Cruelty at shows?

[Mysen]

Well not sure if this is the proper place for this post but consitering its part of the "buisness" side of things i am putting it here.

Now i may not be the most expieranced person when it comes to shows (Been to the fairly local ones, The Maryland reptile farm shows, Hamburg, And just yesterday my first MARS and have yet to personaly vend a show) But is it just a local thing or what? People seeming to almost be trying to be somewhat cruel and brazen with there animals! Because i dont hear anyone else saying anything about this so i dont know what to make of it, Which is why i am makeing this post. When i am looking to possibly buy something, Yes a nice display etc. might catch my eye a little but it all comes down to the quality of the animals and mainly for me, How the vendor acts being that will most likely reflect there husbandry etc...

I have somewhat recently gotten back into herps after a bit of downtime and now being older and a bit more serious about it this time around am i maybe just looking at things a different way then when i was a kid attending shows or were things not like this befor? On most shows info pages they state about humane cageing etc. Vets and such being on hand to inspect peoples animals and displays. And of course there are some vendors who have immaculate displays and personalitys which seems to reflect on how i see them talk about and handle there animals, Now i understand shows can be hectic dealing with people and dealing with the animals but some of the things i have seen lately really disturb me!

At the August 4th Hamburg show (I will not name the vendor/person unless its requested or comes to that) I am walking along browseing and see a nice table up ahead and go to check out what they have till i see the vendor FORCE FEEDING a juvenile BP appearently trying to show someone something(Couldnt hear what they were saying being i was still behind a crowd of people) I mean common! There is absolutely zero reason to be doing that.

At this most recent MARS show yesterday i saw on a table a tub roughly with the floorspace of a 32qt sterilite tub or less (But taller) which looked like it had been dipped in the bed of a lake and all the crustys were left to dry, Who knows what it actually was crusted on the tub. With count them FOUR! snakes, 3 Burmese pythons around most likely 4'+ (Was hard to judge given they were cramed ontop of eatch other but with about a baseballs thickness i think its a fairly accurate guess) Along with a carpet python of similar size in there with them! Once again, Common! No reason whatsoever to do something like that. If you dont have the table space to display them all then tough luck! Keep them humanely caged behind the table or buy a second table to acommidate your needs!

Lastly, Although if i nit picked or just walked around noteing things like i have discribed above chances are i would have more similar storys but in general i see many vendors just being careless/rough! As soon as someone asks a simple question about a certain animal its deli cup or display encloseure is quickly
open and the animal being pulled out, Sometimes forcefully if the animal has a tail around the rim of the cup etc. and thrown into the hands of the person looking weither they ask or not without any hand sanitizer being used befor or after (And people wonder how thing such as IBD get spread). Really, Do you think a genuine interest in buying an animal would be lost if the person doesnt have the animal in there hands a second after they ask about it? Or that people would really be more interested knowing anyone and everyone has had there hands all over your animals? Once again there is no real reason for this type of thing!

As i said befor i really dont know what to make of thease things, I am doubting even wanting to vend at shows once my projects come to that point seeing how some things are handled. I would say something to someone at the show but i dont know who to even say something to! As if i should even have to say something in the first place, Bottom line i am makeing this post to point this out and ask if others see the same things, Because to me its starting to look like a meat market not a place for people who love the animals...


Thanks for reading.

 

[Cat_72]

I would agree, the things you describe are not right. From my experience, I would say that they are the exception and not the norm, not that it makes them any better.

However, did you do anything about it? I mean, there are definitely rules and regulations to be followed at these shows, and most folks running a good show will do something about serious problems if you let them know. (I've never been to Hamburg, I cannot speak for that particular show, but in general...) But they are busy folks, and as you said, things can be very crowded and they can't see everything. If there's something that is obviously wrong with an animal, or the way one is is being displayed or treated, if everyone just shakes their head and makes a post about it on a forum later, how is that vendor going to get the message that his or her behavior is NOT acceptable? Maybe they aren't aware of certain rules, maybe they just don't think people care.....but if they aren't called on it at the time, they will likely keep on doing it.

Doing something at the time it's going on, whether it be talking to the vendor yourself or finding someone working at the show and reporting it to them is going to accomplish a lot more than complaining about it on a forum. You'll probably find a lot of folks that agree with you, but nothing can be DONE about it here.

