Choosing the Type of Euthanasia

[Glenn Bartley]

I recently read/heard of two cases wherein reptile keepers euthanized their animals because of hopeless medical conditions. I have no problem with that, and am not addressing the issue of whether or nor someone should or should not euthanize an animal. My issue is that: both chose to freeze their animals to death!

I almost cannot believe how some people claim to be more humane because they choose to prolong the actual euthanasia process, and therefor the potential suffering of the animal when they choose to euthanize by way of cooling and then freezing an animal to death. (Don't get me wrong I am not always against freezing - for instance when a matter of practicality to kill a large number of animals at once. What I am befuddled by is someone claiming that killing a single pet is more humane or better because tit made the animal suffer less than would have a swift death.) I imagine some believe it is better to take the animal off heat, then put it in a fridge and then into a freezer as a way to make it easier on the animal but; I truly believe this is only an excuse for making it easier on the keeper who does not want to dole out death by his/her own hand and who does not want to see it happen. I believe this method only makes you feel better not the animal as it is out of sight and easier out of mind.

Do people really think it is better for the animal? I would like to hear why anyone believes this method (freezing) is potentially less stressful on the animal than would be an extremely swift death. A swift death is just that, as opposed to one that surely took so much time in which the animal could suffer the effects of the cold and of its being frozen piece by piece. Pain, when a swift death is administered, is likely not felt, or is felt only for a moment, because the animal is dead within a moment. When freezing an animal, it probably does suffer the effects of freezing such as feeling its limbs freeze before the remainder of its body. Yes even in a cold blooded animal the extremities are apt to freeze first because their smaller masses hold heat for a shorter period than would the larger masses of their bodies.

I think a quick death, such as a snapped neck, a crushed head, a pin into the brain, throwing the animal against a hard surface with a strong throw would all have been the much more ethical thing to do! I certainly am open to hear why people prefer freezing, and on what they base their argument.

All the best,
Glenn B

 

[Seamus Haley]

I had to think about this for a few minutes, prior to selecting a response to the Poll. A sort of internal battle between absolute honesty and the impression I would rather give other people... Honesty won, but I feel some explaination needs to be given to justify my position (even though simply answering the poll would have been anonymous).

I chose the final option, although not entirely for the reason listed. When euthanizing an animal... any animal... I choose the method which is most convenient for me. I never go out of my way to be curel of course, nor do I enojoy watching an animal suffer... so the most convenient method will always be legal and in some manner humane. However this does mean that when euthanizing rodents for use as feeders, I won't go to the effort of setting up a CO2 chamber... When euthanizing a fish or herp, I'm not going to pay a vet a few hundred bucks to put it down with a lethal injection and if the time ever comes when I have to euthanize a terrestrial invert, I will likely just step on it.

That being said however... Freezing is not a humane way of euthanizing *some* animals. Humans, in our conceit, tend to classify and categorize everything using our own terms, our own experiences and our own biology. It's why anthropomorphism is so rampant- the majority are truly unable to value something without forcing it into human terms. Freezing is supposedly a painless way for a human being to die... I have never tried it, so this is not firsthand experience but the brain apparantly shuts down physical sensation after a point and a sort of comatose sleep occurs prior to death. There is evidence which strongly suggests this is NOT the case in many other animals (including other mammals) and that consciousness will remain until death sets in... slowly, as the flesh progressively freezes and dies.

I truly love reptiles, amphibians, fish, inverts and even some other mammals- but I do not value them as highly as I value humans. If forced with a choice between the lives of long term pets that I have kept for decades and come to regard as being an intrinsic part of my life or an anonymous stranger, the human wins every time... I say this to explain that I do put a lesser importance on the potential for suffering. I also firmly believe that many animals do not HAVE the same potential for suffering that has been shown to exist in mammals and birds. A reptile has no concept of self awareness, no ability to conceptualize abstracts such as the future... Much of the suffering from a human standpoint comes from worried anticipation, we worry about shutting off the brain, the "self" rather than physical damage. While a reptile certainly has instincts for self preservation and CAN feel pain, evidence strongly suggests (The evidence i choose to believe anyway) that pain is merely used as an indicator of physical damage, which can sometimes trigger an instinctive response if there is a present and obvious cause but otherwise... Well, we're all aware that a herp will sit on a hot rock while it's flesh cauterizes and the burns even go so far as to penetrate the body cavity, which certainly seems to mean something about what the brain of a herp does or does not do with certain sensory information.

