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Corn Snakes -Persistent, Severe Respiratory Infection? Sinus Problems?

No, the fungal cultures did not come back, we opted to go ahead and initiate treatment because the cultures take 6+ weeks, apparently, and they were worsening.

However, after the first treatment, one of the snake's has worsened so much overnight, I'm not sure it's such a good idea anymore. I'm also not sure it's a good idea because I feel like the drug is making ME ill because of the constant required interference with the nebulizer.

And, my vet today pretty much told me he was giving up. Nobody will call him back for a consult.

So, I'm extremely depressed and have a migraine and have to figure out what I am going to do next.

hhmoore said:
and I wouldn't breathe that stuff.....

Just curious, does the Ampho treatment mean the fungal cultures came back positive?
I'm guessing that the reason for nebulization is twofold - a) to directly coat/treat the airways, and b) to attempt to minimize systemic absorption. Ampho is metabolized pretty slowly...I know it can be found in urine for several weeks after cessation of IV administration (that's in humans). I'd be concerned with nephrotoxity, were you advised to push fluids?
Click to expand...
 
After Sharra, the oldest female, had the first breathing treatment of the Amphotericin B, the next day she literally had so much fluid buildup and was wheezing so badly I could see the fluid buildup in her throat and a little behind. I actually tried to sample some of it to take to the lab but she pushed it back down and i couldn't get it out.
 
Small update:

Have been speaking with my dear, good friend Tom Harbin, DVM, since my vet here in Gainesville is at a loss and has pretty much given up. We came to this decision:

I stopped the nebulizer treatments on the three corn snakes because:
1) The medicine was making me sick.
2) The medicine was making Sharra almost keel over and die.
3) The fungal culture STILL has not returned and I believe the sample will prove inadequate so I will not continue to harm myself and the snakes with the treatment until I have something more definitive.

Tom Harbin suggested to me going back to the Baytril, so that's what I've been doing. Every 3 days, I have been injecting .10cc of Baytril into a small fuzzy mouse. They are all still eating with no problems. I've done this 4 times, and none of them are showing any improvement.

If and when the fungal culture comes back, if it's negative, perhaps I'll speak to the vet about combining the Baytril with another antibiotic and perhaps a steroid, and inject those into the fuzzy as well to see if that maybe helps? I am at a total loss here.

I've attempted to contact Dr. Elliot Jacobsen via e-mail and phone, but I don't know if he's just not getting my messages or if he's on vacation or something. Dr. Rossi still has not returned my vet's phone call, neither has Dr. Stahl.

Grr, Argh.
 
The only thing is, all you've got is negative cultures....not much indication for changing, or combining, antibiotics. Did you ever do the fecal?
 
Negative bacterial cultures - the fungal still has not come back.

We did do fecal samples on all 3 snakes - Results as follows:

Adore - Normal
Sharra - An egg of something that 3 vets at the clinic had no idea what it was/could not identify
Argent - Egg of same thing that Sharra had, as well as something apparently "mite-like" in the feces - My snakes don't have mites, so I have no idea what on earth this could be.

We got further fecal samples on Sharra and Argent and sent them off to another lab with a veterinary pathologist. Stilll awaiting results.
 
I wonder if there were any kind of chemical agents used during the cleaning of the place before you moved there? Almost sounds like some sort of allergy or respiratory irritation due to environmental causes. Do you have a reptile room or are your animals located in a central location? If its just a smaller room, I would try using an air purifier to get rid of any possible air irritants and allergens. I talked to a friend of mine who works as a vet tech at a vet office that specializes in exotics plus he has a nice collection of reptiles himself. Also, if that does not alleviate any symptoms, maybe take the snakes to a vet that specializes in more exotic animal species, like reptiles. I heard the UF small animal hospital is one of the best in the country and it can't be too far from your location.
 
Someone else mentioned the air thing, I would think if that were the case more snakes would be sick, but it wouldn't hurt to try the air purifier. Do you have one? Wanna come over? :D

Yesterday was week 6 on the fungal cultures and still no results.

They've had 6 treatments of .10cc injected fuzzy mice, no improvements.
 
Sorry, I have no air purifier. I could still come over sometime anyways. :D
I am sure snakes are like other animals and different things can trigger their allergies. Just like any other animal, each snake's body is different.
What kind of substrate are you keeping them on?
 
