what post are you reading. Where did you get those rose colored glasses? Yet another person who’s collection I would dread to see. Let’s see here the Jay Fiore translation for MBD is – “gimpy leg leo”. He provides us with no translation for tapeworms so we must guess his selective reading must have overlooked this term. Writing of bad checks translates to – “slightly late payment for crickets”. Guess the almost 2 months it took them to make things right with Neil would translate to short term investment or something “pretty ridiculous” like that. What would your translation be for the misrepresentation of animals? Grab bag genetics? As for Dan offering to replace the gecko, well Dan offers and claims a lot and follows through with very little.

How many of these posters bashing Chaos have ever actually done business or have been owed money by them? It seems like most of these people are just friends of Dave, trying to make mountains out of mole hills.

At least 3 (so far) that I count but I’m pretty sure you weren’t really looking for an answer. Again we have to translate the telling of a truthful account, confirmed by the accused, becomes “bashing”. But… your first post (how many other first time posters have come to post for Chaos? If these guys were that special then why did it take a bad guy thread for you to join and post here? Is Dan soliciting supporters again?) here is making little of the facts that they have written at least two bad checks, sold more than one disabled or infected animal, misrepresentation of animals and poor animal husbandry. Great guys you are showing your support for.

I've done thousands of dollars worth of business with Chaos, and they are one of my favorite businesses to work with. Of the dozens of animals I've purchased from them, I've never had any come in in less than flawless condition. Every time he has purchased from me, his payments were always prompt.

I find that very hard to believe.

I'm not sure what Dave's ulterior motive is for making such a big deal over nothing, but its certainly not for the reasons he's saying. It seems that perhaps Dave had a falling out with Chaos, and is just trying to wage a personal crusade against them despite the fact that Chaos has made good on their promises.

How long was it between the writing of the bad check to me and the posting of this thread here? I hesitated making the post because we were friends but the way these two clowns treat their friends is something that needed to be brought to light. Had they heeded my advice and kept their mouths shut I probably wouldn’t have posted this thread but when they (like you my uninformed friend) want to make the guy who was written the bad check to, lied to and about the bad guy then I will set things straight.

I will keep doing business with Chaos without hesitation.

And I hope your track record with them continues and that you don’t get taken advantage of like I was. I would also hope that your practice of quarantine measures is better than that of Chaos.

 

[Centipede Uncivil]

I'm not a fan of the forums on FC, so bear with me. Which is why it took a bad guy post about Chaos to get me to post.

I do not know how to quote your post, but i will address your points in order.

I enjoyed your subtle dig at the supposed health of my collection. Rest assured, friend, my collection is very healthy. While we are on the subject of personal collections, have you ever seen Dan's? If you had you wouldn't bother trying to cast doubt on his ability to properly care for animals.

Chaos deals with thousands upon thousands of animals every year, it is inevitable that occasional bad animals are going to make it through. Not everyone will step up and try to rectify a situation like that, Chaos has. If you didn't take them up on their offer to replace the gecko, you don't really have any room to complain.

I understand being a little peeved about the late payment. Despite this, the bottom line is that all parties have been paid for quite a while. Dragging this out is "pretty ridiculous".

If you don't believe me regarding the quality of the animals I've purchased from Chaos, that's fine. I don't really care if you believe me, but it is true.

Friends, huh? If this is how you treat friends after a minor transgression, I feel sorry for your enemies.

What this boils down to is a guy making mountains out of mole hills in some attempt to extract revenge on a minor sleight. I know there's nothing I could really say to dissuade you from your mission, so I won't attempt to. All I can say is, in the end, you just can't make some people happy.

 

[AvandisFifth187]

In response to centipede...

I do not know how to quote your post...

I'd copy and paste whatever you want to quote to a wordpad, because you can't see the previous threads while replying as far as I know. Copy and paste whatever it is you'd like to qoute into the thread, then highlight it and press the "Wrap quote tags around selected text" button. It looks like a speech bubble, the second button from the right in the text editing bar area at the top of the post.

So... this all started from a gimpy leg leo, and a slightly late payment for some crickets?

It wasn't just a gimpy leg. MBD is a serious disease, though it is prevantable. "MBD is almost always a result of poor husbandry, but generally preventable by providing a proper environment and diet" (Lianne McLeod, DVM) This brings into question how chaos treats their breeders. "Normally this ratio should be around 2:1 calciumhosphorus (in the range of 1:1 to 2:1). When the calcium level is relatively low the body tries to compensate by taking calcium from wherever it can, for example the bones. This leads to a softening of the bones, making them susceptible to fractures and also leading to a deposition of fibrous tissue as the body tries to strengthen the bone in an absence of available calcium" (Lianne McLeod, DVM). The fact that when it was first brought up to Chaos, the previous poster was told it is still breedable astounds me. If the animal is calcium deficient already, what would happen to it when it starts producing eggs (which requires a large amount of calcium). Honestly, I wouldn't trade it either. Who's to say they wouldn't breed it, as suggested, and possibly lead it to it's death. Or who's to say he wouldn't be trading it for another diseased or parasite infected reptile? If I have just one bad experience with a company or breeder, I do not go back to them. I'm just that way, and I'm sure the previous poster is somewhat similar. As for the late payment, a few months is not "slightly late." That is just ridiculus. Don't make the purchase if you can't pay for it.