 

[Seamus Haley]

noteing things like i have discribed above chances are i would have more similar storys but in general i see many vendors just being careless/rough! As soon as someone asks a simple question about a certain animal its deli cup or display encloseure is quickly
open and the animal being pulled out, Sometimes forcefully if the animal has a tail around the rim of the cup etc. and thrown into the hands of the person looking weither they ask or not without any hand sanitizer being used befor or after (And people wonder how thing such as IBD get spread). Really, Do you think a genuine interest in buying an animal would be lost if the person doesnt have the animal in there hands a second after they ask about it? Or that people would really be more interested knowing anyone and everyone has had there hands all over your animals? Once again there is no real reason for this type of thing!

The average buyer is more comfortable purchasing an animal after they have had a chance to directly inspect it. That means a hands on approach for most of them. While individuals who are particularly cautious would rather buy an animal that hasn't been handled by anyone other than the person who produced it and there are definite ways to enhance the purchase process that don't involve directly touching the animal in question... The risk of transmission of anything really nasty is minimal and the hands on approach is the one which produces the best sales numbers for many vendors. When looking at the risk, it's not the great evil you seem to be presenting it as.

Furthermore, those alchohol gels are basically useless. While something is going to be better than nothing... Industrial hospital strength burn out your sinuses just by walking past the room melt a hole through skin if it's applied undiluted kind of cleansers usually need to be left on waterproof surfaces for fifteen minutes or more before they've done their job. Given that things that powerful require that amount of time to kill pathenogens that are sitting on a sterile surface... do you really think ten seconds of hair gel with an iguana on the bottle is doing a damn thing?

 

[Mysen]

Yes i understand, From now on i will definately find someone to say something to, As far as the cageing and being rough with handleing i wasnt sure exactly how to go about saying something consitering as i said, I hadnt heard anyone say anything about things like this befor so i wasnt sure if it was somewhat the accepted normal (Thats why i made this post which was suppost to be more of a question/discussion but may have came off as a bit more as a rant heh)

 

[Mysen]

Must have posted while i was makeing my last reply, No i am not trying to make it out to a great evil or anything, I understand the risk is minimal but that does not mean its not possible and i agree hand sanitizer isnt going to 100% elimanate the risk but as you said, Anything helps and i doubt anyone would perfer an IBD infection over putting a little extra effort in to help provent it. That was mainly a side point though of animals often being placed right into peoples hands right away, It just adds uneeded stress on the animal in an already stressful situation and yes i also like to inspect an animal closely befor buying but i just think it looks like the gun gets jumped sometimes needlessly.

 

[geckogrl6]

Having just come from MARS myself, I do agree with you that a lot of animals are being handled a lot, probably overly so. I did see some vendors there who were very insistent and the sanitizing thing, and would jump in and squirt me ASAP if they saw me make a grab for an animal I was interested in. There is quite a lot of probably overly rough handling, but as was prev. mentioned, larger vendors know this increases sales significantly. I can't fault them too much for that. For a lot of these people, the bottom line often takes precedence over the long-term health of the animal. I kinda just figure that it's up to me as the buyer to avoid them, and take my business to a different vendor.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Anything helps and i doubt anyone would perfer an IBD infection over putting a little extra effort in to help provent it.

You seem to be under a signifigant misimpression about IBD. How it's transmitted, what can be done to prevent it and how common (uncommon) it actually is.

Alchohol gel is, truly... really... useless. It does next to nothing.

... can hypochondriacs transfer their disorder and apply the psychotic, unfounded fear to things other than their own health?

 

[Mysen]

Geckogrl6: I personaly didnt handle any animals at the MARS show being i didnt see anything i was interested in, But thats good that people were sanitizeing, I guess i just missed seeing thouse who were.


Seamus Haley: As far as i know theres no 100% on how IBD is transmitted, But as far as i know best guess is transmission by bodily fluid? (If i am wrong then sorry but thats what i have gathered from what i have read, So therefore i go from that) But either way, Be it IBD or anything under the rainbow i will take the useless alcohol gel over nothing.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Geckogrl6: I personaly didnt handle any animals at the MARS show being i didnt see anything i was interested in, But thats good that people were sanitizeing, I guess i just missed seeing thouse who were.


