Collecting 'special' critters

[Lucille]

Occasionally but regularly, we have ads like this in our classifieds: Wanted] "special snakes" blind, no eyes, one eyed, kinks, etc

Because I respect our board and want to make Nick's job easier, I stifled the urge to comment there in the classifieds (and I hope you will stifle too)
But these ads are from people who are good hearted but have not thought the subject through deeply enough, IMHO.

There are all sorts of ways a collection can get sold to the public without an owner's consent. An IRS or bankruptcy seizure. Or, if you die, the snakes become part of your estate. They'll be sold off, maybe for only a few dollars, but will enter the stream of commerce where someone less scrupulous might breed them.

If you have a clutch, let's say of lizards, and there is this one slightly smaller looking baby, I can't fault you if you stick it in a cage and make it your pet.

But I would not feel the same way if you deliberately collected a huge bunch of severely handicapped critters, because of the above reasoning, that at some time, you may unintentionally lose control of your collection.

And, (I am NOT claiming this, for this ad) there may be some who advertise for such critters and then flip them for profit as novelties. I still remember some banner ad advertising eyeless turtles.

 

[DAND]

I'm sure there are people looking for lower end or special animals just to flip (I have seen such people at shows with a table full of scraps as I call it) them but there are some people who actually take in such animals to make sure they don't get culled. I have a friend who takes in special needs animals for just that reason. Personally I think the ones who are flipping them are just bottom feeders and should just move on.

Same goes for the breeders who sell their special needs animals. I was at a show and a vendor was selling "special" high end boas to idiots. When these idiots are damn near wetting themselves because they got (in their mind) this great deal. You know damn well these idiots will be breeding them and in turn selling even more screwed up animals. It's all about $$$$ and to hell with the animals, which is screwed up as far as I'm concerned. If you breed something that is not right then you should either keep it as a pet, sell or give it to someone (and know that this person will not be breeding it) to keep it as a pet, or cull it. It's called being responsible, which it seems that there are very few who care enough to be.

 

[mikeyt]

I agree with Dave that breeders and all idividuals in this industry need to be reponsible in many ways including the disposal (per say) of their flawed animals.

While I have no problem with someone wanting to take on the responsibility of such animals, I also have a concern as to whether or not they would be later used for any kind of breeding purposes or re-sold under other circumstances.

Dave, as we all know, the market has changed over the years, and so has the mentality of the general herp keeping population. Now granted, their are still a number of reputable and responsible breeders and keepers out there that make us good guys stick around and continue to strive and push forward to keep this industry around for years to come.

But at the same time you have the so called bottom feeders that stick around for the almighty quick buck and have no real concerns about the animals they are selling or the people they are selling them to. People in general just dont have good common sense or business sense anymore to make reasonable descisions.

 

[PyBoa1964]

With all that has been said in all of the above post

 

[timebider]

I'm familiar with the name of the person whose ad Lucille remarked upon and - while I'm not POSITIVE - I think this is the same person who occasionally advertises on the Washington, D.C. Craigslist (a) offering to take any unwanted reptiles as part of her reptile "rescue" and (b) actually asking for unwanted reptiles. Whether this person is the same one or not, I think we all know what these kinds of ads can potentially mean.

As an aside: when I checked CL just now to see if she currently has an ad running (she doesn't), I did see a flippant ad from some other moron who left a large live rat in with his "bull" python. The ad was for the offer of a free feeder rodent and/or snake cage because he discovered the snake dead the next morning, and the rat still very much alive. After typing my reply (a primer on responsible "ball" python feeding), my two captcha words were "shoddy" and "fool." HA!

 

[SamanthaJane13]

I'm sure there are people looking for lower end or special animals just to flip (I have seen such people at shows with a table full of scraps as I call it) them but there are some people who actually take in such animals to make sure they don't get culled. I have a friend who takes in special needs animals for just that reason. Personally I think the ones who are flipping them are just bottom feeders and should just move on.

Same goes for the breeders who sell their special needs animals. I was at a show and a vendor was selling "special" high end boas to idiots. When these idiots are damn near wetting themselves because they got (in their mind) this great deal. You know damn well these idiots will be breeding them and in turn selling even more screwed up animals. It's all about $$$$ and to hell with the animals, which is screwed up as far as I'm concerned. If you breed something that is not right then you should either keep it as a pet, sell or give it to someone (and know that this person will not be breeding it) to keep it as a pet, or cull it. It's called being responsible, which it seems that there are very few who care enough to be.