How many of these posters bashing Chaos have ever actually done business or have been owed money by them?

I have done business with them. I have never purchased animals because, in all honesty, as enticing as many of the animals there were I, their conditions weren't quite up to my standards. I have had an experience with them concerning a gift certificate. Read my earlier post to get that story.

I've done thousands of dollars worth of business with Chaos, and they are one of my favorite businesses to work with. Of the dozens of animals I've purchased from them, I've never had any come in in less than flawless condition.

That's great for you, and I'm not trying to be condecending when I say that, either. If they treat you well and ensure you get good quality animals, than please continue to do business with them. Some might say that they treat you so well because you have done "thousands of dollars worth of business" with them. I'd just say you are a prefered customer of Chaos Reptile and Supply.

While we are on the subject of personal collections, have you ever seen Dan's?

I think most people can agree on this site that no matter how bad you are with your "business" animals, other peoples animals, or how good or bad a person you are, most people are going to take great if not exceptional care of their own collection.

Chaos deals with thousands upon thousands of animals every year, it is inevitable that occasional bad animals are going to make it through.

True, but I've heard enough reports of the health of their animals both through this site and through word of mouth to be weary. Granted, if I hear of only a few animals being sickly or unkempt, I'm weary, but I digress.

If you didn't take them up on their offer to replace the gecko, you don't really have any room to complain.

Again I say, I wouldn't quite trust a trade myself. This is why most companies do an examination of the animals before sales or at least offer some kind of warning as to what the animal MAY be ailed with upon sale. May I ask, do they have any kind of formal return policy, contract, or garuantee?

I understand being a little peeved about the late payment. Despite this, the bottom line is that all parties have been paid for quite a while.

Again, the payment time was a bit ridiculous. And this is not simply the bottom line. The amount of time it took is part of the "bottom line." If there are people that do not know of this, and they happen to be forced to accept a late payment from a company when they were counting on the money, then there would be a much bigger hell being raised. What if Dave needed the money for something more urgent than a tooth problem? What if it was his or someones health or housing, etc, etc that was it risk? I will say, not a great idea for a business owner to extend credit or accept late payment unless there is some sort of contract (preferably written) produced, but I believe such a transaction as what took place constitutes a verbal contract. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's just irresponsible business to being paying late in general, let alone a couple of months.

What this boils down to is a guy making mountains out of mole hills in some attempt to extract revenge on a minor sleight.

"You cannot build a mountain where a volcanoe already sits, waiting to erupt."---Talia Stephens

All I can say is, in the end, you just can't make some people happy.

I agree. No matter what you do there will always be people in the world that thrive on their own anger and misery, but that's why a large effort should be put in to at least try. I'm not saying that Chaos didn't try, but it seems they didn't put a huge effort it.

As for the whole thing about this being a bunch of Dave's friends defending him and bashing chaos, I've only ever spoken with Dave twice in person, and both times I was just buying crickets at the Cleveland Reptile show. The only other contact I've had with him was through a message asking about crickets, one other post on this thread that I posted asking about breeding crickets, and on this thread. I do not believe this would make me personal friend of Dave's.

One last paragraphical rant...
About Dave's Sign.... I have not seen anything on any sign that could be considered liable. It is in fact a warning... I can't see how that can be taken as liable. It may seem a bit harsh or dramatic, but it helps draw attention to the sign that an informed customer would like to see. "Do not extend credit to or except checks from Chaos Reptiles and Supplies." I do not see anything that could possibly be considered written defamation here. He is not badmouthing them, he is not lying about anything, he is not intentionally damaging their reputation. If he were to put "Do not extend credit to or accept checks from Chaos Reptiles and Supply, you will get screwed over," or something along those lines, I could understand, but there is no such written material contained in his sign. As I promoter, I could understand not liking it because it may cause tension between vendors or friends of vendors, but it would fail as cause for a lawsuit.

Now I must apologize if I have offended anyone. I have posted my oppinion and my experience, and I expect everyone else to do the same!

------Cj Algeri

 

[garweft]

...While we are on the subject of personal collections, have you ever seen Dan's? If you had you wouldn't bother trying to cast doubt on his ability to properly care for animals.

Chaos deals with thousands upon thousands of animals every year, it is inevitable that occasional bad animals are going to make it through.....

You need to reread the original post about the "gimpy leg" Leopard Gecko. That Leo was out of there personal collection!!!.

 

[DAND]

I'm not a fan of the forums on FC, so bear with me. Which is why it took a bad guy post about Chaos to get me to post.

