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Bad Guy Color By Number Critters - Sam Hacker

C

ColdBloodDynasty

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Hello all,

I have ordered many reptiles and never had a bad experience until this one. This was my first time buying from Sam Hacker from Color by Number Critters.

I ordered a male box turtle from him off of Kingsnake.com since I needed one for my "natives" presentation (I do educational shows for the public).

The email communication went as follows:

On Sep 3, 2013, at 6:34 AM, [email protected] wrote:

*************
NOTE: This message was sent to you via the Kingsnake.com Classifieds.
It appears to be from [email protected]. To respond to this email please just click REPLY.
If you feel this message is fraudulent or abusive please forward it to [email protected].
NOTE: DO NOT flag this message as SPAM/JUNK as your ability to receive legitimate messages from Kingsnake.com Classifieds may be compromised
*************

I am very interested in purchasing your white throated Eastern box male. Please let me know if he is still available. I would like to ship out this week.

Thanks!
Gina

Sam Hacker <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 3, 2013 11:59 AM

Gina, he is still available. What is your zip and I can calculate shipping.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
Colorbynumbercritters.webs.com

On Sep 3, 2013, at 9:02 AM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

20878

Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 3, 2013, 1:05 PM

Shipping is 45$. My pay pal is my email: [email protected]. $220. I will let you know when I receive and then we will work out the shipping details.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
Colorbynumbercritters.webs.com

On Sep 3, 2013, at 11:03 AM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

What is your zip? I want to see if I can find cheaper shipping.

Sent from my iPhone

Sam Hacker <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 3, 2013 2:23 PM

97217, let me know what you find.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
Colorbynumbercritters.webs.com

On Sep 3, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

Okay, let's go with your shipping. Can't find anything cheaper. I will get my funds together and shoot you a PayPal today. Could we ship tomorrow for Thursday delivery?

Sent from my iPhone

Sam Hacker <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 3, 2013 3:42 PM

Thursday or Friday delivery, I will keep you informed. I will let you know when I receive funds. I took him off KS for you.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
Colorbynumbercritters.webs.com

On Sep 3, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

I'm sorry, I hate to do this, but we just found one locally that we won't have to ship.

Thank you for your time.

Gina

Sent from my iPhone

Sam Hacker <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 3, 2013 5:25 PM

Perfect. If you like my guy better I would be willing to eat most of the shipping, remember you will have this guy till you die most likely, so a few dollars for exactly what you want is well worth. Please let me know so I can either arrange shipping or place him back up on KS.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
Colorbynumbercritters.webs.com

Sam Hacker <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 3, 2013 5:35 PM

Also, this guy is a long term captive. You get all the help, questions, comments, concerns... Answered for ever. If the other is fresh out of the wild there could be problems with health and legality of obtaining and keeping.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
Colorbynumbercritters.webs.com

On Sep 3, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

We do have full permitting to own and the one we would be obtaining is also a LTC. However, we do educational shows and this turtle we would be borrowing and not owning. We are looking for one to own. How much of the shipping can you cover? We have a 6 foot long indoor pen and are very advanced, knowledgeable keepers. We are looking for a turtle to own instead of grabbing our friend's for every show.

Could you send me the pics you had on KS so I can show my husband?

Sent from my iPhone

Sam Hacker <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 3, 2013 6:52 PM

I am away from my computer, I can post the add again. Would you be fine with me covering 1/2 of the shipping?

Thanks
Sam Hacker
Colorbynumbercritters.webs.com

On Sep 3, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

Could we settle at $195? That is just over half.

Sent from my iPhone

Sam Hacker <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 3, 2013 7:21 PM

Perfect.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
Colorbynumbercritters.webs.com

On Sep 3, 2013, at 7:25 PM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

PayPal sent. In order to keep our permitting legal we need as much information as you have on locale and collection date (since they are native around here).

Shipping out for Thursday delivery works better for us since no one will be home Friday until the afternoon.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 3, 2013, at 7:37 PM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

My shipping address is [removed].

Phone number is [removed].

Sent from my iPhone

Sam Hacker <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 3, 2013 8:14 PM

Thanks, I will let you know when to expect him.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
Colorbynumbercritters.webs.com

On Sep 4, 2013, at 6:30 PM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

Do you have shipping info for me?

Sent from my iPhone

Sam H. <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 4, 2013 11:57 PM


Not yet, I will get the info out to you when I get it done. He will not be there tomorrow.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
http://colorbynumbercritters.webs.com/


On Sep 5, 2013, at 3:01 AM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

Okay, well no one will be around Friday to receive it.

We will need to ship out next week. My work schedule is very demanding, so I hope we can schedule on a day that works for me to receive.

Sent from my iPhone

Sam H. <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 5, 2013 6:56 PM

He is on his way, scheduled to be there tomorrow with your regular mail. I'm sorry for this miss communication. Have a place for your mail man to put the box out of the sun. He will be fine sitting in there for a long long while. When you get him let me know and hydrate him.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
http://colorbynumbercritters.webs.com/

On Sep 5, 2013, at 7:24 PM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

We live in an apartment complex. Our mailman is required to get signatures on packages. I specifically told you I needed him shipped on a day I would be around to receive him.

I hope you guarantee live delivery..

Sent from my iPhone

Sam Hacker <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 5, 2013 8:14 PM

Maybe you can write a note? Everything will be fine.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
Colorbynumbercritters.webs.com

On Sep 6, 2013, at 6:47 AM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

I need information about the box turtle's locality and when he was collected please

Sent from my iPhone

Sam H. <[email protected]>
Re: Message about: White Throated Eastern-Male from [email protected]
September 6, 2013 9:44 AM


He was collected about 12 years ago in Alabama.

