Compatibility Question

[Matt2979]

I've got 3 bearded dragons that I eventually planned to house together. My oldest girl is about 375 grams, around 18 months old. My other 2 are currently housed together. I got them at the same time (almost exactly 5 months ago), weighing almost the exact same. After a quarantine period to be sure both were fine (each from a different breeder) I housed them together and they are still keeping each other company.

Unfortunately, the little girl has not been eating and is showing early signs of a calcium deficiency. Both were taken to the vet yesterday. He got a clean bill of health, but I was told to separate them because she is so much more fragile in this state. They both still appear close in size, but he now weighs about 175 grams and she's just around 130.

At 175 grams, my common sense tells me that he's too small to house with my big girl at 375 grams, but how much of a difference is still safe?? She (older one) is in a 75 gallon aquarium. Is that even big enough for 3 adults? That's what I originally planned to keep them all in, but now am questioning that plan.

 

[Matt2979]

Anyone??

 

[chris allen]

They may have to be housed individually....that's always a chance. I would for sure plan on keeping the male seperate, and then maybe the two females together when they are closer in size. Right now the smaller one is half the size of the larger. The larger of the three could just be a dominant dragon and the others are getting stressed. Seperate, make sure all your lighting/temps and diet is in check and observe. Adjust accordingly and then maybe try to reintroduce later on.

 

[E.Shell]

I'd agree with Chris that they will ultimately need separate housing.

I have four BDs myself, plus I have researched BDs and their behavior extensively and follow several forums.

I see MANY instances where distressed owners find that BDs they've had together anywhere from 3 months to 3 years suddenly become hostile and injure each other. Then, it's too late, the damage is done.

Even BDs that don't injure each other outright will often develop a dominant/submissive relationship in which the dominant dragon flourishes and the submissive dragon is too stressed to function. The submissive animal often goes off his food and spends a great deal of time hiding or being frozen in place somewhere "out of the way" to avoid conflict.

 

[Matt2979]

I just re-read my original post and it's more confusing than I thought! lol The 3 dragons are NOT all together. The biggest is, and always has been, housed by herself. The 2 smaller dragons have been housed together for 4-4 1/2 months. They are definitely too small to live with my big girl.

I was asking: Will the 75 gallon tank comfortably accommodate all 3 AFTER they get closer in size? How close in size do they need to be before doing so?

But Ed brings up a great point about my 2 smaller ones and how they've started acting. I've never seen them fight or have any type of altercation; however, with the smaller girl barely eating lately, staying in one spot while he runs around, and going into her hide much more often than normal, I think it is time to separate them. Guess that also throws my plan of a communal tank out the window. (Which is what Chris said to be prepared for.)

Thanks for the advice from both of you. My desire to house these guys in a way that makes them comfortable trumps my wanting to house them to be "pretty together"!

 

[E.Shell]

Matt, even if they were able to coexist, I think I'd want them in a larger tank than a 75. I have my sub-adults in 75s and a home made display cage with about the same floor area.

I'd like to be able to provide them more space, even though they don't technically "need" it. With several lizards, one would not have to double the floor space per animal, but the enclosure would have to get bigger IMHO. Too bad they are solitary animals and usually only tolerate each other to breed.

The behavior you're seeing with the smaller lizard follows the archetype of overcrowding stress with these animals. They probably really DO have enough space per se`, but since they cannot stand to look at each other "this here town ain't big enough for both of us" goes, no matter how big the town (in standard aquarium terms).

Good luck with your dragons!

 

[Matt2979]

Matt, even if they were able to coexist, I think I'd want them in a larger tank than a 75. I have my sub-adults in 75s and a home made display cage with about the same floor area.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking since my big girl has gotten as big as she has...and she's still less than 2 years old so I expect she'll get a little bigger.

I guess the reason that I had it in my head (for them to live together) in the first place was when I saw a Youtube video from a larger breeder. I cannot remember which one it was, but I'm sure that if I mentioned his name, most everyone would know who I'm talking about. Anyway, he had either 2 or 3 females and 1 male together in a big aquarium (might've been a 150 gall). He said in the video that his business had originated with beardies so he wanted some in the snake room always.