Seamus Haley: As far as i know theres no 100% on how IBD is transmitted, But as far as i know best guess is transmission by bodily fluid? (If i am wrong then sorry but thats what i have gathered from what i have read, So therefore i go from that) But either way, Be it IBD or anything under the rainbow i will take the useless alcohol gel over nothing.

From what i understand it is also transmitted through physical contact ( be it snake to snake or human to snake) , mites, transferable through uneaten food items given to another animal, uhhhm Anyone feel free to add on/correct me.

 

[Mysen]

Yeah Moo, Thats what i was kind of getting at, Hold the snake and its vent is toching you or it rubs its mouth along your hand which of course was in contact with some bodily fluids, Hold another and theres possible transmittion. Not to mention as you said mites and what not.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I've complained to show promoters about some vendors.

One comes to mind at the Lititz, PA show where we were vending once. The dirt bag wholesaler (whom we were stuck next to) was THROWING animals into dirty tanks, STEPPING ON THEM when they tried to get away and had very, very sickly imports. Did the show promoter care? Nope, they were friends and he paid for 4 tables. The promoter got his money, and that's all he was worried about.

 

[geckogrl6]

Yeah, that's kinda the feeling I get from some of these promoters and wholesalers. I actually sold some animals to a wholesaler, and watching them put the animals directly in a display tank. No quarantine, no questions for me about their health, etc. Having been a vendor once or twice at a small local show, I must say that my contacts with the promoter were very much focused on the $ aspect of things. That's why I kind of figured complaining to them about individual vendors would go nowhere. They pay the table fee, they get a table, end of story. It's kind of like, how they deal with their animals is their business, and often the larger tables are friends with the promoter, no doubt due to the fact that they are likely the biggest and most consistent table fee payor. I think it's generally just up to you to be careful about where you buy from. Sometimes when I see something really atrocious, I actually take one of their business cards from that table, and write myself a note on it about what I saw so that I remember not to buy there. There are some good vendors out there, though.

 

[hhmoore]

I did see some vendors there who were very insistent and the sanitizing thing, and would jump in and squirt me ASAP if they saw me make a grab for an animal I was interested in.

There are a couple things that I will be addressing in this thread, but I saw this yesterday and flagged it for first response. I am one of those vendors that will not allow people to handle my animals without first cleaning their hands with Chlorhexidine. I am also one that does not run my table as a petting zoo (No, kids, you cannot hold that snake, or that one, or that one...**note - this is referring to the groups of children that wander around without adult accompaniment; NOT a child that is there with a parent, asking questions and learning). But right on top of my list of show no-no's is somebody making a grab for one of my animals. You may have meant it differently, but a potential customer that takes it upon him/herself to open one of my displays to access an animal is told politely, but in no uncertain terms, that that is unacceptable to me. I am fairly certain that I lost at least 3 sales at the each of the shows I did last weekend because the "customer" didn't like being told that he/she had to wait for me to remove the snakes for them. (as a customer, I would never consider just opening a cage/display to access the animal within, unless I have been specifically granted permission to do so by the owner...what the heck is wrong with people????). I'll tell you something else - the loss of those sales didn't concern me in the least.

 

[SnakeEyesExotics]

I completely agree...
There's no way I would just reach in and take something without the owner's permission. I wouldn't want anyone just reaching in and grabbing my animals either!

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

i figure i might as well post what i think about the rough handling. though i do think that the dirty tub should not have been there and multiple snakes in one enclosure for only a show does not bother me so much under certain conditions and i will clarify below.

I havent been to a show, so i cant say certainly, but anyway, videos ive watched of shows online, some with people that are fairly well known. were somewhat rough. I dont think they were being so rough as to hurt the animals, just.... rougher than i would have liked to see. But i guess im really careful with my critters too, so maybe its just my point of view? from watching those videos, i think, that it seems mostly the norm though. Like i said, i havent been to a show yet, so i cant say certainly, i mean, it could just be those people who are rough and everyone else isnt. Ill have to see.


Dirty enclosures and, nasty anything at a show, to me... is unacceptable. Sure you cant control when a snake poops and... if they have to go. they're gonna go. just so long as its cleaned up, and everything looks clean. Including the animals. if its not. avoid them.