So... I have put animals in the freezer in the past as a way to euthanize them... I likely will again in the future if it's the most convenient of avaliable options even though it is never my first choice when presented with a range of choices. Frankly I preffer to break the neck or dislocate the spinal cord when given the option but there are some species where I simply do not know enough about the way the skeleton is structured to make this safe or easy. I know how to snap a rat's neck and the animal is dead before it has a chance to understand what's happening... I can't say the same about most lizards... Certainly enough force could easily be applied to a gecko to make it something of a moot point... Can the same be said for an adult tegu or monitor? Would pulling or twisting be more effective for a snake? Does angling the grip help or should it be a straight movement? If I screw it up and merely paralyze it, is it okay for me to put it into the freezer?

 

[dumje]

Put simply...I believe that freezing puts the animal in a state of hibernation...unconsiousness if you will. The reptile in question will not feel anything...assuming that what I believe is true. Could you prove it is not true?

Freezing is what I have done always and continue to do...when needed.

 

[odatria]

I have always, and will always freeze a reptile to euthanize it.

As has been pointed out, this is not the best choice with other life-forms, such as mammals. In my opinion, there are too many variables in breaking a reptiles neck. For reptiles, having your neck broken is not a natural event. However, cooling the reptile to the point of hibernation and beyond IS a natural event. Much more humane in my opinion.

 

[Glenn Bartley]

However, cooling the reptile to the point of hibernation and beyond IS a natural event.

Beside wood frogs, and a turtle or two, please tell me which if any reptiles or amphibians actually hibernate or are cooled beyond 'hibernation' (by which I assume you mean freezing)? None of which I am aware, but I am open to learn. Even if you are able to name a few, do Boa Constrictors, Burmese Pythons, Sulcatta Tortoises (and the list goes on and on) hibernate? In fact many animals, many herps included, in nature, are never subjected to freezing temperatures at all - so how could freezing them be natural?

Rather most herps from temperate zones, of which I am aware, brumate. Brumation does not mean the animal becomes cool enough to sleep - brumation does not put them to sleep as you seem to be saying. Sure reptiles sleep when brumating, but they also spend a great deal of the day awake. They drink water, they crawl about a bit and so forth. Bears on the other hand do hibernate and actually sleep for prolonged periods during the winter at which time their digestive and renal systems go through a drastic change in functioning to accommodate hibernation.

I wrote this.

I certainly am open to hear why people prefer freezing, and on what they base their argument.

This is one of the replies I received.

Put simply...I believe that freezing puts the animal in a state of hibernation...unconsciousness if you will. The reptile in question will not feel anything...assuming that what I believe is true. Could you prove it is not true?

I was hoping for a more two sided conservation of the issues than an 'I says its this way you says its that way - prove it' kind of a thing. Don't you have anything to back up what you believe, or do you just believe it so it must be true?

I certainly can prove that when my animals brumate they do not become unconscious except when they sleep. The sleep-state is only part of brumation, the animals are awake for quite a bit of the day while brumating. If you want proof of that, I am willing to give a demonstration any time you wish to come to my home in the winter when I am keeping temperate species of herps. Sorry but I will not go for the "if you will part". Temperate species of herps do not become unconscious because they brumate, at least snakes that I have kept do not, nor do the ones I have read about. They are not like bears in hibernation. And yes I can also prove they feel things in brumation.

My snakes regularly drink water while brumating. To find the water they use their senses, especially flicking the tongue to capture particles in the air to be transferred to the Jacboson's organ. If they were unconscious and incapable of feeling as you suggest, would they be able to do such while brumating. I can prove that at very low temps - down to at least the low forties, at least snakes can also use their sense of touch. If the temp at one end of the enclosure gets too cold they seek out the warmer end - which is apparently more to their liking temperature wise. They also regularly respond to touch of the keeper, when the enclosure is opened to add water to their bowl. Yes they do feel at low temps. Of course they may not feel Freezing cold, but they apparently can feel too cold. My Desert Kingsnakes, and others, prefer a temperature in the low fifties Fahrenheit rather than one that is a few degrees higher or lower for their preferred resting place while in brumation. Do they not feel too cold or too hot? If that was never the case then why would a snake ever thermoregulate? Sure some may not move off a heat mat until burned, but maybe that is because they need to feel thoroughly warmed throughout before they move or simply because the heat sensing nerves are not as functional in the ventral surface. This does not mean a snake does not feel cold or warmth. Again, as I just said, if they did not feel cold or heat, what is the mechanism by which they seek to thermoregulate?