I adopted a handicapped crestie-advanced congenital MBD-and purchased another two years ago that was due to be sent to be euthanized-his paw was crushed in a cage hinge at the pet shop-to keep him alive. He has no other deformities other than his "flipper", is healthy, and the sweetest little guy you could ever imagine, and he's a new breeder this year for us.

Had his missing paw been due to a genetic flaw, he would have been our non-breeding pet.

I don't go out of my way to find "special" geckos, but if I see one, and feel I can improve it's life, I snatch them up and give them a Forever Home as a non-breeding cherished family pet.

I won't get to the point where they out-number my breeders or make it difficult to care for my zoo, but when I have the room, time, and energy, I'll do what I can for the ones I find.

As far as breeding goes, occasionally, an odd-ball may creep into the mix, but if/when that happens, I'll stop breeding that pair and keep the odd-ball as a pet.

 

[Helenthereef]

I agree with points made, but would like to take it one step further - I always shudder when I see "Siamese twins", "2 headed" animals, & other genetic or developmental abberations advertised.

As Lucille has, I have refrained from commenting in the ads, and I realise that these are regarded as special, more valuable, animals by some people, but to me they are unfortunate accidents, and IF they survive, the prospect of their quality of life is questionable, especially if they are changing hands as though they were rare stamps, not living animals.

 

[chamgirl99471]

I agree with points made, but would like to take it one step further - I always shudder when I see "Siamese twins", "2 headed" animals, & other genetic or developmental abberations advertised.

As Lucille has, I have refrained from commenting in the ads, and I realise that these are regarded as special, more valuable, animals by some people, but to me they are unfortunate accidents, and IF they survive, the prospect of their quality of life is questionable, especially if they are changing hands as though they were rare stamps, not living animals.

I do agree with what everyone has stated and I must add to this post. I will take in unwanted/special needs animals but I also do educational programs and sometimes these odd-balls are the best for handling. I always explain to the people attending that the animals are special needs animals and will never breed in my house! They are kept strictly as pets and for education!! I Love My Retarded Turtle that sometimes floats on his back but he eats and is thriving.. he's just weird.. I think someone dropped him and gave him a concusion at one point in time and it's done something to his equilibrium but as long as he's eating and growing he'll stay forever with me

 

[timebider]

Well, I am going to publicly eat crow now. I should not have posted my suspicions that the woman who listed the ad in question here was possibly the same as the Steph on my local CL (who has been exposed as a hoarder posing as a rescue), without absolutely knowing for sure that they were the same person. They are NOT, and I hope the nice woman who posted her ad here on Fauna can forgive me for publicly airing those suspicions when they were obviously incorrect.

I am honestly "on the fence" about culling animals that have minor defects, but that aren't suffering. I tend to think that if a person is able to care for that animal responsibly, more power to them. Should they find at some point that they can no longer keep the animal, they can always cull it then or else give it to a well-respected member of the reptile community for continued care or culling. That, to my mind, would be the best and most responsible way to ensure that the animal is never bred. And, it had not occurred to me that the animal could be used for education purposes; that's potentially a good thing too.

I myself own a "retarded" spider; he has the merest tremor of a wobble, only noticeable when he's excited to eat, but I also joke that he's a "dumb blonde" since his overall temperament and behavior is different from my other balls. Example: I've been bitten by balls and other snakes that thought my hand was food; it's always a quick grab and release when they realize I am not a rodent. Not him! He grabbed my thumb once, wrapped his entire body around my hand, and constricted for all he was worth (he'd eaten the previous day and I was just changing his water). I finally had to unwrap him because he was not going to let go on his own (I wanted him to, because I was afraid he'd go off food if the "prey" overpowered him - and he did, too, for a couple weeks). As spider balls go, he's on the very mild end of the spectrum, but still not an animal I'd personally breed. But he's fine as a (goofy) pet.

My 2 cents, for whatever that's worth - and sincerest apologies again for jumping the gun.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

Same goes for the breeders who sell their special needs animals. I was at a show and a vendor was selling "special" high end boas to idiots. When these idiots are damn near wetting themselves because they got (in their mind) this great deal. You know damn well these idiots will be breeding them and in turn selling even more screwed up animals. It's all about $$$$ and to hell with the animals, which is screwed up as far as I'm concerned.