Im not so offended at the multiple animals in an enclosure though. so long as it is not a permanent living situation, and they have nice enclosures to go back to at home, or any new homes that may happen , i dont really think much of it. also, i should add that i did not like the different species together. I wouldnt mind seeing three burms, or three ball pythons or three of... one species. but several species, or two like you mentioned.. in one, Does bother me.

as for the handling and passing snakes around, the only thing i can really say is, its going to happen, and you cant prevent it. best thing you can do for yourself and any existing animals is quarantine when you buy a new animal, and or , only buy from tables that do not allow you to hold their animals.

The force feeding thing could have been a fluke thing that you saw, with someone who is in need of the procedure for an animal they have at home? i cannot really say, but that, in my own opinion, does not seem to be anything that would upset me unless the person doing it was highly inexperienced and was visibly having issues trying to use the technique.

other than that... most everyone else pretty much said anything else that needed to be said. *shrug*

 

[hhmoore]

If you dont have the table space to display them all then tough luck! Keep them humanely caged behind the table or buy a second table to acommidate your needs!

I agree that the pile of snakes is unappealing...and as a buyer would be inclined to just walk on by - even if there was a snake I was looking for in that pile.
It is not always an issue of table space...sometimes suitable displays for larger animals are hard to come by. Recently, I did a couple of shows, and wanted to bring along a couple of larger animals that definitely wouldn't fit into my acrylic displays. I despise tanks, and I considered bringing them in Sterilite containers...but they don't offer much of a view of what is inside. A night before the show trip to WalMart solved my problem. A small storage tower: almost the size of a 28 qt tub, better visibility than Sterilite, 3 units high, and self contained (no need to worry about a snake popping the top off). Also, a second table, while a nice thought is not always feasible. Not only does it double the expense, it is also nearly impossible to service 2 tables without more bringing along more people. Not a problem for some operations, but some people can barely get help for a few hours (or even long enough to let them wander the show and use the restroom), let alone get another person or two to commit to a full day.


On the subjects of hand sanitizing, IBD, and excessive handling. I agree with Seamus that the alcohol based hand cleaners are not designed to prevent serious disease transmission...their primary function at shows is to reduce the risk of the show-goers (from salmonella, and similar). The OP specifically mentioned IBD, and, as I mentioned in chat the night this was posted, one really needs but to consider the nature of IBD to realize that the only way to protect your snakes from IBD is to leave them home (better yet, you stay home, too). It has been shown that even exemplary quarantine practices are not enough to prevent the spread of IBD.
As has been noted, in many, if not most, cases, people want to personally inspect animals before purchase. It's a natural thing...even if the people don't really know much about reptiles. If we are going to buy something that is right in front of us, we want to hold it to look it over. Sometimes it is to see how it responds to handling, sometimes to get a clearer look, to assess body weight or muscle tone, check for external parasites, verify sex...whatever. If somebody is asking about a specific snake, I won't refuse to let them hold it (after washing with Chlorhexidene, of course)...but I don't partake of the "here, check it out" approach, either. If I thought I could get away without allowing anybody to handle my animals before a purchase, I would probably do it...maybe that's just me, though.

 

[AncientDNA]

More on alcohol

As stated several times already...
Those alcohol-based cleaners are, at best, a quick & dirty, first-line defense and should not be considered useful for any serious disinfecting.
60% - 80% alcohol content is required for maximum effect. I've never used them. Do they usually have that kind of alcohol concentration?
Anyway, they work(or are supposed to work) by gaining entry thru the cell wall/membrane and denaturing intracellular proteins in bacteria and some fungi, but not viruses, spores(fungal or bacterial) or bacteria that exist in bio-films or aggregates.

 

[Tim Cole]

Not all show promoters are like this...

I put on 3 shows a year. I do not sell animals at my show. This allows me to concentrate on checking out the vendors animals and such for problems. I screen any new vendors the best I can. The BOI has been a very useful tool for me and I have refused a couple vendors due to posts here or due to their reputations. I have even gone as far to call show promoters in other states to check on vendors.

We encourage all vendors to use alcohol gel and to keep handling to a minimum.
This cuts down on stress and reduces the possibility of any unwanted transmissions.

Quality shows are appreciated both by the vendors and the public.