He went on to say that he didn't bother cooling them, but if they bred, they bred. If they didn't, no biggie. They seem to be at peace, all living together and I thought, "Oh cool. I can do that!"

While I may breed these guys one day, I'm focused on my ball python and boa morphs and think of these guys more as pets. I also realize that I still have more research to do before seriously considering breeding them.

 

[dragonluver83]

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking since my big girl has gotten as big as she has...and she's still less than 2 years old so I expect she'll get a little bigger.

I guess the reason that I had it in my head (for them to live together) in the first place was when I saw a Youtube video from a larger breeder. I cannot remember which one it was, but I'm sure that if I mentioned his name, most everyone would know who I'm talking about. Anyway, he had either 2 or 3 females and 1 male together in a big aquarium (might've been a 150 gall). He said in the video that his business had originated with beardies so he wanted some in the snake room always.

He went on to say that he didn't bother cooling them, but if they bred, they bred. If they didn't, no biggie. They seem to be at peace, all living together and I thought, "Oh cool. I can do that!"

While I may breed these guys one day, I'm focused on my ball python and boa morphs and think of these guys more as pets. I also realize that I still have more research to do before seriously considering breeding them.

Hey Matt,

Did you say you had a female with a calcium deficiency? Is it bad? What were some of the signs? Also there are things you can do to boost her system to really get her going. Have you tried to give her anything?

A good first step would be to separate them like it was originally suggested.

Also for the cages, did you say you wanted to house all 3 together? Larger glass cages dont hold heat for crap. have you though of a wood cage? Like a boa master, with out spending boa master dollars?

 

[Matt2979]

Hey Matt,

Did you say you had a female with a calcium deficiency? Is it bad? What were some of the signs? Also there are things you can do to boost her system to really get her going. Have you tried to give her anything?

A good first step would be to separate them like it was originally suggested.

Also for the cages, did you say you wanted to house all 3 together? Larger glass cages dont hold heat for crap. have you though of a wood cage? Like a boa master, with out spending boa master dollars?

Hey Thomas,

Yeah, Dr Wilson told me that she was in early stages of a calcium deficiency and gave me a calcium concentrate to give her 2X/day for 30 days and then we'll decrease to 1X/day. Her only signs/symptoms were that she would lay with all 4 limbs splayed out and twitch uncontrollably (other than that, looked plump and healthy). Doc said that she would probably continue to twitch for 3-4 weeks.

Twitching was gone by early in the weekend so according to his assistant Tonya, when I called in with her progress today, she said that it must have been earlier in the stage than we thought so they may drop her dosage in half next week, instead of going the full 30 days.

I was told, in the vet's office last Wed, to not worry about "force-feeding" her this early on, but when she still wasn't eating (ANYTHING) on Friday, I found someone in another thread that posted about feeding banana via a syringe. I did that Friday night, Sat AM/PM and once on Sunday (NOT forcefully, but coaxed her at first and she started "enjoying" it). She's running around the cage and eating dusted crickets on her own now!

As far as the glass, I understand that. I was going to set-up a stack of cages in a corner of my snake room where the temp is consistent and higher....but then I thought about the higher humidity in there.

I was going to build a few melamine cages, but I'm hearing about problems with the glue and their health. I've used some for a few of my boas, but they have no claws. What do you use for yours?? I'm a very well equipped woodworker so I can build something nice...unless it's acrylic or expanded PVC! lol

Thanks for the help!
Matt

 

[dragonluver83]

Probably be easier to guide you through this over the phone as i can express myself alittle better, but lets give this a shot.

Hey Thomas,

Yeah, Dr Wilson told me that she was in early stages of a calcium deficiency and gave me a calcium concentrate to give her 2X/day for 30 days and then we'll decrease to 1X/day. Her only signs/symptoms were that she would lay with all 4 limbs splayed out and twitch uncontrollably (other than that, looked plump and healthy). Doc said that she would probably continue to twitch for 3-4 weeks.