I went by the vet's office yesterday and demanded he call the lab and ask for SOME SEMBLANCE of some answer on the fungal cultures. They can at least freaking tell if there is SOMETHING growing, so we know at least SOMETHING. i was so angry. And then of course, they never called. So I'm calling again today.

I've put 3 phone calls into Dr. Elliiot Jacobsen and left 3 voicemails at 3 different numbers to call me or my vet back for a consult. Still no word.


The symptoms seem to literally be rotating between all of the snakes. It is the most bizzare thing I've ever seen -

Last week, Argent seemed like he was on death's door. I went in there, he was coiled in a ball, he had his head tilted at a weird angle with his mouth gaping open with drool coming out. I thought he was dead. I tapped on the cage and he was like "What, what? I'm awake". The same day, Adore, the youngest, seemed perfectly fine with a few minor sniffles here and there. No issues at all.

This week, it's completely opposite. Argent seems TOTALLY fine, except a few sniffles. Now Adore seems miserable and is wheezing/popping like crazy.

Sharra seems to fluctuate weekly as well. Some weeks I think she's better, then the next week it's back to popping/wheezing/sneezing...But she is no where NEAR as bad as she was the 2-3 days after the Amphotericin treatment.

I am at such a loss. :(
 
Update:

I'm extremely upset and so frustrated I could scream.

Just found out the fungal culture results came back negative. They've had the results for 3 weeks but due to some fax machine malfunction and the vet hospital not following up with a phone call, they just sat on somebody's desk.

No idea what to do now, treatment wise.
 
Just thought I would do a small update, even though there isn't much to say...

All three snakes have been through a full 3 week deworming regiment. It did nothing and changed nothing in their symptoms.

They are all still sneezing, wheezing, and mouth-gaping. However, they seem active, otherwise happy, and are eating with no problems whatsoever. I just don't understand it at all.

The next course of action is they will be getting x-rays this week or next per another vet's recommendation. This should theoretically show if it's a sinus problem or if there's lung tissue damage from a bacterial or fungal infection that is too deep to be cultured by a normal swab culture.

The other course of action was to try them all on a regiment of Fortaz. I have not been able to affordably get ahold of any Fortaz, as it comes only in 10 vial packages for $200+, and my vet doesn't carry it. We are trying to see if we can buy one or two vials from another facility but it isn't looking promising - so that attempt may have to wait until I have the money to buy the medication.

Again, I ask myself, if the RI is that severe - we are going on 4+ months of this nonsense now with 2 of the snakes, over 8 months with one of them - wouldn't they be dead by now?? I just don't understand it at all.

Another vet friend suggested cryptosporidiosis, he said it does not show up on fecals and can present itself as a respiratory problem instead of a GI one. I've personally never heard of this, so thoughts on this suggestion would be appreciated.
 
Could it be allergies?

Having read this whole thread and all the tests you have done coming back negative. With no real response to the treatments it makes me think allergies. It may not be the aspen. It could be any cleaning chemicals you may use in your home. Even air fresheners can cause symptoms like this.

When I had my shop and Febreeze first came on the market we had a number of customers who would have one or two of their pets come down with symptoms similar to what you're describing. Yet other pets in their homes were not affected. It turned out it was caused by the Febreeze. Once they stopped using it the symptoms went away. Just a thought but I would start looking at environmental and any new products you may have introduced into your home around the time this all started. It may be any number of things from air fresheners, fabric softeners, floor cleaners, even swiffers could be a possibility.
 
snakechaarmer said:
Another vet friend suggested cryptosporidiosis, he said it does not show up on fecals and can present itself as a respiratory problem instead of a GI one. I've personally never heard of this, so thoughts on this suggestion would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't even consider that. I've read up a lot on crypto, exotic veterinarian medical journals that the printer I worked for frequently had articles and studies on it and I've never once read or heard it would present itself respiratory (in any strain that infects reptiles). Here is an article I wrote up based on my research.

I wouldn't bother because your snakes don't appear to be exhibiting crypto symptoms (and a lot more of your snakes would be infected by now), but you can get acid-fast testing done on fecal samples to test for oocysts. You'll need to do it 3 times to be relatively certain they are crypto-free.

Good luck!
 
TripleMoonsExotic said:
I wouldn't even consider that. I've read up a lot on crypto, exotic veterinarian medical journals that the printer I worked for frequently had articles and studies on it and I've never once read or heard it would present itself respiratory (in any strain that infects reptiles). Here is an article I wrote up based on my research.