I was figuring you missed Dan’s first bunch of requests for support. Guess you got the text this time. But I guess this answers my pervious inquiry:

Is Dan soliciting supporters again?

Obviously.

I enjoyed your subtle dig at the supposed health of my collection. Rest assured, friend, my collection is very healthy. While we are on the subject of personal collections, have you ever seen Dan's? If you had you wouldn't bother trying to cast doubt on his ability to properly care for animals.

I’m glad you enjoyed (yet surprised) you caught my subtle dig. While I have not seen Dan’s collection, I HAVE SEEN HIS SHOP, have you? If his shop was anything indicative of the upkeep of his personal collection I would not want to see it. I’m sorry but when Dan is claiming to have just worked for 10-12 hours painting and then comes to the shop for 4 hours and doesn’t do anything other than socialize with the few customers that show up, I find it hard to believe he goes home and cares for his own animals. I do not have to try “to cast doubt on his ability to properly care for animals”, I (as well as many others) have seen first hand how he and his business partner have neglected the animals in their care. Hell at least they got better treatment after they opened the shop which was better than living in deli cups on Josh’s dining room table. I’m guessing you didn’t bother to read the e-mails between Dan and I so I will include this for you:

Poor quality of animal up keep!!? I agree, and you can also say that, that has changed dramatically since I have been working the shop full time. ?

Dan was aware that Josh was not maintaining the animals correctly by his own admission. That alone should tell you something. Though, when Dan took over the shop things didn’t change one bit. Dan made a lot of claims that he was going to “dial it in” and that Josh would have a list of things to do come spring when he took over the running of the shop again. That was Wednesday, come Sunday Dan was then claiming it was a 2 man, full time job just to maintain the animals. Of course nothing had been done during those few days and animals were still without water let alone water bowls in their tanks or enclosures. How about the animals that had been cupped up on Thursday for shows over the weekend and still cupped up almost a week later or longer. I witnessed this when both Dan and Josh were running the shop.

Chaos deals with thousands upon thousands of animals every year, it is inevitable that occasional bad animals are going to make it through. Not everyone will step up and try to rectify a situation like that, Chaos has. If you didn't take them up on their offer to replace the gecko, you don't really have any room to complain.

They deal with imports and poor quality imports at that. Were they to deal with a better supplier of animals and take care of them properly then maybe they wouldn’t have to go through thousand upon thousands of animals to make a few hundred animals sales. I have witnessed Josh toss the “inevitable” “occasional bad animal” underneath the table at shows after realizing (usually with someone else's help) it had died.

Chaos did not attempt to rectify anything until after I started displaying my sign. As for the gecko, I’m sorry but if that animal is a representation of their personal breeders I would not suggest accepting a replacement even if one were available. It took this being brought out in public for them to “step up”. They have made good on some outstanding debts but have continued to blame everyone else for their situation. It’s my fault for displaying the sign, it’s my fault for starting this thread, other vendors and promoters are ganging up on them, their landlord screwed them, Neil provided him with the 66% het for cinnie. Do you need me to go on? I’d rather the two children at Chaos stop blaming others and become men and own up to their mistakes. They screwed the pooch and it has been brought out in the open for all to see and they are embarrassed but not mature enough to own up to their mistakes and move on. They want to play games and blame everyone else for their problems.

I understand being a little peeved about the late payment. Despite this, the bottom line is that all parties* have been paid for quite a while. Dragging this out is "pretty ridiculous".

*All parties that we know of. Late payment? No. I had a bad check written to. The only thing I see as being “pretty ridiculous” is your apparent lack of understanding that writing a bad check is wrong, not to mention illegal. I really wish now that I had gone to the police station versus back to the shop.

If you don't believe me regarding the quality of the animals I've purchased from Chaos, that's fine. I don't really care if you believe me, but it is true.

If you want me to believe you, then start telling the truth. Like you were frequenting Fauna and just happen to come across this thread (a month after it started) versus a request from Dan for support.

Friends, huh? If this is how you treat friends after a minor transgression, I feel sorry for your enemies.

Now you go and say something that causes me to rethink your intellectual abilities. Up until now I thought you just weren’t paying attention or maybe just slow but I see you have some sense. A moment of lucidity huh?

I got a question for you, what kind of friend writes another friend a bad check? I’m sorry but lying to and writing a friend a bad check is not a minor transgression in any shape or form. With friends like that, you don’t need enemies. I see you suffer from the same simplemindedness as Dan and Josh as to who the bad guy is, the guy who writes the bad check or the guy who received the bad check. I cannot understand how you can condone the writing of bad checks let alone support someone who does.