Now I throw the ball back to you to prove to me that they do not feel it, nor that they feel freezing as their extremities freeze first. (Yes even snakes must follow the 'laws' of physics, and it is likely that the tip of the tail would retain the least heat and freeze first because it is much thinner than the remainder of the body. The head might freeze next, but the tail would likely do so first.)Furthermore, even if you wish to interchange the words hibernation and brumation, or even if you can show that brumation is technically a form of hibernation - show me where the normal function of hibernation/brumation is to kill an animal. This just is not so, nor is the normal function of brumation to render a herp unconscious or incapable of feeling. For you guys to suggest for a moment that it is natural or painless death for a reptile to be frozen to death, and that a broken neck is not a natural way, or just as painless a way, for a reptile to die, is somewhat puzzling to me! Your argument seems weak.

Snakes, lizards, turtles, salamanders and frogs that brumate do not freeze to death as a normal function of brumation. With rare exception they do not even freeze and remain alive (remarkable creatures the wood frog and I believe some turtles which can be frozen and survive because of special chemicals in their systems) but freezing to death is not the normal course of brumation. Sure animals in nature may freeze to death, but so too do they have their necks or spines broken in nature or their heads crushed, etc. I really am curious to hear more on your beliefs, and would like to hear you out further on this, but first here is something else to consider; it is a bit of a twist for you guys to ponder:

Animals, including herps, in nature also estivate. I am fairly positive that many amphibians (and possibly other herps) do so when the temperatures get too hot or when conditions are too dry. Do you suggest for a moment, I wonder, that a 'humane' manner in which to dispatch such a herp would be to subject it to a slowly ever increasing amount of heat until it becomes unconscious and dies because the torpor caused by estivation is natural? I think this would be using the same logic you give for the freezing type of euthanasia but my guess is that you would not consider this humane. Of course, I could be wrong about what you would consider humane, yet my guess would still be that most others would not consider it humane.

I still don't know if freezing is more humane than snapping a neck or another form of rapid dispatch. However I still wonder what I wondered originally: How is it that people believe freezing - which takes a prolonged period with normally available freezers - is a more humane manner of euthanasia than is a swift death by other means? And please bear in mind, I am not ranting against freezing - I have killed a number of pinkies this way in order to freeze them for later use. I am really mostly wondering why anyone considers it more humane than the other methods mentioned when it comes to herps. While I believe other methods are more ethical or more humane, they are certainly not always more practical; and I also think both are possibly ethical enough - but - I am wondering about it.

All the best,

Glenn B

 

[brianskibinski]

I've never had to do this yet for any of my lizards, so I'm definitely no expert in this area, but I heard about a guy who used CO2 to euthanize rats to feed his snake. He has a small plastic chamber and a system to use the paintball gun CO2 cartridges (or something similar), and a small mechanism to release the CO2. It would seem to me that by doing so, the animal goes into a kind of dizziness and then loses consciousness (Similar to people who die by leaving the garage door closed and the car running). I don't know if this would also apply to reptiles, but it seems like it would be better than freezing them. Again, I'm no expert in reptile nervous systems so take it for what it's worth. I'm curious to see what others think about this method.

Brian Skibinski
Milwaukee Reptiles

 

[snakekid13]

I prefer a swift death myself although you feel terrible at first you think about it and it seems less painful to the herp. I had to put a leopard gecko out of its missery once and so i just euthanized it by hitting it on the head with a hammer while he was in a pillow case. Actually i didnt do it my friend did and this is what he said " wow he was still quite a lively little guy" that sure made me feel better.

 

[Dianne Johnson]

I have only had to put a couple of herps down - one Mediteranian gecko (a feeder) and my grey rat snake. The gecko was put in the freezer and the rat snake was euthanized at the vet's office ($30 for a lethal injection, not terribly expensive in my book). Prior to euthanizing my rat snake, I discussed my options with my reptile vet. I asked him about the freezing method and it was his opinion that for very small herps (such as the gecko or neonate snakes) it was a perfectly viable option. However, he also said that it is now widely believed that larger animals do feel the pain of freezing because it is instinctual for them to coil up and conserve heat...meaning they freeze bit by bit. To me, that isn't humane. I have very strong views about our responsibility to our pets and I believe a humane and painless death is part of that responsibility - cost shouldn't be part of the calculation in my book. Most people thought I was nuts for amount of time & money I was spending on 'just a rat snake' but he deserved the best quality of life I could provide, including treatment for illness and/or injury and a humane death in the event treatment didn't work, which in this case it didn't. The value of an animal shouldn't determine the quality of care it receives.