100%

I shudder when I see people selling their 'special' needs animals (animals with missing eyes, deformed jaws, etc) at a discount... I know some people who do this and they tell me they always make sure the home is a pet-only home, but how do you really know? Especially when you are selling them over the internet? I personally wouldn't take that chance and I would cull the babies that had defects. It just seems to me the responsible thing to do, as a breeder. I totally understand the people that also feel these animals should continue to live if they can in a reasonable manner, I am just not in that camp.. but I understand it. Too many people are out looking for that 'too good to be true' deal and will buy the lower quality (deformed, defective, 'special', whatever you want to call it) animals just to breed because 'hey, not all the babies will show the defect'. That just boils my blood.

I do have one special needs snake, it's a sunglow boa that lost one of it's eyes shortly after birth. The breeder is a local friend of mine and a real soft heart, he didn't want to cull her. He gave her to me because he knew he could trust me to never breed her (I have a few older boas that are pet-only, retired breeders and such). She was on display at my ex's skate shop for a short time and of course a kid comes in and offers to buy her because 'you could make a lot if you breed her'... needless to say, I took her out of the shop the next day (didn't want that kid to come back and try to steal her). She's a great snake, absolutely beautiful and very personable, but if she had been born in one of my litters, she would have been culled.

just my $0.02, I think this is a good subject.

 

[TailsWithScales]

I fully agree with what everyone is saying. I have culled 'special needs' animals but have also taken in dozens more especially monitor lizards.

I'm such a softy these days that if I were to end up with another animal with special needs I'd make every attempt to find it a home with someone who's trust worthy before putting it down if I wasn't going to keep it. I just don't feel that something should be immediately destroyed because I don't want to take the time to find it a home. If a home is not located that's trustworthy then yes the heartbreaking decision would have to be made.

Granted life threatening diseases is another issue and yes the animal would go to forever sleep immediately.

But even a 'special needs' animal deserves the best chance.

 

[Melinda]

I posted recently for a "special needs albino boa". I wanted an albino boa for a pet and thought if someone had a good tempered but flawed one that they did not want to put down, then I would give it a home.

Where do we draw the line on what "special" is? we all know that spiders have a good possibility of wobble, but we breed em and sell em anyway. If we know that the baby spider we sold has a good possibility of producing wobblers, wouldn't that put all spiders in the "special" category?

Same question goes for any of the known issues with breeding balls. I.E. kinks in caramels etc...

 

[Helenthereef]

This "Where to draw the line" question is the crux if all this I think, and you're never going to get everyone thinking alike on it.

In particular, when breeding for special morphs, what you are doing is specifically in-breeding and reducing genetic variation, which is always prone to throwing up harmful mutations such as wobbling and eye problems. There's an on-going thread in the BOI at the moment about wobbling in a Ball Python, and a side issue has been raised as to whether such an animal should be bred from or not.

My own line is drawn at physiological imbalance that affects quality of life - I, personally, would not breed a strain of animal that had a frequently associated impairment such as wobbling. I'd rather have a healthy "mutt' and see that strain bred out of the species. Obviously breeders of morphs and albinos won't agree with that at all.

It's personal ethics, and unfortunately we can see that there are people in the hobby who don't seems to have many. Thankfully there are also many people who have very high standards, and wouldn't keep a suffering animal just because it was a pretty colour.

 

[Southern Wolf]

I'm sure there are people looking for lower end or special animals just to flip (I have seen such people at shows with a table full of scraps as I call it) them but there are some people who actually take in such animals to make sure they don't get culled. I have a friend who takes in special needs animals for just that reason. Personally I think the ones who are flipping them are just bottom feeders and should just move on.

Same goes for the breeders who sell their special needs animals. I was at a show and a vendor was selling "special" high end boas to idiots. When these idiots are damn near wetting themselves because they got (in their mind) this great deal. You know damn well these idiots will be breeding them and in turn selling even more screwed up animals. It's all about $$$$ and to hell with the animals, which is screwed up as far as I'm concerned. If you breed something that is not right then you should either keep it as a pet, sell or give it to someone (and know that this person will not be breeding it) to keep it as a pet, or cull it. It's called being responsible, which it seems that there are very few who care enough to be.