Twitching was gone by early in the weekend so according to his assistant Tonya, when I called in with her progress today, she said that it must have been earlier in the stage than we thought so they may drop her dosage in half next week, instead of going the full 30 days.

They didn't mention. M.B.D. (metabolic bone disease?) Im pretty sure this is the early stages of it. A few things:
*You can go to the pet store and find calcium with D3. that would be a good thing to dust your bugs with. Instead of just the calcium.

*You can go to wal-mart, and get "Liquid coral calcium" An give it to them in a syringe. Its mainly for people. (to be mixed in a drink for the calcium boost. for those that need it) it has proven VERY effective for me and a a few others.

* you can also try and make little "calcium bombs" with your normal calcium powder and water. stick your finger in water, flick it. so your finger isnt dripping wet.Stick it in the calcium jar, and there will be a clump of calcium stuck to the end of your finger. Grab your dragons beard. (under the jaw) an gently pull down until her mouth opens and give her the clump of calcium. You can do this method with a syringe and water. But you will dilute the calcium down by doing so.

I was told, in the vet's office last Wed, to not worry about "force-feeding" her this early on, but when she still wasn't eating (ANYTHING) on Friday, I found someone in another thread that posted about feeding banana via a syringe. I did that Friday night, Sat AM/PM and once on Sunday (NOT forcefully, but coaxed her at first and she started "enjoying" it). She's running around the cage and eating dusted crickets on her own now!

I have always been "guided" away from fruits due to the high sugar content. I do believe if she is more active because the extra calcium has already made a difference.

As far as the glass, I understand that. I was going to set-up a stack of cages in a corner of my snake room where the temp is consistent and higher....but then I thought about the higher humidity in there.

I was going to build a few melamine cages, but I'm hearing about problems with the glue and their health. I've used some for a few of my boas, but they have no claws. What do you use for yours?? I'm a very well equipped woodworker so I can build something nice...unless it's acrylic or expanded PVC! lol

Thanks for the help!
Matt

Yea im thinkin if your snake room is like my friends, the humidity is too high!

I have been using melamine cages for 4 years. I have had dragons housed in those cages since they were babies. Of course in the proper size tanks. AN i have yet to have a issue. My four year old dragons are thriving and breeding.
Yes bearded dragons DO have nails. But there not razor sharp, there not even sharp enough to scrape a layer through the "layer" on the outside of melamine. When i have had gravid females digging in there cages. It leaves little scratch mark. An if imagined if i didnt have newspaper i wouldnt see the marks. (the ink colors in the tiny little scratch marks. SO what I do is clean the cage with a "mister clean magic eraser" and it does WONDERS!!! i have used those magic erasers for tons of different things and they have standed most any test I have put them too. An once you clean the cage with those erasers, you never knew a dragon scratch in those corners until they scratch again. Its not something you have to repeatably do. Just when a dragon is scratching at the corners.

As for the glue, like I stated the dragons NEVER (in four years time) Even broke through the outer layer of the cages. Rob Dachiu has been using these cages longer than me. I can only imagine if there was a problem, he would of seen something by now.

I attached a few pic of what my cages look like. (Matt I know you have seen these cages in another thread.) But if your interested. I can get into alittle more detailed pics, If your handy man. This is a walk in the park.

 

[Matt2979]

Probably be easier to guide you through this over the phone as i can express myself alittle better, but lets give this a shot.


They didn't mention. M.B.D. (metabolic bone disease?) Im pretty sure this is the early stages of it. A few things:
*You can go to the pet store and find calcium with D3. that would be a good thing to dust your bugs with. Instead of just the calcium.

Yes, M.B.D. I keep forgetting that term, but that was what she was in the early stages of (I just kept remembering "calcium deficiency"). What the vet has me giving her is Calcium Glubionate 30cc per ml and I administer .05ml every 12 hours orally with a syringe. At first I was having to pull on her beard, as you described, but now I just have to touch her nose and she laps it up!