All that said, I'm not against freezing in the right circumstances - smaller animals that quickly freeze. I regularly dispatch mice by dropping them into a pillow case and hitting them into a hard surface - rarely do I not kill them on the first strike - so I have no problem with other quick humane methods. I DO have a problem if someone decided to euthanize a pet themselves and doesn't really know what will work and botches the job, making a second attempt necessary. To me that is simply unnecessary suffering the animal must go through.

Dianne

 

[Glenn Bartley]

so i just euthanized it by hitting it on the head with a hammer while he was in a pillow case. Actually i didnt do it my friend did and this is what he said " wow he was still quite a lively little guy" that sure made me feel better.

If the blow hit the Leo square on the head, and had any force to it with, lets say, a regular sized nail driving hammer, then the Leo was likely dead immediately on the first blow. Lots of animals move for long periods of time after being killed by traumatic blows. This is due to muscular spasm, nerve impulses and such. I have seen a snake's body still writhing over an hour after someone cut off its head, and I think anyone will readily agree that a snake minus its head is dead. To bad about that one, I would have kept it or at least removed the snake from that person's property.

As for freezing small herps as opposed to large ones, they too, in my opinion, would likely feel the same sensations that a larger one of the same species would feel.

I discussed my options with my reptile vet. I asked him about the freezing method and it was his opinion that for very small herps (such as the gecko or neonate snakes) it was a perfectly viable option. However, he also said that it is now widely believed that larger animals do feel the pain of freezing because it is instinctual for them to coil up and conserve heat...meaning they freeze bit by bit.

While a small snake would freeze faster than a large one that were both the same initial temperature (because a larger body retains heat longer than a small one) I cannot imagine any difference in how each would feel sensations of pain. Nor can I believe that a smaller snake would not freeze bit by bit as would a larger snake - it would just happen faster but certainly not instantaneously throughout the entire body of a small snake in a regular freezer.

I just prefer a quicker method, much quicker, than freezing in cases of dispatching a single animal. While I have mentioned ethics before, I am not too worried that either method is unethical, just that one would likely be somewhat quicker and less painful, in my opinion. Of course matters of simple practicality may push my choice to freezing in some cases, such as when dispatching a large number of animals at one time; and here is a good point to address the CO2 issue.

He has a small plastic chamber and a system to use the paintball gun CO2 cartridges (or something similar), and a small mechanism to release the CO2. It would seem to me that by doing so, the animal goes into a kind of dizziness and then loses consciousness (Similar to people who die by leaving the garage door closed and the car running).

I know little of the workings of this method regarding physical effects on the body such as pain, but have heard of its use many times. I wonder if it is painless or not. While people and reptiles do not have the same sensations of pain, nor do they feel pain because of the same causes, it may be of interest to search out what people who have had close calls with CO2 have to say about their experiences.

While CO2 asphyxiation may be somewhat similar to death by CO (carbon monoxide) poisoning, you must bear in mind that you probably should never kill a food item with CO. I only point this out because you said they were similar, and someone may think they are all too similar and try it. I believe you never should use animals killed by CO as food items because, if I recall correctly, CO kills by actually poisoning the afflicted animal (or by being toxic - I am not being very technical here and I don't know if there is a difference between poison and toxicity). CO poisoning can easily kill humans, so there is also a potential for personal human poisoning too while using it. CO2 on the other hand kills by suffocation due to lack of oxygen as it displaces oxygen in the air. Too much CO2 and too little oxygen causes you to suffocate. CO2, I think, is not a poison. CO being a poison or toxin theoretically may be able to adversely affect an animal that ingests it in sufficient amounts when that animal ingests another animal that died from CO2 toxicity.

I think the one thing about not many people using CO2 to dispatch animals, is that the method is basically the same as is used in a gas chamber. I think many people find that quite repulsive because they associate thoughts of gas chambers with the genocide of Nazi Germany. It just creeps people out. Another reason people may not use CO2 to dispatch animals is that this method could be dangerous to humans. Of course that would probably require a large amount of CO2, probably more than would be used to kill some mice in an improvised gas chamber. (CO on the other hand may or may not require as much exposure, and I sure don't want to find out by experimentation on myself.)