Were you to know me, you’d know I go out of my way to help others, especially my friends, and had Dan said to me, I don’t have the cash right now, here is $20 bucks for now, can I catch you later? This thread would not have been started. But Dan wanted to try and play games with me and I don’t play well with others especially when someone thinks they are going to pull a fast one on me. Then when he goes and tries to make me out to be the bad guy saying that I wouldn’t take a post dated check when in reality he owed me for the previous week’s order and then writes me a bad check to cover both orders. You see, what Dan wasn’t aware of was I already knew of Neil’s bad check as well as the phone call I had received from a supplier of his asking if he should be worried about receiving a check versus the promised cash for some animals he brought to the shop. After 2-3 attempts this person was able to get his money, so when he wrote me a check I knew better than to go to any other bank but theirs to try and cash the check.

What this boils down to is a guy making mountains out of mole hills in some attempt to extract revenge on a minor sleight. I know there's nothing I could really say to dissuade you from your mission, so I won't attempt to. All I can say is, in the end, you just can't make some people happy.

What this boils down to is two lying children attempting to play games with the adults. The adults don’t want to nor need to play games. If the children want to continue on their current self-destructive path then it is inevitable that their career suicide will succeed and no amount of solicited support will change that or make it go away. Hell, when they want to pretend that they make $250,00.00 + as posted on their My Space profile (which has now become a private profile since the day I posted a screen shot of that farce, internet troubles my ass) but they can’t even cover payment for their suppliers, the games need to stop. Dan claimed to be having internet troubles but has been online every day on My Space. It just goes to show yet again he is a liar. He wants to try and avoid answering the questions here and lied about not being able to get online when he clearly was and is online. And we all know he checks this thread every time he gets an e-mail notification. Hi Dan, going to reply today?

 

[snakewrangler]

Completely off topic, but I agree. I hate Hamburg. It's filthy and the promoter shoved way too many vendors in a small space so that navigating the aisles is near impossible. I've decided to stop going to and vending at Hamburg unless I need to deliver a large order. It's just not worth the aggravation.

Sorry to post something slightly off-topic, but isn't this statement the TRUTH!

 

[Jenna813]

My boyfriend (Nick) is the one who purchased the "66%" snake from chaos. I just wanted to clear a couple things up.

We don't now, nor did we before feel like we got ripped off in terms of money. Gary and Dave made it completely clear that we paid a legit price for a normal female.

However, the snake that was sold to Nick was not sold as a normal female. When he called me after he left the shop, he told me that he just purchased a cinnamon het. I suppose chaos could've said it was a normal and Nick just somehow made it up, but then again that doesn't explain why it was written on the container.

We're not even close to being experts in genetics, but that doesn't mean we had to be taken advantage of in order to make a sale. It comes back to having basic morals and standing behind what you sell.

I would like to thank Gary and Dave for telling it like it is and always being extremely helpful and honest whenever we go to the shows.

-Jenna Shihadeh

 

[Gary O]

My boyfriend (Nick) is the one who purchased the "66%" snake from chaos. I just wanted to clear a couple things up.

We don't now, nor did we before feel like we got ripped off in terms of money. Gary and Dave made it completely clear that we paid a legit price for a normal female.

However, the snake that was sold to Nick was not sold as a normal female. When he called me after he left the shop, he told me that he just purchased a cinnamon het. I suppose chaos could've said it was a normal and Nick just somehow made it up, but then again that doesn't explain why it was written on the container.

We're not even close to being experts in genetics, but that doesn't mean we had to be taken advantage of in order to make a sale. It comes back to having basic morals and standing behind what you sell.

I would like to thank Gary and Dave for telling it like it is and always being extremely helpful and honest whenever we go to the shows.

-Jenna Shihadeh

No worries at all Jenna. You and Nick can come to me for anything. You have my card if you ever have a question about something just give me a call.

 

[DAND]

We're not even close to being experts in genetics, but that doesn't mean we had to be taken advantage of in order to make a sale. It comes back to having basic morals and standing behind what you sell.

I would like to thank Gary and Dave for telling it like it is and always being extremely helpful and honest whenever we go to the shows.

-Jenna Shihadeh

Unfortunately, neither are Dan or Josh.

Basic morals appear to be overridden by the almighty dollar. In the short amount of time their shop was open I cannot count the number of times someone was returning after an animal had died. That coupled with the misinformation given out or misrepresentation of animals (sold as gravid, sold as CB, claimed to have been produced by them, etc...) it should have been a no-brainer as to why I was limiting the time I was present at the shop (I still have people thinking I am associated with Chaos and I have worked too hard to have my name associated with the likes of these two and their shady business dealings). The scary thing is how many times I witnessed people returning dead animals. It makes me wonder how many others came in when I wasn't there dropping off crickets. And I'm sorry, store credit as the only option for a dead animal is not my idea of stepping up and making it good.

Jenna, you are very welcome and you can rest assured I will continue to tell it like it is. And as Gary said, if you ever need anything feel free to contact me anytime and I will do my best to help you and Nick out.

