Coloration Ethics

[E2MacPets]

That's a good point Robin. What level of consumption is this dietary supplement based on? Tremper's caresheet suggests feeding 4 food items per day, I have a few geckos that would eat 30 if I let them!

 

[shuler06]

Great post Robin.

Thats kind of what I touched on when I stated that part about it not harming the animal. Miner-all I has had great effects on my Leos. So I think that kind of went along with what I said about our not using the same diets. My Leos seem better, now granted I don't have the wide range of animals as you do. I know as far as supplements are concerned that what is needed is used and what is not is passed, this being in humans. I truely have never heard of a supplement overdose, now steroids are a different story.

You are also right on the fact that we do not know what the effects will be in the long run. All we can do if we make up our mind to use some of these products, is learn as much as we can about the ingredients. Nothing is guaranteed. We actually don't really know what any of these processed supplements are going to do to our pets in the long run.

I would hope these supplements would have been put through extensive trials, but I know that is probably not the case.

Great discussion, I can hear the neurons sizzling



Tim

 

[robin d.]

i know that high levels of vitamin A can be fatal
i know in humans of the overdosing of potasium can be harmful and possibly fatal as well, so it's not unheard of just not as widely known and as far as reptiles it would be very interesting to see if any universities have looked into bitamins and mineral and the possibilities and effects of overdosing

 

[robin d.]

by the way tim, i got my glasses back today and will be dropping you a long detailed email... i have been totally without glasses which in my case is nearly sightless, for nearly three weeks, i havent gone long long without glasses or contacts since i was a kid. it's very taxing to write out long messages (esspecially after an 8 hr shift of 20/350++++) ill drop that email to you soon

 

[Intense Herpetoculture]

A excess of suppliments has shown to have an extremly negative effect on various highland chameleon species (C. jacksonii, C. johnstoni, etc.). I for one and very cautious with supplimenttion, but truthfully, the ingredients on the Sandfire Super foods seem like they woudl not cause any negative impacts, sadly there is only one way to find out.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Vitamin supplements are either water soluable or fat soluable in the body. Water soluable supplements like vitamin C and all of the B vitamins, are released slowly into the body and the excess gets passed out of the body through the kidneys. Fat soluable supplements such as A, D, E, and K can build up in the body and become toxic to the liver and other vital organs. Hypervitaminosis usually occurs with supplements that are fat soluable.

 

[robin d.]

thank you marcia!! with what marcia has said and what steven posted about the ingrediants i have come to a conclusion
out of all the ingrediants that were listed... all seem to be of the caroteen complex. it is stated that the beta caroteen is processed into vitamina a.... while the other ingrediants do have other benificial material in them my assumption that since they are still of the caroteen complex they will as well have the effect of producing more vitamin a.. which as stated by marcia is fat soluable, and this over production of fat soluable materials could cause an overdose by means of vitamin a
is this correct or am i missing something??
marvia imput please!!!!!!

 

[Seamus Haley]

Keep in mind though too that there's a difference between direct vitamins and substances which can be converted into them. Most vitamins any given animal ends up utilizing are synthesized from food... the body regulates itself and generally won't cause an overdose by synthesizing too much.

Most of the vitamin toxicity issues that exist come from direct intake of vitamins, rather than substances which can be converted into them... Direct injections for example... or people pounding pills until they become sick.

 

[KelliH]

I agree with Seamus on this one. I think beta carentene for instance, is converted in the body to Vitamin A on an as needed basis. I'm not sure a lot of beta caretene would cause a Vitamin A related problem. I would be very wary of using supplements that are very high in Vitamin A (Vionate for instance) more than maybe once or twice a month. Over time I would think that Vitamin A toxicity would occur and could cause a number of problems such as liver and kidney failure. Such problems may not be seen until an animal is a few years old, I think it probably would take that long to get to that point.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Agreed...

Perhaps I should have elaborated a little more in my post, but Seamus and Kelli are absolutely correct. Vitamin A in it's pure form would be the one I would be the most concerned about, but if we use our supplement products the way they are intended, there is really not a great chance of overdose. Moderation is the key... like Robin posted, some may think if a little is good, then a lot is even better, and this is simply not the case!

As an example, I have even heard of a woman die from complications of Vitamin C toxicity (which is water soluable) because she heard that it could cure her cancer. She took literally 100's of tablets a day over a period of time where it built up enough to cause organ failure. The cancer never even had a chance to spread!