On the other hand CO2 may be a great way to dispatch a large number of animals at one time, possibly more ethical, or at least less traumatic to the animals, than freezing; and better than killing a bunch of rats or mice in the freezer along with my next steak.

I may have to try the pillow case thing with mice and rats in the future. I usually throw them to the floor with a hard fast swing and that does it. The thing is that both the mice and rats pick up dirt that way. The rats often spray blood too. I hope there is never any type of forensic examination of my basement. If they ever spray Luminol, they will find lots of blood splatter but all rodent, and maybe a bit of mine from a snake bite or two (LOL). It would all be neater in a pillow case.

All the best,
GB

 

[Dianne Johnson]

I may have to try the pillow case thing with mice and rats in the future. I usually throw them to the floor with a hard fast swing and that does it. The thing is that both the mice and rats pick up dirt that way. The rats often spray blood too. I hope there is never any type of forensic examination of my basement. If they ever spray Luminol, they will find lots of blood splatter but all rodent, and maybe a bit of mine from a snake bite or two (LOL). It would all be neater in a pillow case.

The pillow case thing is neater and pretty much the same as the hard fast pitch into the floor - it keeps the rodents clean and the occassional blood splatter in contained in the pillow case. I will advise that you be sure the pillow case seams are sewn well - I have inadvertantly shot a rat across the room after impact due to a weak spot in the seam. Since I kill mice in my living room, I don't even want to imagine what a forensic examiner would think! LOL

Dianne

 

[DraEagWol]

CO2

I found this article about using CO2 for euthanasia very informative...

http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/index.html

Also after reviewing more articles, it is interesting to note that in most "research" facilities, the use of "freezing" is not listed as a method of euthanising their animals. Here is a link to an example of one research universities standard operating procedus.

http://www.asrc.agri.missouri.edu/sops/Unit~B/B-EUTHAN.pdf

Now my own opinion, since I grew up on a farm in the heartland, we had to put down many animals, for birds; decapatation was used or gun shot, for the larger animals, a quick hammer blow to the brain did the trick, or in some cases, we used a 22 calibur bullet. Rodents, and other small critters, a quick blow or usually a clean break of the neck would work.

Rarely, but I have used the "freezer" method on occasion to euthanasize a critter. I do think the best method is the use of CO2 as outlined in the link. It is a very easy, effective and the most humane way that I know.

I know they are not human.... but nonetheless.... do onto others as you would have them do onto you... seems rather fitting.

So, using an anasthetic such as CO2 for cessation of pain, then cessation of conscious followed by death is the way to go for me.


Jeff

 

[Darin Chappell]

As a minor point, nothing in that list of accepted forms of euthanasia mentions anything about reptiles in general, or snakes in particular. Further, for those lists of animals where CO2 and other forms were described, reptiles were absent from the lists of life forms that were acceptable candidates for those forms.

Now, it may simply be that herps are not common enough lab subjects to have been covered, and they would have been included, if they were. However, that list does not say that, so it seems inaccurate to suggest that the list cited has anything substantive to add to the discussion here.

I found it interesting that one zoological research site in Great Britain had the following to say in its guidelines for reptile euthanasia:

"Confirming death:
Death (loss of brainstem activity) is difficult to confirm in reptiles. Suggested criteria to evaluate include:
· Lack of external reflexes (Righting, Limb withdrawals, Cornea-third eyelid response)
· Lack of detectable respiratory activity (no spontaneous breathing movements, Larynx open, flaccid and unresponsive to touch)
· Lack of detectable cardiovascular activity (Doppler ultrasound, ultrasound, ECG)

Reptiles which are heavily anaesthetised, severely ill or even just very cold will have few, if any, outward signs of activity; and appear dead by the criteria above but may regain consciousness (e.g. after metabolising anaesthetics or warming)" http://www.bvzs.org/euthansiaguidelinesreptiles.htm

Now, I have no real issue about freezing an animal or not. I have never had to euthanize a large snake, and freezing of smaller snakes (deformed hatchlings and such) has only rarely been an issue. If hitting a snake in the head with a hammer is more humane, that's fine with me. However, that referrence cited above clearly states that overly cold snakes that are warmed "may regain consciousness" ... How do you accomplish that without first having been UN-conscious? And, if the snake that is cooled sufficiently is unconscious, how can it not be humane to then freeze the anesthetized animal?