 

[Docmurder]

Honestly Dave, I dont do business with you nor have i ever and from what is seems you are usually a stand up guy. I think that you should let this go and stop putting up your signs. you have been paid whether it took the forum posting or not they made it right. Dan has offered to rectify the situation with the gecko and I'm sure that he would take the gecko back and give him cash for it and probably would have the second they found out it had a problem. Dan and Josh are well aware that they were struggling with the new store and have been making changes and have more plans to make things easier on them and streamline the business. it is not my place to tell you what their plans are but I believe they are attempting to take all the right steps to get their business where they want it to be. I have done business with Dan and Josh I vend with Josh at the Indy show just about every time. I see how they do business and I enjoy working with them and doing business with them. They have owed me money in the past and i have been paid. Also from knowing Dan and Josh I doubt that they would purposely write you a bad check and it was an isolated incident relating to the financial troubles of starting a new business. it didn't take posting signs on tables and it didn't take a BOI post. all it took was communication and maybe a little understanding. Personally I dislike the way that you hang on to your anger and I don't think that i will ever buy from you because simply it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I think you need to make a post saying that Dan and Josh have rectified the situation and are now in good standing with you and then leave it at that. I was informed of the existence of this post by Josh and I formed my own unbiased opinion relative to my business dealings with Dan and Josh and what I see here. Whether you like Dan and Josh or not i am neither and you do not know me so don't try to make guesses about my character or animal husbandry.

Joshua Frederick

 

[DAND]

Honestly Dave, I dont do business with you nor have i ever and from what is seems you are usually a stand up guy.

Well, when a stand up guy informs an intelligent person that the people they are dealing with are dishonest it would make sense to listen to him. Obviously you are not listening or just not intelligent.

I think that you should let this go and stop putting up your signs. you have been paid whether it took the forum posting or not they made it right. Dan has offered to rectify the situation with the gecko and I'm sure that he would take the gecko back and give him cash for it and probably would have the second they found out it had a problem.

When the surgeon general puts warning labels on their foreheads or they change their ways I’ll let this go. I do not foresee either happening so I guess my sign and I will continue our tour of the Midwest. Again, they both need to learn to shut their mouths about me, period. Continuing to badmouth me is the equivalent of poking a bear. Don’t come running to me complaining when you’ve got bear’s attention after being warned not to poke the bear.

You may want to go back and read (obviously for the first time) the description of events pertaining to the gecko. A refund was not offered when Jim brought it to Josh’s attention. The only thing offered “the second they found out “ was piss poor advice that the gecko was fine and could still be bred.

As for Dan, Dan offers a lot and follows through with very little to none. It is my understanding that Jim had e-mailed Dan and has NOT received any reply back. As for Chaos taking the gecko back, I do not think Jim would subject the animal to the probability of further abuse or death or the likely scenario of the gecko being resold to someone else. They were unable to care for the gecko before be it ignorance or laziness and the chances of their husbandry skills improving or their laziness lessening are both unlikely. Not to mention, I have seen on at least 2 different occasions when someone came back to the shop with a dead animal and their reluctance to refund any money whatsoever. Store credit or the replacement of the dead animal with another animal that has had the same neglect is not making good on anything.

Dan and Josh are well aware that they were struggling with the new store and have been making changes and have more plans to make things easier on them and streamline the business. it is not my place to tell you what their plans are but I believe they are attempting to take all the right steps to get their business where they want it to be.

Better late then never but after seeing how they have handled this I believe they will continue to cut corners, lie to their customers, suppliers and helpers like you yourself and run their business into the ground. They are both dishonest and dishonesty and running a business just doesn’t mix. Misrepresenting animals cannot be excused but Dan and Josh as well as the few Chaos supporters like yourself who have replied have overlooked or disregarded this fact entirely. Just as they (you) have ignored the facts that not only have they sold misrepresented and unhealthy animals but they were the cause of the animal’s unsatisfactory conditions.

I have done business with Dan and Josh I vend with Josh at the Indy show just about every time. I see how they do business and I enjoy working with them and doing business with them. They have owed me money in the past and i have been paid.

You are being used and until your usefulness stops they will be your best of friends. I’m guessing that you are they guy who works for table space. The same person I saw working while Josh sat and counted the money or attempted to look busy with minor things like folding the table cloths, versus moving or packing anything of substance. I have heard of you and it just tickles Josh pink that you are willing to work only for table space.

Also from knowing Dan and Josh I doubt that they would purposely write you a bad check and it was an isolated incident relating to the financial troubles of starting a new business.

I’m sorry but if you actually believe that or think anyone else believes it then you are a complete idiot.

it didn't take posting signs on tables and it didn't take a BOI post. all it took was communication and maybe a little understanding. Personally I dislike the way that you hang on to your anger and I don't think that i will ever buy from you because simply it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Sorry but communication is a two way street and when dealing with liars, communication and understanding can only go so far when one is being honest and the other is lying. Had Dan said to me (like he did the previous week) that he didn’t have the money, here’s $20 bucks, can I catch up with you later, things would have been a lot different, but he chose to KNOWINGLY lie to me and write me a bad check. Since you didn’t bother to read the previous posts, he did this after already writing Neil a bad check the week prior. So your claim of this being an isolated incident is obviously untrue/incorrect.

