considering becoming first-time owner: questions

[Matthias]

hi,

wanted a chameleon for years. now i'm 31, and have decided (or mostly decided) to get one. probably a panther; i love their color and look. i've read a number of online boards/postings/faqs/what not over the past few days, but still have a couple of questions, if anyone could be so kind.

1) i've seen a couple of places where there's space suggestions (19-38 gallons; 38 gallons; 100 gallons) dependant on the stage of growth. is baby/juvenile/adult < 3 months / 3-6 mos? / > 6 mos? > 1 year? i'd like to get one around 3 months old but from what i've read aren't sure what point in development that is and don't want to buy two cages/setups in close succession, but have read that too much space freaks them out so wondering what the age cutoffs are. and then there was the 1-gallon DIY home: i'm guessing that's strictly for newborns?

also, does it make sense to buy a cheaper, mesh reptarium-style cage for him to start off with and then move to something more sturdy once he graduates to his permanent home?

2) window or not to window? i've read placing them near a window is bad because it causes temperature fluctucuations (i live in nyc if it matters) but other places read natural sunlight is good. (so placing them near an open window and getting them unfiltered light: good or bad?)

3) i get that being near other chameleons freak them out... does that also go for any other form of life that's not supper? it sounds like it, but i haven't seen anything directly on point on it.

4) living in nyc, i don't have a spare room that he could just chill by his lonesome. so he can either get the living room, which gets some television watching, but is pretty low traffic b/c i'm not home much, or get my room, which is quieter (generally) traffic, but when i get home, i sometimes stay up late, like tonight (4.04am right now)... do they get bothered by room lights that are above them that throw off their night/day cycles? or do they not pay attention to that and rely on their own, personal light for that kind of stuff? basically, given the choice between slightly more day noise and more night light, which is the least bad? i could also fit him into my closet, at least in baby's first cage, but that's not the best ventilated. so bad option #3.

if this could all be answered by a book, that's cool, and would be my last question: if there's a, "this is really the book which is good and the must-own for someone considering buying a cham."

i appreciate any input people could give on these.

 

[niels]

Hi Matthias

I can't tell you how big the cage will be, because there is no real answer to that.
My cages ( to adults) are 20*16*40, but larger is always better. I have all my babys in candy boxes with only a fluorescent. I know that you offen use cages with mesh, but i live in Denmark and have low temps, so i use glass.

I would never have a cage in the window, because in a summer day it can really get hot. any way all the uvb light will not go through the glass. some times i take them out of cage and put them in a plant in the window, they enjoy the light from the sun and if it gets to hot they can just walk away.

but it is a really good idea if you could put him out side in the summer/ dont know your temps), because the uvb Is really really healthy to the chams.

yes chams should never be in the same cage, but i have males in diffrent cages and they can see each other and they do fine. how would they do in the nature? you are right, there should not be to much traffic in the room, but as long as you are not having party all the week, there should be no problem. just dont have the cage near a door, so your not always working past it.

have you bin keeping any other repptiles?

hope i coud help

sorry for my bad english

Niels

 

[whitey4311]

First off ignore ther aforementioned GLASS ANYTHING cage idea. If you would like a dead cham soon go ahead and get one. When you see all those pretty pics of chams that people post they have put them in front of a mirror or another cham to elicit the colorful display the respond with. It is not harmful to do that here and there selodonly but when they stare at their reflection all day they will soon die of stress.
All screen is fine and do not worry about humidity and temps through out the entire cage. There should be a basking spot that is in the 90's for panther adults and a bit lower for babies. Spraying several times a day works fine or a humidifier if you are that concerned about it. I have an automated mister that does 7 cycles at 5 min each. For now you can hand mist the plants inside the cage completely 2-3 times a day and have a constant dripper for water and humidity with good results. What ever you do no glass or reflective material. It may work for some and they may say its ok but you can hopefully understand the logic of them being streesed in a mirror that it will elicit the same response in something else reflective.