Just a thought ...

 

[DraEagWol]

Reptile Euthanasia

Ok, so I generalized, "animals" to include reptiles. Yes I will admit that it is much harder to diagnose death with a reptile due to lack of "apparent" visual cues. None the less, I believe using CO2 method, and with the suggestion that after 30 min. using freezing to ensure death... would be humane.

here are a few more links more specific to reptile euthanasia types from Melissa Kaplan.

http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

http://www.anapsid.org/co2.html

http://www.anapsid.org/decap.html

jeff

 

[Darin Chappell]

Jeff, I wasn't attacking you, so please do not misunderstand what I was saying there. I was just pointing out that even the experts don't have much to say about reptile euthanasia, because, as it appears to me, they would like to think that reptiles are self-aware as are "higher" orders of life, but they have no evidence of this being the case.

As for Ms. Kaplan, her I do attack as an anti-pet animal rights activist disguised as a herper. Her care sheets are full of inaccurate "information," so I cannot count her sheets on euthanasia as being any more reliable.

Again, I really don't "have a dog in this fight." I just think it's interesting how proclamations are made by the "experts" without specifics cited as evidence in most of these pieces of information.

 

[Seamus Haley]

This is drifting back towards my argument made on page one so I think I'll chime in a bit once more...

As I said, I have frozen reptiles in the past and likely will again in the future should occassion arise when I feel it's appropriate. I do so because it's the quickest method for many which I am certain will cause death- as I said, I have no idea how to best go about disloacting the spinal column from the brain for most species and wouldn't care to attempt it in that the idea of euthanization is to end suffering or cull and it's not something I find myself doing frequently enough to find it worth practicing.

I also noted that evidence strongly suggests that consciousness remains during the freezing process up to a point for herps but that brings up a really big question... What exactly is consciousness? As Darin noted it can be very difficult to determine if a reptile is even ALIVE given certain standards at certain points (c'mon now, for all of you who have dealt with large numbers in a resale/import situation, how many of you have had to poke something to see if it was alive? I know I have and I'd like to think I've got a better grasp than most) but further it leads to questions about how we define pain.

This is going to be a lot of conjecture on my part, it's an opinion and a really poorly formed hypothesis and all my evidence is pretty circumstantial, if you want to debate it, please feel free but bear in mind that I'm not going to be married to the following statements and might just stop arguing because it no longer interests me to continue...

I submit that pain is merely sensory information, what any given organism DOES with pain is more important than the condition of pain existing. For organisms which can be said to be sentient (if not always very bright) and have self awareness, there is an emotion associated with the physical sensation, that is SELF which is being damaged, it's frightening, it raises doubt about the future it's a major issue... For organisms which are not self aware, it's pure sensory imput with no more meaning than visual stimulus or scent. It *might* trigger a behavioral response if a cause is immediate and the survival instincts have developed one. Meaning if a response to the sensory information was appropriate and animals which developed it ended up forming a larger part of the breeding population, in example, something bites a reptile, escape is a successful response, animals which escaped survived, the instinctive response grew stronger and more dominant within the population. For situations outside such immediate sensory information or where no instinctive response could be developed, the pain is meaningless. As an example... most reptiles equate heat with light intensity to some degree (some don't of course) and will thermoregulate based on light intensity rather than temperature, such as a bearded dragon basking under a flourescent light, even though an area with heat tape under it in the dark is warmer... Given a removal of the associated conditions (light) a diurnal species will burn itself to the point of death on a hotrock or malfunctioning chunk of flexxwatt and not express ANY noticeable response to the sensory information (when the gut is cauterizing, I think it's safe to assume it causes pain). There is nothing in the behavioral pattern which can identify the proper response to end the sensory information so the animal cooks.

I'd place freezing to death in a similar category, it may cause pain, but given a basic premise of non-self awareness (another debate if it's a point of contention) and no instinctive response towards the pain information, it's meaningless pain because it doesn't cause any distress. Yes, this means I'm arguing that it's okay to cause pain IF it can be reasonabaly believed that the pain is not understood. I think I explained what I meant fairly well, but if there's someone who wants clarification, I'll certainly try to explain it better if it'll cut down on the hate mail.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Oh yeah... One more thing...