I’m sorry but you seem to be parroting Josh and Dan about “my anger”. I am disappointed about how they treated me and how they lied to me. The only thing that angers me is their continual bad mouthing of me. I go out of my way to help these two losers and I get written a bad check and I’m the bad guy for trying to make sure that someone else doesn’t get taken advantage of as I (or Neil) was.

I guess if you’d rather purchase from known and admitted liars and cheats versus someone who is a “stand up guy” that understands and practices proper animal husbandry and doesn’t misrepresent his animals it speaks more of your character (or lack there of) then you obviously realize. I am not in the need of customers with questionable character and do my best to avoid such ilk.

I think you need to make a post saying that Dan and Josh have rectified the situation and are now in good standing with you and then leave it at that.

I think Josh and Dan need to come and (truthfully) answer the questions that were asked here and be men and admit to the wrong doings they have done and that they will correct their mistakes and then we can all move on.


Had they both kept or would now keep their mouths shut versus talking crap about me and trying to make it everyone else’s fault but their own for their current situation things would not be where they are. They, not I will determine when this stops. As I wrote to Dan in my e-mails prior to even posting this thread, pay me what you owe me (yes, that was done), leave me alone and move on (yet to be done). They did not heed my advice and are now complaining after being well warned in advance.

I was informed of the existence of this post by Josh and I formed my own unbiased opinion relative to my business dealings with Dan and Josh and what I see here.

You have formed an uneducated biased opinion from what I see here. Your minimalism or excusing of their actions shows your ignorance. You have worked with them for a few hours a month while I have worked with them for hours a day for a number of months and I have witnessed many, many things that I do not deem as acceptable business practices. If others saw what I have seen their opinions would not differ from mine unless they possessed the same disregard for honesty or animal’s well being as Chaos has shown me they possess.

Whether you like Dan and Josh or not i am neither and you do not know me so don't try to make guesses about my character or animal husbandry.

I do not have to make any guesses about your character or animal husbandry your post has removed any doubt whatsoever.

 

[lpcad]

I sent Dan a message on February 5th and have not heard anything back.
Dave is right i would not give my gecko back. The money isn't the point of my frustration.

 

[DAND]

Burning more bridges...

Well if Chaos was hoping to vend the All Cleveland show again in the future you would think sending Dan's little girlfriend to the show with fliers promoting their new shop while saying their prices were better than anyone vending the show would have been bad idea. That coupled with the post they had on CraigsList (so much for the computer issues yet again) stating the same (sorry it was taken down or flagged before I could get a copy or screen shot of it). Well, it seems that Chaos is bound and determined to have more and more signs displayed about them. The latest was displayed at the show this past weekend:

The Cleveland Reptile show does not endorse or have any affiliation with Chaos Reptiles.

I can't quite figure out Dan's girlfriend either. The last time I brought crickets to their shop she was there (the only one there) and she asked me what their price was for crickets. I told here and she told me that Dan had charged her $14.50 for 500 crickets (that's my selling price for 1,000 at shows). So it appears Dan will rip anyone off. Yet she is still hanging around these two clowns and doing their dirty work they are too cowardly or just too damn lazy to do theirselves. I wonder if they will send her to the Akron show in their place again this time. Well nonetheless I'll be there with my sign no matter who shows up.

I hope the picture she took of my sign on Sunday came out for her.

 

[garweft]

chaos (n.)
1. A condition or place of great disorder or confusion.
2. A disorderly mass; a jumble: The desk was a chaos of papers and unopened letters.
3. often Chaos The disordered state of unformed matter and infinite space supposed in some cosmogonic views to have existed before the ordered universe.
4. Mathematics A dynamical system that has a sensitive dependence on its initial conditions.
5. Obsolete An abyss; a chasm.


At least they got the name right.

 

[bfranz]