I wouldn't bother because your snakes don't appear to be exhibiting crypto symptoms (and a lot more of your snakes would be infected by now), but you can get acid-fast testing done on fecal samples to test for oocysts. You'll need to do it 3 times to be relatively certain they are crypto-free.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

You know, I am a complete dumbass. LOL. I am a freaking histo-tech and I know what crypto is in the human setting, and I know that acid-fast tissue stains and cytology stains will stain it - duh. I should've thought of that because I was actually pondering - well how do you see it if it doesn't show up in the fecal? LOL !

Anyway - I tend to agree with you, I would think other snakes would have it, i would have it, they would've died by now. I did read one obscure article and my vet friend did say as well that it could manifest as a respiratory problem but I don't think this is the case.

Thanks for your input.
 
BigTattoo said:
Having read this whole thread and all the tests you have done coming back negative. With no real response to the treatments it makes me think allergies. It may not be the aspen. It could be any cleaning chemicals you may use in your home. Even air fresheners can cause symptoms like this.

When I had my shop and Febreeze first came on the market we had a number of customers who would have one or two of their pets come down with symptoms similar to what you're describing. Yet other pets in their homes were not affected. It turned out it was caused by the Febreeze. Once they stopped using it the symptoms went away. Just a thought but I would start looking at environmental and any new products you may have introduced into your home around the time this all started. It may be any number of things from air fresheners, fabric softeners, floor cleaners, even swiffers could be a possibility.
Click to expand...


You bring up a valid point about the air fresheners and the like - but I would tend to not think this is an allergy thing simply because of :

1) I have hardwood floors
2) I don't use a febreze electrical outlet thing
3) The snake-room is isolated by heavy doors from the rest of the home.
4) The only chemicals I use in the snake room are 10% bleach and KY Jelly, if that even counts.
5) None of the other snakes have gotten ill AT ALL - any other species. The only sick snakes are Anery corn snakes. Maybe it's an anery thing? LoL

However, as I sit here writing this..I am thinking to myself..

Every single one of these snakes was housed, at one point or another, for an extended period of time in a 5 rack system i bought from the company HerpEnclosures about 5 years ago. I had two other large females in this rack and they are problem free, however, they were in and out of it and didn't spend a whole lot of time in there.

This rack system did malfunction at one point right after we moved into the new house and some of the interior material melted. Luckily, it was in a pan that no snake was in and it melted some of the plastic and all so I just threw the whole pan out... Do you think it's possible that some of the vapors/chemicals released during this problem could still be present in that rack system and have caused harmful irritants to the snakes' lungs?

Wow. I never thought about this?
 
Was a Complete Blood Count ever taken? This would give a good indication of an actual "infection" if the white cell count was elevated.

Did the animal ever have a trachael wash? I know harald mentioned it briefly earlier...this test would not only check for parasites, but it would give you a much more "solid" sample to send to the lab.

And Xrays, to evaluate the lung density among other things, would be ideal...

keep us updated, i'm sorry I missed this thread earlier!
 
JordanAng420 said:
Was a Complete Blood Count ever taken? This would give a good indication of an actual "infection" if the white cell count was elevated.

Did the animal ever have a trachael wash? I know harald mentioned it briefly earlier...this test would not only check for parasites, but it would give you a much more "solid" sample to send to the lab.

And Xrays, to evaluate the lung density among other things, would be ideal...

keep us updated, i'm sorry I missed this thread earlier!
Click to expand...


My vet is not comfortable doing a tracheal wash. I can however look into getting one of their WBCs done when I take them in for x-rays. That's a good idea as well. I am not sure if their staff will be able to do it but I hope so.

The x-rays were suggested to me to look for lung damage and possible sinusitis that could mean allergies, so I guess lung density would be determined there also?

EDIT: Adding..Also..Doing a CBC that may come up normal, as well as x-rays that may show lung damage but no sinusitis may mean that I am correct in my theory about the horrible rack disaster causing this problem. The more I think about it the more dread fills my heart that that really may be the cause.
 
snakechaarmer said:
4) The only chemicals I use in the snake room are 10% bleach and KY Jelly, if that even counts.
Click to expand...

The bleach I understand why you use it. I am wondering about the KY jelly though. :D

You might be onto something with the residual plastics. The fumes from many plastics as they melt and burn can be pretty toxic. If any residue is still present on the rack it may still be offputting low levels of fumes.

Let us know what you find out from the x-rays and blood panel.
 
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