Kaplan is an anti-pet trade activist, she wants to see animal captivity and use stopped completely. She's proved this many times over, including on this site (she IS registered and posted once), a subject like animal euthanasia is exactly the sort of thing she likes to twist and use to misinform in a manner which encourages her political views.

While I understand that some people may not yet know her for what she is, I gotta say she has no place whatsoever in any rational intelligent discussion of the subject.

 

[DraEagWol]

I did not know that...

thank you for your information / opinion.

oh and no worries... i rarely if ever take offense! LOL

 

[gr8fr0g]

I don’t think I could ever bring myself to euthanize a beloved pet by slamming it against a wall or the floor, or snapping its neck with my hands. I don’t think I would be able to live with myself. My personal feeling is that I have taken on the responsibility of caring and loving this pet and in its final time of need I would want it to be as painless as possible. Therefore I would opt to take my pet into the vet and have it euthanized by them. I know I would prefer to be put down by a lethal injection than suffer by being frozen or beaten in the head with a hammer.

The only way I could accept freezing to be a humane form of euthanasia is if the animal was anesthetized first then the entire animal immersed in liquid nitrogen for rapid freezing. This method instantaneously inactivates enzymes in the brain. When put into a refrigerator freezer the reptile starts to freeze way too slow. As the reptile starts to hit low temperatures they go into a state or torpor then ice crystals start to form in the tissue internally and externally which is quite painful. Refrigerator freezers should not be used because they freeze way too slow and are in no way considered to be humane.

Maybe I would feel differently about my answer if I was raising mass quantities of mice to be used as feeders but I will probably never know.

 

[firebrat75]

I just read through this whole thread, and I wanted to add my 2 cents and some food for thought. I want to say that I am in no way an expert on any of this, most of it is my opinion. So I invite anyone to correct me if I am wrong in anything that I say. I am always open to learning.

To touch on a few things, if I remember correctly, the difference between CO poisoning and breathing CO2 is that CO binds to the red bloodcells and does not release. This is why CO can build up in time in a persons system. CO2 however just places the O2 in the air... so basically it comes down to as an animal receives less and less oxygen, it will slowly pass out, and if no oxygen is administered at some point, will die from asphyxiation (sp?)... So from both CO poisoning, and say a CO2 chamber, the effects may look the same, but achieved in a different ways.

Now as far as freezing a creature for euthanasia, I have done it, that was also before I was told a few things about it from a friend that is a vet assistant. The problem with using a home freezer is that the level of cold is not fast enough to cease brain activity before the body actually freezes, so it may happen the the animal will actually feel its limbs crystalizing before the brain "goes to sleep".... now I would be more comfortable with it, as someone else has mentioned, if there was some sort of anastetic done first.
And a topic that may be cause for a new thread, is reptiles and feeling... pain, fear, anxiety, are all learned feelings in my opinion. I agree with what Seamus Haley said that pain is sensory information. The feeling pain is the taught response to that type of information. Examples for me are how some people can get piercings and they don't hurt, and the next person can get the same thing done and it hurt worse than anything they have felt before. I believe that reptiles behaviour is much more instinctual than say mammals... reason being... the mother lays the eggs and leaves them.. ( I know that this does not go for all reptiles, I have only had personal experience with geckos at this time ).. so they come out of the eggs with "preprogramed" behavioural patterns... they don't have mom and/or dad to learn from... making it possible that through the years of herp evolution, pain may not have been learned. So in this case why would a reptile take what we conceive as a painful situation, and have the same reaction... couple that with the assosiation of heat with light and it makes sense to me why a bearded dragon or a ball python among the others can climb up on a heat rock and burn themselves. They do not understand what is happening, so as someone else mentioned, there is no reason for them to move.

Jason

 

[TooManyBurmese]

On my end of the stick, I have had to put down a lot of snakes. I used to do the freezer method, but now the freezer if full of rabbits, so doing this with a 11ft snake, no matter how emaciated it is, just isn't possible.

I now take them to a vet's office. Thirty dollars is not what I am charged here on the PA/NJ border. I am charged $85 to walk in the door and $45 for the injection.

Since I wholeheartedly agree with Seamus on this, I don't have to bore you with a repeat of his post, although it would be less articulate.

More food for thought, when I had my dog put to sleep he was given two injections. One was a "pain killer". When they gave this to the dog, he slumped down and fell unconscious. The second injection stopped his heart. When I have snakes put to sleep, they are not give two injections...