Dave-
I am assuming that when you refer to "Dan's girlfriend" that you are referring to me. I find it interesting that the flyers were making their way around the show long before I even showed up there. Maybe this is because it was Brenna that was passing them out at the front door, NOT me.
Next, I am no longer your customer for two reasons:
1. You aren't doing this out of the "goodness of your heart" to warn other people. You are trying to bring down their business, which no, that does not affect me, but it affects my friend and I don't appreciate it.
2. Dan sells me much better crickets for a much better price.
And now that it's established that I am no longer your customer, please do not call me soliciting my business. It would be much appreciated if you lost my number.
As far as me working at the shop for them, it is not for the reasons that you claim. As you know, Dan snow plows in the winter and Josh has gotten another job to help pay the bills. If Dan needed to snow plow and Josh was working at his other job, then I would help them out and work at the shop. I'm sure you will bring up the fact that sometimes I was working there when it wasn't snowing. So before you say anything, I will mention that sometimes Dan was able to find some work on the side to earn a little extra money and I would work at the shop so he could do it.
As far as vending the shows for them, Josh had another job and Dan had the shop. No matter what, someone had to be at the shop. For the Akron show, since it was the first time the show was put on, I wanted to check it out. Since I was already going to be there I told Dan that I would vend it for him.
I would like to go back a post or two and bring up what you said here:
"As I wrote to Dan in my e-mails prior to even posting this thread, pay me what you owe me (yes, that was done), leave me alone and move on (yet to be done). "
You acknowledged that they have paid you. As for leaving you alone, why don't you tell everyone on here the last time they contacted you? They have left you alone. And move on? They've moved on. Everyone on here can see that you haven't.
And also what you said here:
"The only thing that angers me is their continual bad mouthing of me."
We both know that if they were bad mouthing you, I would have heard it. I haven't heard a thing. They don't talk about you. This may come as a shock but their world does not revolve around you and you aren't on their minds 24/7.
By the way, I didn't take a picture of your sign. We all know what it looks like. You weren't shy about posting it here.
It's also obvious that you wait until this thread is on the second or third page before you post again to bump it back up.
The last thing I have to say is you better apologize for dragging me into this. I wasn't the one passing out the flyers and that was a flat out lie. And as far as everything else, I help out a friend who is trying to get this business up and running. There's nothing wrong with that and I can't believe you have the nerve to think it is for any other reason.

James-
You didn't say anything to me about the gecko at the Akron show. I had no idea about the gecko situation, but since there was nothing I could personally do about it I understand that you didn't mention it to me.
From what I understand, Dan was aware that Josh was selling someone a gecko but did not know which gecko or even who was buying it. When you brought the gecko back after noticing that there was something wrong with it, Josh was there. I guess Josh didn't mention this to Dan because it seems like this thread is the first he heard of it. Dan hasn't mentioned anything about receiving an email from you and if you haven't heard back from him, he probably didn't get it. I will PM you his cell phone number and you can get a hold of him any time.

 

[AvandisFifth187]

It's also obvious that you wait until this thread is on the second or third page before you post again to bump it back up.

Did you notice that this thread was dead for a while until James posted a reply. I think he did this only because he decided to check this thread out again and saw something he thought he'd reply to. James, please correct me if I'm wrong. Franz, please do not take this as me talking for James. It is just what it looks like.

When you brought the gecko back after noticing that there was something wrong with it, Josh was there. I guess Josh didn't mention this to Dan because it seems like this thread is the first he heard of it.

I do have to ask this. Dan stated earlier in this thread that he handles the care end while Josh handles the business end. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong. If Josh doesn't know that much about the animals and is still learning, as was sadi earlier in this thread, why wouldn't he bring it up to the person who does know what to do with the animals when James brought it back?

 

[GreenOasis09]

66% Het Cinnamon...ROFLMFAO! I have only owned my ball for about a year and a half, and only really studied up the genetics on them for maybe the last 6 mos or so when I wanted to start breeding my boy, and admittedly, some of the more colorful euphemisms for morphs make my head swim (Silver Streak, 8-Ball? Ugh!), but even at my novice level, I know that there is no such thing as "het Cinny"! Next they'll be selling "het Fires" & "het Pastels"! LOL Maybe 'Chaos' needs to pull their heads out of the clouds and stop living "way up there" and start living down here with the rest of us! $250,000 a year? Not at THIS rate!
Anyway, good thread! Very "Days of Our Lives"! (Better, actually, I *hate* soaps!) It's taken me all of about two hours to read (and then start skimming) all of it, but so worth it!

 

[AvandisFifth187]

$250,000 a year

Thanks for bringing this up... If they really do make that much, as their myspace as I believe it was says, why would they need to take up extra jobs that keep them from the shop?

 

[DAND]

Dave-
I am assuming that when you refer to "Dan's girlfriend" that you are referring to me. I find it interesting that the flyers were making their way around the show long before I even showed up there. Maybe this is because it was Brenna that was passing them out at the front door, NOT me.

I see. I was misinformed. I guessed it was you this month seeing as you were the one soliciting for their shop at the last show (makes sense though, if I had the choice between Brenna or you to pass out flyers Brenna would have been my choice too. Guess Dan didn’t cut her loose after she failed to open the shop for him as he claimed he was going to do). When I saw you stopped in front of my table (strangely enough in front of my sign with your phone out pushing buttons and looking up at my sign and back at your phone I could only guess you were taking a picture) I thought you must have run out of flyers (I could have given you a bunch of them since quite a few people thought it funny to give them to me).

I guess you are back to being errand girl then. I can only guess Dan paid you for the animals you picked up at the January show for him. If you don’t recall you were worried that he was going to come up with some excuse not to have the money and you were worried since you had to borrow the money from your mom. I hope you had enough sense not to take a check.

Next, I am no longer your customer for two reasons:
1. You aren't doing this out of the "goodness of your heart" to warn other people. You are trying to bring down their business, which no, that does not affect me, but it affects my friend and I don't appreciate it.
2. Dan sells me much better crickets for a much better price.
And now that it's established that I am no longer your customer, please do not call me soliciting my business. It would be much appreciated if you lost my number.