Thanks
Sam Hacker
http://colorbynumbercritters.webs.com/

On Sep 6, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Gina McClimans <[email protected]> wrote:

Thank you. Our regular mail came and there was no turtle. Could I please have the tracking number?

Sent from my iPhone

END EMAIL COMMUNICATION

The turtle arrived at my house at 5:01 PM. Sam never emailed me back about tracking information. I think this is why...once the turtle arrived, the package was beaten up. There was nothing on it that said "this side up" or "fragile, handle with care". Then, I looked at the box. It was labeled Priority 2-Day shipping.

I have always shipped priority overnight for my reptiles and have had the experience that knowledgable people that are shipping do the same. I generally go through FedEx Ship Your Reptiles, but have received animals through other postal services as well...all priority (prior to 11 AM or noon) and all one day shipping.

If an animal is put in a box that is not labeled as fragile the postal service is NOT careful with the package.

Next, I looked up how much shipping cost. It stated on the box that shipping was $9.88. Had I known he was going to send the turtle out with two day shipping I either A, would have requested that he did not do that and would have fronted the entire shipping cost, or B, not purchased him at all.

Sam Hacker asked $175 on the box turtle. I ended up paying $200.96 ($5.96 PayPal fee). With a shipping cost of $9.88, he ended up making $185.12 on the turtle alone. He never stated that he was going to ship 2-day. When I asked for the shipping information Wednesday evening, he said he had not shipped the turtle out yet (Wed, Sep 4 at 11:57 PM). However, the shipping information that we looked up with the tracking number after the turtle arrived said it was shipped at 3:48 PM on that Wednesday (Sep 4).

I am appalled by his obvious lack of caring about the lives of the animals he sells.

The turtle, which he said has been a LTC for 12 years weighs in at 344 grams after soaking in water for 30 minutes. He is very small for the age Sam Hacker says he is. From my experience with box turtles, he was either extremely poorly cared for or he has not been in captivity for 12 years. Our friend's box turtle that we borrowed is only 7 years old and weighs 515 grams.


Here are my pictures:

Pic1: Beaten up shipping box
http://www.flickr.com/photos/101378089@N07/9690668710/

Pic2: Tracking info showing when the package arrived and when it was sent
http://www.flickr.com/photos/101378089@N07/9687428675/in/photostream/

Pic3: Shows how much postage cost and that it was 2-day priority
http://www.flickr.com/photos/101378089@N07/9690668730/in/photostream/

Pic4: PayPal receipt
http://www.flickr.com/photos/101378089@N07/9687428719/in/photostream/

Pic5: New turtle on the scale after his soak
http://www.flickr.com/photos/101378089@N07/9690692412/

Pic6: Timothy, our friend's turtle, on the scale
http://www.flickr.com/photos/101378089@N07/9687451991/in/photostream/
 
As far as I know it is still illegal to ship turtles USPS.




525 Nonmailable Live Animals

Nonmailable types of animals discovered in the mailstream must be reported to the PCSC in accordance with the instructions in POM 139.118. Additionally, the mailer and the post office of mailing must be notified to prevent future shipments from being incorrectly accepted for mailing.
525.1 Live Birds

Live birds, other than the type of day–old poultry specified in 526.31, are nonmailable. In addition, day–old poultry vaccinated with Newcastle disease (live virus) is nonmailable. The following are some examples of nonmailable birds:
Canaries.
Cockatiels.
Finches.
Parakeets.
Parrots.
Adult birds, except those specifically permitted under the conditions in DMM 601.9.3.4 and 601.9.3.5.
Be aware that the preceding list is not all–inclusive. Generally, all types of birds not listed in DMM 601.9 are nonmailable.
525.2 Live, Warm–Blooded Animals

The following are examples of other live, warm–blooded animals that are nonmailable:
Cats or kittens.
Dogs or puppies.
Guinea pigs.
Hamsters.
Mice.
Rabbits.
Rats.
Squirrels and flying squirrels.
525.3 Reptiles

All snakes, turtles, and poisonous reptiles are nonmailable.
525.4 Poisonous Insects and Spiders

All poisonous insects and all spiders, except scorpions under limited circumstances (see 526.5), are nonmailable. Other nonpoisonous and non–disease–conveying insects are permitted as stated in DMM 601.9.3.9 and in Exhibit 526.6.
 
I certainly agree that this reflects very poorly on Sam Hacker, and I will certainly factor this information into any future transactions with him, but your closing statements on the age and weight of the turtle are purely conjecture. First of all, the turtle you received is said to be LTC of 12 years, not 12 years old. Judging by growth patterns and wear this turtle could easily be at least 15-25 years old, or older. It is by no means an old turtle though. Basing your conclusion off of one other box turtle raised solely in captive conditions provides very little data. Geographic variation in this subspecies is significant, and adult size can easily range between 300 and 550 grams. In most populations any wild adult over 500 grams I would consider large. Now, the turtle you received could certainly be underweight and unhealthy, but the comparison you have provided does nothing to prove that.

I do not mean to be seen as attacking you, but statements made in the BOI are meant to be based on facts.
 
You are correct to state this. I was merely concerned when the turtle arrived and seemed so underweight compared to a turtle of similar size. I should have omitted the paragraph completely.
 
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