 

[robin d.]

ok so if the body uses it on an as needed basis then the excess beta caroteen would be sent out the system. but like kelli said what about vitamin a based suppliments.... i know oof several breeders who use it solely... i guess like an all in one calcium and suppliment... so not only could this bee staining the animal from the inside out or enhancing the color but also could be causing long term illness?? liver and kidneys... the whole renal system....
hmmmmm

 

[Intense Herpetoculture]

I don't know of any reports suggesting the possibility of an over dosage of beta-carotene, but I do know of several sources showing it is harmless. I do know of several cases of over dosage involving vitamin A in it's direct form. As for coloration, it does not stain any organs and only affects skin pigmentation. Research from several sources in the early eighties also shows that beta-carotene helps the increased production of T cells which enhances the immune systems response to "search and destroy" foreign bodies such as bacteria and viruses. Beta-carotene has shown to be harmless in humans and various livestock species due to it being nontoxic, non-mutagenic, non-carcinogenic and non-harmful to developing embryos (Gaby and Singh). Now remember that in the wild the natural prey of leopard geckos (insects and such) feeds on plants high in beta-carotene. Perhaps within captivity we are proving an unnatural diet to feeders? Like always, we'll have to look into it further but I personally see nothing wrong with providing a supplementation that tries to duplicate that which the gecko would receive in the wild and so far has not shown to have any negative effects on the overall health of the gecko, in fact, it may help create a healthier animal.

 

[Bringerofdoom]

Re: hey emacpets

those pics u posted...was that one of the "ghost" hypos from knreptiles??? have u contacted them about it? what was their explanation?

very disconcerning to me (and should be to other hobbyist/buyers), since i've seen "ghost" or "faded" leopard geckos priced slightly higher...

-jon

i dont know about all that was said reguarding this, but i own 3 leopard geckos from knretpiles not once did they ever misrepresent the color of the ones on the website. the ones i have are still listed as available, cause they are very busy. the numbers if anyone is interested in looking at them are #D110 (split stripe desinger female), #P131 (Patternless 66% Het Tremper Albino Female) and another one that they didnt list, but looks very similar to #D102. the 3rd one was given to me for free, because of hurricane ivan delayed them from shipping to me for about 2 weeks scince i ordered them. as i said they all were very health and pretty geckos and they looked exactly like they pictured.

so i would say i would believe them that those are ghost....

 

[raingeckoiv]

What plants are they feeding on that are high in beta-carotene?

 

[LadyGecko]

This is an excellent post!!
I am really enjoying reading this!!
Anyway- I would just like to add on the subj. of toxicity from overuse of supplements that for years many Bearded Dragon keepers and breeders used calcium supplemented with Vit D3 on a regular daily basis.
It was thought that because the D3 helped in the absorption of the calcium that there simply could not be too much given.
Necropsy's of some animals on this supplementation showed a crystallizing/mineralizng of their organs from the overdosing of Vit. D3.
Link to this article is

http://www.icomm.ca/~dragon/kidney.htm

It is a common post on most BD forums now to warm new keepers not to use a vit, D 3 supplement more than twice per month on their dragons and that with proper lighting and diet this supplement actually is not needed at all..

Thanks for the great" Mind Food" on this forum guys!!
Sandy

 

[riverjop]

So the possibility of over sup-lamentation is always an ever present concern as well as under-sup-lamentation! This has always concerned me, and I rarely ever "dust" my insects any more. I make sure the insects have a wide variety of different foods and I add some vitamins & Minerals. But I feel that animals in general are much, much more in-tune with what "they" need. For example, your dog or cat eating grass to help there stomach, or deer, elk & other animals going to a natural mineral lick to get there needed minerals or butterflys doing the same on the side of a stream! I provide at all times a cap full of calcium & vitamins and let them decide if they want it. I feel that by me "dusting" the insects I am in fact forcing the vitamins on them. Just my 2 cents!

 

[Xelda]

Overton, I have the same worry. I think any herp that's been removed from it's natural diet will always need some supplementation to fill the gaps, but people overdo it. I've reduced my dusting regimen for adult non-breeders to once a week or so. I try to rely on gutloading with a variety of foods. I don't gutload with the same thing every time, and I also try not to feed the same bugs all the time. It seems like people forget that leos don't eat staple diets of mealworms and crickets in the wild.

 

[riverjop]

Olivia,

It definatly makes sense!