Sunlight is the what we are all trying to replicate so it is the best source of UV. Any sort of glass will deflect the UVB and provide only UVA which is good for them showing off color but is not beneficial for health. The whole issue is that infront of a window with no good air flow causes high temps from magnified temps. Mine are in front of the sliding glass door but my cage is huge.

Terrariu,ms are ****y and the zippers will go out in time. If you want to spend the money on a cham now and cant spend a lot then get one but know that when you get your money saved up again you will want a good cage. The biggest cages I think that are most popular and easy to find are somethign like 24x24x48 That is a good size but I overkill everything I do in life and go big from the start, thats personal preference but not needed. Most have these cages and they are fine. I have one outside for warm summer days for good UV exposure. Mine go out about 1-2 days a week for improved health.

You need to get the supplement facts down, UV lights, Heat lights, Dripper, and spray bottle. These are a must but Exo Terra vine makes some cool decoration along with some pothos plants for vines to climb. Supplements consist of the following which are the regimen of a good breader I got 1 of my chams from.
Rep Cal Calcium with Vit D3 on tue and fri, Rep Cal Herptivite with beta carotene on mon and thur, and sticky tongue famrs Miner All WITH OUT VIT D3 on wed and sat. The with out vit D3 is important because you are already using it in the first product and too much is bad news. Lightly dust your crikets with it and serve them up. Gut load your crickets as well with a good product. I made my own but like I said I go over board with this stuff. Here are some pics.
Uv lights for that cage should be a zoo med 5.0 or 10.0. I have very powerful ones for my cage due to the size but if you are getting a 4ft tall one it wont be necessary.
The cage is hand made by me and a friend that took 2 months to finish. Get some ideas from the set up. Look closely at the lamp shades its a coll trick i did to cover up those crapy looking silver domes.

 

[whitey4311]

PS put the cage wher you like they will do fine. They all have individual peronalities. One of my panthers lets the dog sniff it through the cage and the other hisses and rus when it see my hand in the cage. You will get to know your pet and decide what is best for it. Sunlight through the glass will serve for them showing good color in the day times but is not beneficial for health. I leave the shades shut but trned sideways to allow for some light in but not an over whelmig amount to pervent over heating.
Look into some good lighting for UV. I love mystic bulbs from Big Appl Herp, the chams love the lights much more than the 5.o but use wth caution since the emitt high levels of UV. Some people disagree with this but if you saw my chams and their colors when under the lights you would think again. They dont react to the zoo med weak uv output bulbs at all but with these they soak it up as if they were outside. This is what we are rying to replicate and it best does so with these bulbs in my opinion. If you get one I would use the 8inch bulb and fixture for 2 cycles a day at 2 hrs each. This will prevent over exposure and give your cham much more UV.
Start askign questions and we will fire away. I dont know everythign but have had chams for 4-5 yrs with no deaths yet. So I have learned some but awlays like to learn more and try the new technology out there. What I do know is GLASS is a no no. In front of a glass door is bad at night as well because its dark outside and the bright reptile lights make a bad reflection causing the same effects as a mirror. At night I shut the blinds to prevent this but a cage of any amt of glass you are SOL.

 

[niels]

hi Whitey4311
I can see that you have bin keeping chams for about 4-5 years, and that is fine, just dont tell people not to use glass if you dont know if it works.
im an old cham keeper and only use glass or wood cages and there is NO problems.
no body told you to have glass on all 4 sides of the cage. I only have glass on the front. I know that in usa, many use mesh and im not saying you should'nt use that, because i dont live in usa and if it works for you, then its fine by me.
ALL the people i know here in EU use glass or wood(with glass on the front) and we dont have any problems. the humanity "could" be a problem if you have chams that need high humanity. My chams are not stressed!
I think many much of the things you wrote was good, and im sure matthias could use it, I just got angry when you told him not to use glass. there is no right way to keep chams, every one has a way they think works. If you read cham news you will see discussion about using glass or mesh.

http://chameleonnews.com/year2002/july2002/up_north_caging/up_north.html
regards Niels
Start askign questions and we will fire away. I dont know everythign but have had chams for 4-5 yrs with no deaths yet. So I have learned some but awlays like to learn more and try the new technology out there. What I do know is GLASS is a no no. In front of a glass door is bad at night as well because its dark outside and the bright reptile lights make a bad reflection causing the same effects as a mirror. At night I shut the blinds to prevent this but a cage of any amt of glass you are SOL.