1. I do not have to try to bring down their business they are doing a bang up job doing that themselves and do not need any help from me. If I am to believe you and the rest of their bleating sheep, I mean supporters that they have turned things around and are now doing things they way they should have all along I am helping their business. It is unfortunate that it took me starting this thread and bringing it to everyone’s attention for the two of them to turn things around and do things properly. Some people just don’t work well without supervision and sometimes need the extra attention in order for them to do the job right.

2. If you want me or anyone else here to believe you, you may want to start off by telling the truth but with the present company you are keeping (you know when in Rome) it is no wonder you are having difficulties stating the truth. Or were you meaning the quality of their crickets has improved? Have they finally realized that you have to have a food and water source for the crickets? So he isn’t selling you 500 crickets for $14.50 any more? I’m glad to hear it. It was a rather large mark up on his behalf I thought. Well, when your critters are going hungry you’ll only have Dan to blame.


Soliciting huh? My customers seem to rather enjoy having me call to see if they are in need of crickets. Some of which have rather busy schedules and the reminder is appreciated. Some of these very same people were former customers of Chaos. It’s called customer service and is obviously something you are not accustomed to seeing with the current company you are keeping.

Well, seeing as you are no longer my customer then there should be no reason whatsoever for you to be stopping in front of my table not taking pictures. Please refrain from loitering in front of my table in the future.

As far as me working at the shop for them, it is not for the reasons that you claim. As you know, Dan snow plows in the winter and Josh has gotten another job to help pay the bills. If Dan needed to snow plow and Josh was working at his other job, then I would help them out and work at the shop. I'm sure you will bring up the fact that sometimes I was working there when it wasn't snowing. So before you say anything, I will mention that sometimes Dan was able to find some work on the side to earn a little extra money and I would work at the shop so he could do it.

Since you have such issue with the amount of time it takes for me to reply I won’t bother to reply to the above drivel. I just do not have the time to respond in a timely manner when I have to untwist or inform you of what is reality and what is a farce. The smilies I inserted above should give you an idea as to how much posting that would have been.

As far as vending the shows for them, Josh had another job and Dan had the shop. No matter what, someone had to be at the shop. For the Akron show, since it was the first time the show was put on, I wanted to check it out. Since I was already going to be there I told Dan that I would vend it for him.

I see they have implemented a new policy? Certainly it was not what was happening previously. Which one of them took the credit for coming up with that idea?

And I suppose you were planning on checking out the Taylor Michigan show the month when Dan wanted me to bring their mite infested animals up to the show for them and I didn’t? Guess you wanted to check out Columbus too, you remember the last time Chaos was represented at the Columbus show.

I would like to go back a post or two and bring up what you said here:
"As I wrote to Dan in my e-mails prior to even posting this thread, pay me what you owe me (yes, that was done), leave me alone and move on (yet to be done). "
You acknowledged that they have paid you. As for leaving you alone, why don't you tell everyone on here the last time they contacted you? They have left you alone. And move on? They've moved on. Everyone on here can see that you haven't.
And also what you said here:
"The only thing that angers me is their continual bad mouthing of me."
We both know that if they were bad mouthing you, I would have heard it. I haven't heard a thing. They don't talk about you. This may come as a shock but their world does not revolve around you and you aren't on their minds 24/7.
By the way, I didn't take a picture of your sign. We all know what it looks like. You weren't shy about posting it here.
It's also obvious that you wait until this thread is on the second or third page before you post again to bump it back up.

So you spend every waking moment with both Dan and Josh now?

I’m sorry that I am not posting quick enough for your likes but I have been rather busy doing back-to-back shows for the past 3 weekends and have not had an off weekend since the first week in February. That and having to uncup and feed and water all the critters (you see I don’t keep mine cupped up for over a week like I have witnessed done there), place and fill orders for my customers and the fact that my back is screwed up and sitting here to post about these two clowns is a literal pain in the ass. I would also like to say that I do not have a laptop with wireless capabilities like someone else who claimed to have limitations to internet access all the while posting on MySpace. I’ll try and post quicker so as to not keep the three of you guys waiting. Though you may want to take note that on any given day a thread could get pushed to the second page in under 12 hours but with your 1 post and 8 month membership here I’m sure you are well versed with the way things here on Fauna work.

The last thing I have to say is you better apologize for dragging me into this. I wasn't the one passing out the flyers and that was a flat out lie. And as far as everything else, I help out a friend who is trying to get this business up and running. There's nothing wrong with that and I can't believe you have the nerve to think it is for any other reason.

As was I before you were even in the picture. The only difference is you appear to enjoy getting screwed by Dan.

 

[DAND]

Dan has re-joined Fauna (7/7/09) as Chaos Reptiles (previously known as "chaosad") Just in case someone new comes along and can't put two and two together.