What I'm dusting my bugs with now is Fluker's Reptile Vitamins with Beta Carotene. It still show the main ingredient as Dibasic Calcium Phosphate, and it has 10,000 IU of D-3. Is that the supplement that you're referring to? (The day before I had to take her to the vet, I had just run out of Rep-Cal and decided to replace it with Fluker's.)

*You can go to wal-mart, and get "Liquid coral calcium" An give it to them in a syringe. Its mainly for people. (to be mixed in a drink for the calcium boost. for those that need it) it has proven VERY effective for me and a a few others.

Are you suggesting that I do this now, along with the solution that I'm administering now? Or later, as a basic supplement?

* you can also try and make little "calcium bombs" with your normal calcium powder and water. stick your finger in water, flick it. so your finger isnt dripping wet.Stick it in the calcium jar, and there will be a clump of calcium stuck to the end of your finger. Grab your dragons beard. (under the jaw) an gently pull down until her mouth opens and give her the clump of calcium. You can do this method with a syringe and water. But you will dilute the calcium down by doing so.

I'm glad to hear this, as I tried almost this exact same thing within minutes of getting off the phone with the vet, last Wednesday! Watching this little girl twitching so badly and knowing that my appointment wasn't for several more hours (the vet had mentioned this being early signs of MBD), I wet my finger and stuck it in the Fluker's. I didn't know about pulling on her beard (vet showed me that trick a few hours later) so I just rubbed some on her nose until she started licking. I know I got a little in her mouth, but I mostly made a big mess!! lol

I have always been "guided" away from fruits due to the high sugar content. I do believe if she is more active because the extra calcium has already made a difference.

I was wondering about this, but felt it better to get SOMETHING in her stomach. I didn't give her a lot of it, but was hoping that a little something in her stomach would remind her that she liked to eat?? I tried finely chopping some spinach. I got it in the syringe, but...well...didn't come out of the smaller end so easily!

Yea im thinkin if your snake room is like my friends, the humidity is too high!

Definitely.

I have been using melamine cages for 4 years. I have had dragons housed in those cages since they were babies. Of course in the proper size tanks. AN i have yet to have a issue. My four year old dragons are thriving and breeding.
Yes bearded dragons DO have nails. But there not razor sharp, there not even sharp enough to scrape a layer through the "layer" on the outside of melamine. When i have had gravid females digging in there cages. It leaves little scratch mark. An if imagined if i didnt have newspaper i wouldnt see the marks. (the ink colors in the tiny little scratch marks. SO what I do is clean the cage with a "mister clean magic eraser" and it does WONDERS!!! i have used those magic erasers for tons of different things and they have standed most any test I have put them too. An once you clean the cage with those erasers, you never knew a dragon scratch in those corners until they scratch again. Its not something you have to repeatably do. Just when a dragon is scratching at the corners.

As for the glue, like I stated the dragons NEVER (in four years time) Even broke through the outer layer of the cages. Rob Dachiu has been using these cages longer than me. I can only imagine if there was a problem, he would of seen something by now.

I attached a few pic of what my cages look like. (Matt I know you have seen these cages in another thread.) But if your interested. I can get into alittle more detailed pics, If your handy man. This is a walk in the park.

Now this is awesome news! I didn't think that they could dig through a layer of melamine, but I thought maybe the "fuss" was more over them scratching the service and maybe getting the fumes of whatever the melamine is made of? But this is great news.

Your cages look a LOT like the ones I built for a few boas...only exception being the lighting. I've actually got pieces cut for another 4'x2x1' enclosure, vent holes already cut out and pocket holes drilled. All I need to cut now are holes for the light's wiring. Actually, I think I may need more glass tracks. I've already got several glass door cut and ready (my brother is a glass man so I had him cut me a couple of sheets into a stack of doors at one time). I've been getting my glass tracks (what the glass doors actually slides in) from Rockler. Do you have a better place to get it?

Thomas, if you have time to discuss any of this on the phone, I'd be more than happy to talk to you. I went ahead and answered your questions here because I'm sure that someone else could benefit from this info, but I'm sure I could benefit from picking your brain a little more! I'll PM you with my number.