Dave... how can I put this.

I have kingsnakes in my collection for a reason. They're purdy

 

[Sirengarg]

IMO, if the animal is not suffering, then keeping a "defective" herp (or any animal for that matter) isn't going to hurt the animal, but NO breeding should happen.

Unfortunately, there are those who will. Hell, a large percentage of dog breeds came about because of DEFECTS, and IMO, this is wrong. I mean, I love pugs and English Bulldogs, but more care should be taken not to make their faces so freaking pushed in till their eyes bug out or for their legs not to be so short that their knees and ankles are but an inch away.

Sadly, just as backyard breeders purposefully make extra defective dogs, I wouldn't be surprised if some herp breeder started breeding defective herps and calling it some new breed of herp.

A lot of care needs to be taken and many considerations before selling or purchasing one of these animals. If I came upon a 3 legged bearded dragon, I might just purchase it (so long as I wasn't gonna be taken for a ride) and I would keep it alone, never to breed and give it a good life. If I bred my herps and a defective one came out, so long as it was not a defect that would take away quality of life, I would KEEP it, never to sell or give it away, for fear some moron would breed it or sell it to someone who would.

I don't think we should just kill every defective animal. I am NOT judging someone who does, because special needs animals, especially breeders who may have many healthy, perfect animals to care for, could certainly euthanize it. But if the animal can behave naturally and eat on its own, I am for letting them live, never to breed.

 

[Southern Wolf]

but who is to say they never get bred once they leave your hands. That is what I have to think about as a breeder.

Do I let kinked animals out the door.... or just make sure there is no way for them to pass on those defective genes. I know it sounds bad..... but really that is a choice I have to face every year. Sure... I could adopt them out..... but who is to say they will never enter the gene pool once they leave here.

 

[Sirengarg]

but who is to say they never get bred once they leave your hands. That is what I have to think about as a breeder.

Do I let kinked animals out the door.... or just make sure there is no way for them to pass on those defective genes. I know it sounds bad..... but really that is a choice I have to face every year. Sure... I could adopt them out..... but who is to say they will never enter the gene pool once they leave here.

I absolutely agree and don't fault any breeder for euthanizing such animals. But if it were me, I'd just keep it. If I adopted it to anyone, it would only be to someone I knew extremely well and trusted just as much, such as some family members or very close friends who are educated herp owners, not looking to breed at all. But I would never just sell or give it away to anyone.

I currently own a male beardie with MBD, I am his 3rd (and final) home. He won't be be bred, ever. According to his previous owner, he never bred him and as far as he knows, the person before never did. I can't say for sure I know for a fact he wasn't, but I know so long as he lives, he won't ever breed. My pets have forever homes here.

 

[deborahbroadus]

As a breeder I'll certainly try to do whats best for my business, and the community and IMO, once we become breeders we can no longer afford to focus on those animals that shouldn't be sold..so I take note of the names of those tolling for FREE animals so that I NEVER purchase from them if they start having babies for sale.

 

[chamgirl99471]

If I have a defective animal.. I would either keep it or donate it to my local zoo... she has educational displays in her Nature Center and those animals are NOT Bred.. they are there until the day they pass away! If she didn't have room and the animal was not suffering.. I would more then likely keep it or donate to a school in my area for a science class. In other words.. I would not adopt an animal such as that out to the general public because there is NO way of knowing when it leaves your hands whether someone will take advantage and end up breeding it because it's there! Just my opinion but that's the way I feel... If the health was compromised or the animal was suffering.. I would then cull it.

 

[Sirengarg]

As a breeder I'll certainly try to do whats best for my business, and the community and IMO, once we become breeders we can no longer afford to focus on those animals that shouldn't be sold..so I take note of the names of those tolling for FREE animals so that I NEVER purchase from them if they start having babies for sale.

If I have a defective animal.. I would either keep it or donate it to my local zoo... she has educational displays in her Nature Center and those animals are NOT Bred.. they are there until the day they pass away! If she didn't have room and the animal was not suffering.. I would more then likely keep it or donate to a school in my area for a science class. In other words.. I would not adopt an animal such as that out to the general public because there is NO way of knowing when it leaves your hands whether someone will take advantage and end up breeding it because it's there! Just my opinion but that's the way I feel... If the health was compromised or the animal was suffering.. I would then cull it.