 

[screameleons]

Check out this article

Here is any easy read that should get you started:

http://www.screameleons.com/portal/alias__Screameleons/lang__en-US/tabID__3391/DesktopDefault.aspx

 

[Matthias]

ah, yes. your screameleons site and post i've read (although i forgot the bit you have on the ages). very helpful. and from what i've seen, highly reccomended as a place to purchase a cham.

and thanks to all for the advice thus far. but questions i haven't seen an answer to yet are: can you house a chameleon with something else not a chameleon? (like, assuming the habitats were compatible, could you put a gecko or some such in a large cham habitat? or would it freak out the cham too much? from what i've read, i would infer it wouldn't work, but haven't seen anything directly on point.) also, would the chams get bothered by the light in the room they're in (not their own basking & heat light) being on at odd hours? and is there a definitive book to buy prior to buying a cham?

i'm just trying to gather all the info i can before buying anything to make sure it would work out and to try to make the best setup i can prior to purchasing.

thanks everyone!

 

[whitey4311]

That big cage is in my living room and they do their own thing with out being bothered. They will actually start to respond to you coming to the cage thinking that they are getting fedd food. Mine see the cricket cup and start coming over to the spot that I place it in the cage for their food every morning. Its like clock work after a bit and they will learn. My Vield is in a wall less cage similar to that set up but in the open and he gets ready to fire his tongue every time you put your finger out. He got used to being hand feed silk worms.

I am strongly suggesting you dont use glass. Think logically for 3 seconds on why they puff up at their reflections and get ready to fight and tell me why you would want them to see their reflection all day long and cant get away from it. That will cause so much stree and problems that you dont want. Humidity or not it wont provide health benefits and if you choose to use it then it is for astetic purposes and you just want it to look good. I really wanted plexi glass doors on the front of my cage but knew better. Glass used on cages is often for babies and very young chams but not adults. Do your research and ask around you will find a lage majority who will support not using glass.
Mixing chams with other animals I dont think is a good idea. You never know what could happen. Trust me you will have plenty to look at in the cage. The chams are fascinating to watch for hours. Its like a fish aquarium.

Not knowing that glass "Works" and knowing what it causes are 2 different ideas here. We are not talking about somethign cople like UV lights and what is better. THSE TOPICS are like beating a dead horse around here but GLASS, lol. Pure logic will serve as the answer to that topic. Holding your cham in the mirrr causes them to go into self deffense mode which is stressful, surely you an coorelate that as beign the same when they see their reflection in glass doors.

 

[niels]

my mon once told me "if you cant say any nice things, then dont say any thing"

so thats just what i want to do.

Hi matthias
i dont hope you will trust whitey4311 as you can read, he only trust him self and if i was wrong( and ALL my cham friends from Eu) why would we have no problems with our chams? maby it sound logical with the mirror thing, but i never had any problems.
yes they could get upper respitory infection if it was like a fish tank, but we use mesh on the top and one of the sides. Any way i hope you will trust me even though whitey4311 want me to sound like....i dont know.

I would never have any other reptiles in the same cages with my chams ( again,thats just what works best for me) i only keep me chams together when i breed them, but other then that i dont. even my babys have there own cages, because i think they grow much better in that way.
about the light out side the cages, hmm i have never had any problems with that. I have automatic light on all my cages and they "know" when the light will go of. i try to turn the light on and of the same time every day, to make it more natural.

what panther morphs are you thinking of buying?
regards Niels

 

[Matthias]

thinking of buying a panther morph from the kammer's (kammerflage kreations). i really like the look of the antilobe's and tamatave's (like the fiery red) and my girlfriend likes the blue of the nosy be's and they have antilobe/nosy be/tamatave crosses for sale. so if they still have some left by the time i get its home set up, that would be my first choice. just looking for a pet, not to breed, so only care what we like the look of.