 

[Jenns]

Just an FYI on hand gels

From The CDC web site, I am an MLA and we have been told that hand gel's are in some instances more effective than hand washing. I just thought that this was interesting, and may be of some value to someone


The majority of alcohol-based hand antiseptics contain either isopropanol, ethanol, n-propanol, or a combination of two of these products. Although n-propanol has been used in alcohol-based hand rubs in parts of Europe for many years, it is not listed in TFM as an approved active agent for HCW handwashes or surgical hand-scrub preparations in the United States. The majority of studies of alcohols have evaluated individual alcohols in varying concentrations. Other studies have focused on combinations of two alcohols or alcohol solutions containing limited amounts of hexachlorophene, quaternary ammonium compounds, povidone-iodine, triclosan, or chlorhexidine gluconate (61,93,100--119).

The antimicrobial activity of alcohols can be attributed to their ability to denature proteins (120). Alcohol solutions containing 60%--95% alcohol are most effective, and higher concentrations are less potent (120--122) because proteins are not denatured easily in the absence of water (120). The alcohol content of solutions may be expressed as percent by weight (w/w), which is not affected by temperature or other variables, or as percent by volume (vol/vol), which can be affected by temperature, specific gravity, and reaction concentration (123). For example, 70% alcohol by weight is equivalent to 76.8% by volume if prepared at 15ºC, or 80.5% if prepared at 25ºC (123). Alcohol concentrations in antiseptic hand rubs are often expressed as percent by volume (19).

Alcohols have excellent in vitro germicidal activity against gram-positive and gram-negative vegetative bacteria, including multidrug-resistant pathogens (e.g., MRSA and VRE), Mycobacterium tuberculosis, and various fungi (120--122,124--129). Certain enveloped (lipophilic) viruses (e.g., herpes simplex virus, human immunodeficiency virus [HIV], influenza virus, respiratory syncytial virus, and vaccinia virus) are susceptible to alcohols when tested in vitro (120,130,131) (Table 1). Hepatitis B virus is an enveloped virus that is somewhat less susceptible but is killed by 60%--70% alcohol; hepatitis C virus also is likely killed by this percentage of alcohol (132). In a porcine tissue carrier model used to study antiseptic activity, 70% ethanol and 70% isopropanol were found to reduce titers of an enveloped bacteriophage more effectively than an antimicrobial soap containing 4% chlorhexidine gluconate (133). Despite its effectiveness against these organisms, alcohols have very poor activity against bacterial spores, protozoan oocysts, and certain nonenveloped (nonlipophilic) viruses.

Numerous studies have documented the in vivo antimicrobial activity of alcohols. Alcohols effectively reduce bacterial counts on the hands (14,121,125,134). Typically, log reductions of the release of test bacteria from artificially contaminated hands average 3.5 log10 after a 30-second application and 4.0--5.0 log10 after a 1-minute application (1). In 1994, the FDA TFM classified ethanol 60%--95% as a Category I agent (i.e., generally safe and effective for use in antiseptic handwash or HCW hand-wash products) (19). Although TFM placed isopropanol 70%--91.3% in category IIIE (i.e., insufficient data to classify as effective), 60% isopropanol has subsequently been adopted in Europe as the reference standard against which alcohol-based hand-rub products are compared (79). Alcohols are rapidly germicidal when applied to the skin, but they have no appreciable persistent (i.e., residual) activity. However, regrowth of bacteria on the skin occurs slowly after use of alcohol-based hand antiseptics, presumably because of the sublethal effect alcohols have on some of the skin bacteria (135,136). Addition of chlorhexidine, quaternary ammonium compounds, octenidine, or triclosan to alcohol-based solutions can result in persistent activity (1).