i would set the cage's interior light on a timer, but my only concern on lighting is that i don't live by a timer: sometimes asleep at midnight, sometimes not until four, and that the irregular timing of the overhead light from the living room may throw off any patterns/rhythms the cham may get into. or do they not pay attention to that or not need absolute dark in order to sleep.

i wasn't considering a glass cage. was asking if they should be put near a window, but i've read enough on ventilation and airflow to know to steer clear of glass aquariums. was looking at the kammer's cage setups, however. anyone know if those are any good?

sorry if my questions sound repetitive: i just want to make sure that it's going to work so i don't buy and put the chameleon into a bad situation.

thanks again!

 

[niels]

ha ha you must mean Ambilobe, not antilobe, but nevermind.
im not so much into hybrids, but if you dont want to breed them, then i think it's a great idea. they have lot of nice colors. I have to agree with your girl firend, the Blue nozy be is really awsome.

well you could still have a timer on the cage, even though you have the light on in the room or the tv is on. when i begon keeping chams, i was really afraid that they shoul get stressed, but after kepping chams for many years now, im much more calm.
I have a tv in the same room with my chams( or some of them) and EVEN if i have the light on, they will find there sleeping spot and get to sleep. Im not saying you chould have the light on, but once in a while there will be no problems. I still like to keep the room dark when they want to sleep, so offen i only have my tv on.

thanks matthias. yes keep away from glass aquariums, the air flow is a must. as you know im from Denmark, so cant tell you if they work.

"sorry if my questions sound repetitive: i just want to make sure that it's going to work so i don't buy and put the chameleon into a bad situation."

no that is just a good thing, many people dont read enough about them before they buy them.

 

[whitey4311]

kammer's are exellent to deal with.I got my sambava from them.He ate and drank in the first hour of unpacking him.Their cages are the same as anyones so check ebay for some deals.
Good choice on the not using glass, i see you have at least done some reading to know better.
My chams are in the living room and their lights are off at 7 but we watch Tv till late, they may open their eyes at times to see what is going on but are not bothered by it.
All my info on supplements is from them so email them for their care sheets, they are full of good stuff for you to know. The lady you will talk to is so nice and gurantees perfect flawless chams to your door.She will even help you with any questions after the purchase and seems happy to do so.
They have my vote 100%.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hey Jack !!

JACK,
While I think that most of your advice is well-intended, if you want to be taken seriously, and considering the effort you put into your posts, how about fixing the ignorance in your name. Hiding ?

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

 

[whitey4311]

basically so ignorant morons like yourself who like to see how much info they can have on a person.
That was a lame post man, go massage your chams and have a good night spanky. I'll send you a link for a mail order bride to keep you busy a bit.

 

[Chameleon Company]

But you are the only one in this thread who has to hide behind a pathetic made up name, and then take cheap shots at others. Neils gave some good opinions, and yet you used your mask to deride him. Do you feel good Jack? Afraid to go in public Jack? What's the matter JACK ? For our foreign readers, "Jack Mehoff", or "Jack Melhoff" is a made up name that little kids use which refers to masturbation. Jack seems very familiar with the process. Its a shame, for while "Jack" has some knowledge, he also uses the silly identity to malign others. I would view all of his posts with a grain of salt.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

 

[niels]

thanks jim.

well i would never made any one angry and try not to call jack names, i just think it is stupid of him to tell any one that it kills and stress the chams, to keep them in cages made out of glass. ALL the people i know and even some of them from cham news use glass, so i really cant see whay he would say that. maby it sound logical that they will be stressed, but i have never seen it and im not new in chams.

people keep chams in diffrent ways and thats it. Im not telling any one that jack is not right, im only trying to help matthias.
thats all

 

[mattjillson]

Well, "Jack's" advice in regards to housing is actually sound and you should strongly consider heeding what is said. I think the issue is how the advice comes across. The whole name thing too takes back from the credibility of the souce, maybe an alias with a bit more imagination would help - Dr. Richard Kimball, for instance, sounds important and is funny no less. At any rate, Niels, you should consider changing your set up as it will inevitably lead to your animal's early demise. Sure, you can keep an adult living in those conditions but not thriving for the long term. Glass is best suited for rearing baby Chams, not adults and even with babies it isn't the idea setup but it will get you by. Best of luck and while the source is spiteful they do make a point that you should strongly take a second look at.