Alcohols, when used in concentrations present in alcohol-based hand rubs, also have in vivo activity against several nonenveloped viruses (Table 2). For example, 70% isopropanol and 70% ethanol are more effective than medicated soap or nonmedicated soap in reducing rotavirus titers on fingerpads (137,138). A more recent study using the same test methods evaluated a commercially available product containing 60% ethanol and found that the product reduced the infectivity titers of three nonenveloped viruses (i.e., rotavirus, adenovirus, and rhinovirus) by >3 logs (81). Other nonenveloped viruses such as hepatitis A and enteroviruses (e.g., poliovirus) may require 70%--80% alcohol to be reliably inactivated (82,139). However, both 70% ethanol and a 62% ethanol foam product with emollients reduced hepatitis A virus titers on whole hands or fingertips more than nonmedicated soap; both were equally as effective as antimicrobial soap containing 4% chlorhexidine gluconate in reducing reduced viral counts on hands (140). In the same study, both 70% ethanol and the 62% ethanol foam product demonstrated greater virucidal activity against poliovirus than either non-antimicrobial soap or a 4% chlorhexidine gluconate-containing soap (140). However, depending on the alcohol concentration, the amount of time that hands are exposed to the alcohol, and viral variant, alcohol may not be effective against hepatitis A and other nonlipophilic viruses. The inactivation of nonenveloped viruses is influenced by temperature, disinfectant-virus volume ratio, and protein load (141). Ethanol has greater activity against viruses than isopropanol. Further in vitro and in vivo studies of both alcohol-based formulations and antimicrobial soaps are warranted to establish the minimal level of virucidal activity that is required to interrupt direct contact transmission of viruses in health-care settings.

Alcohols are not appropriate for use when hands are visibly dirty or contaminated with proteinaceous materials. However, when relatively small amounts of proteinaceous material (e.g., blood) are present, ethanol and isopropanol may reduce viable bacterial counts on hands more than plain soap or antimicrobial soap (142).

Alcohol can prevent the transfer of health-care--associated pathogens (25,63,64). In one study, gram-negative bacilli were transferred from a colonized patient's skin to a piece of catheter material via the hands of nurses in only 17% of experiments after antiseptic hand rub with an alcohol-based hand rinse (25). In contrast, transfer of the organisms occurred in 92% of experiments after handwashing with plain soap and water. This experimental model indicates that when the hands of HCWs are heavily contaminated, an antiseptic hand rub using an alcohol-based rinse can prevent pathogen transmission more effectively than can handwashing with plain soap and water.

Alcohol-based products are more effective for standard handwashing or hand antisepsis by HCWs than soap or antimicrobial soaps (Table 3) (25,53,61,93,106--112,119,143--152). In all but two of the trials that compared alcohol-based solutions with antimicrobial soaps or detergents, alcohol reduced bacterial counts on hands more than washing hands with soaps or detergents containing hexachlorophene, povidone-iodine, 4% chlorhexidine, or triclosan. In studies examining antimicrobial-resistant organisms, alcohol-based products reduced the number of multidrug-resistant pathogens recovered from the hands of HCWs more effectively than did handwashing with soap and water (153--155).

Alcohols are effective for preoperative cleaning of the hands of surgical personnel (1,101,104,113--119,135,143,147,156--159) (Tables 4 and 5). In multiple studies, bacterial counts on the hands were determined immediately after using the product and again 1--3 hours later; the delayed testing was performed to determine if regrowth of bacteria on the hands is inhibited during operative procedures. Alcohol-based solutions were more effective than washing hands with plain soap in all studies, and they reduced bacterial counts on the hands more than antimicrobial soaps or detergents in the majority of experiments (101,104,113--119,135,143,147,157--159 ). In addition, the majority of alcohol-based preparations were more effective than povidone-iodine or chlorhexidine.

The efficacy of alcohol-based hand-hygiene products is affected by several factors, including the type of alcohol used, concentration of alcohol, contact time, volume of alcohol used, and whether the hands are wet when the alcohol is applied. Applying small volumes (i.e., 0.2--0.5 mL) of alcohol to the hands is not more effective than washing hands with plain soap and water (63,64). One study documented that 1 mL of alcohol was substantially less effective than 3 mL (91). The ideal volume of product to apply to the hands is not known and may vary for different formulations. However, if hands feel dry after rubbing hands together for 10--15 seconds, an insufficient volume of product likely was applied. Because alcohol-impregnated towelettes contain a limited amount of alcohol, their effectiveness is comparable to that of soap and water (63,160,161).

 

[hhmoore]

I work in healthcare, and have, over the years, participated in a number of handwash studies. While some products are more effective than others, what it usually boils down to is technique + time...that is to say rubbing enough to create sufficient friction to disrupt/remove contaminants, and spending enough time doing it. The same is true for the various alcohol based hand cleaners, as noted in the above article:

However, if hands feel dry after rubbing hands together for 10--15 seconds, an insufficient volume of product likely was applied

BUT - have you ever watched most people use the stuff?