-Matt

 

[whitey4311]

LOL, thank you.
I dont see the point of listing ones identity on any thing internet related unless it is for buisness. I am not here for buisness and simply strongly disagree, like others, that glass is a mishap. If you would like to know my california license number let me know. Sounds pretty stupid to want to know ones name, for what purpose? You want to do some cyber bashing and beat me up old man? LOL, this place is often filled with pyschos like yourself that try to find whom they disagree with and harass them with knowing their personal info. Seems stupid to me to list your identity on the net and good luck with that.

Try responding to the threads and not go off topic with "old man" scarry tactics. At your age I repair hips often, be carefull.

So the glass issue seems to be settled. Anyone that tries to justify aesthetically pleasing cages for the trade of health and claims to have many friends, which might be 1 other person, needs to read up before they suggest it to other new owners. Going out on a limb as I hve done with my Mystic UV light set up is to be done with caution and close watch but not suggested as being a good starting point for newbie cham owners. I started with a veild and learned as I read and questioned many breaders ect before buying panthers. Not to say you cant start with a panther with doing some good research, but its not sound advice to say it works for me so its correct.
My lights emitt 10 times more UV than those 5.0 bulbs and some are affraid of them but I wouldnt reccomend it to new owners. I would say go with has been proven to work through publishing and use the 5.0 ect.
I think there are more concerns of supplements and that should be addressed from here. What cage he decides to use is the least of the worries to start owning a cham.
You can take my points how ever you want secondary to being ruffled about me snapping back at rude comments from the old timer who thinks I should disclose personal info. It was a lame attack that did not start on my behalf and ther person who initiated this had nothign to do with the conversation and still does not. He needs to stay on topic and not pick battles over the internet where one cant deffend themselves.

ON WITH CHAMELEON TALK BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE LOVE!

 

[mattjillson]

In regards to your husbandry suggestions I believe you to be right on "Jack" but as I am sure you are well aware there is no one right way to do Chameleons. There is good and there is better as well as what works and what doesn't. If this guy can make the glass work for him and he is able to produce viable offspring that in turn produce offspring themselves well, success is success, right? I personally don't think long term it will work out but it could.

As for the comments on Jim's age, you should be looking more at it as Jim's experience. Jim knows more about breeding, hatching, raising and cage design when it comes to Chameleons than you or I for that matter will ever know in our entire life, bottom line. I've seen his Greenhouse, which is the largest Chameleon breeding facility in the World hands down and have worked with the animals. He is isn't producing chump offspring there and has 6+ year old breeders still kicking with quite a bit of life in them. His offspring at 3 months are the size of anyone else's 6 month olds and I don't care who you are that includes all the "big name" breeders and even the people who think they are big names. What he is doing is obviously right I'd say which lends much more weight to what he is saying than what you preach. Raising 2 animals right is very good but raising thousands perfectly is much better. Regardless of what you say about his age he's got experience in his holster to back up what he says whereas you don't.

I think the point Jim is trying to make is if you are after offering credable facts and want to be taken seriously with the pen name "jack off" you probably aren't going about it correctly. With that said, to me, good advice is good advice regardless if someone wants to be know as "jack off".

-Matt

 

[whitey4311]

What the hell is this "jack off" thing? If i wanted to write jack off I would have. Meholf is my last name but know I dont go by jack for my first name, there is no other meanign to it. Is this what this BS Is about? I cant believe you sickos think of this stuff. I was wondering what the post about masterbation had anythign to do chams was for? Christ I didnt say he knew knothing or challenge his knowledge, simply chill the hell out and get off my back about what I guess now is an apparent name that you gave me. Jack off is jack off Jack Meholf is not even close to the same. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????