Damian Macioce Selling TSE Hets -- You Decide

[E2MacPets]

I don't want to come to anyone's defense regarding anything relating to TSE... I wasn't involved with these hets, but I lost my leopard gecko collection to Chris.


Taking Damian at face value...
As someone conducting business, even if it is a hobby, what is Damian's responsibility to

a) keep tabs on the reputation of someone he has purchased from
b) keep tabs on the whereabout of someone he has sold to
c) take initiative to do both and be proactive to notify customers and issue refunds

 

[Mike P.]

I think bringing in his record keeping in reference to tax purposes, and dragging his phone number into this, Is in fact getting off topic and has no business here - He has no obligation to answer to that to Anyone here on this forum whatsoever period, and that was way out of line and off-topic to drag into this period - He can answer to the appropriate parties for that than...

Keep it at the topic at hand and don't try to stir up more stuff that is absolutely no ones fucking business other than his...

 

[Jim O]

I don't want to come to anyone's defense regarding anything relating to TSE... I wasn't involved with these hets, but I lost my leopard gecko collection to Chris.


Taking Damian at face value...
As someone conducting business, even if it is a hobby, what is Damian's responsibility to

a) keep tabs on the reputation of someone he has purchased from
b) keep tabs on the whereabout of someone he has sold to
c) take initiative to do both and be proactive to notify customers and issue refunds

Good question but this is mostly a moot point, because Damian knew about Chris Johnson/TSE (a), and he knew that he had sold "hets" obtained from him. If he had bothered to look for the customer back in 2006 when this all was transpiring and before his computer crash it would have been likely that he could have been found (b). Add to that the fact that Damian has now stepped up and accepted responsibility (c).

My issue is that it took him being reminded publicly of his obligation for him to do anything about it.

Does all of this make him a bad guy? Maybe, but probably not. More that with a little peer pressure he has seen that he has an obligation. Seen in the broad picture I think a really honorable man would have and could have acted differently. But there are all grades of good and bad.

 

[E2MacPets]

Are we expecting too much though?

I fully understand the need to police this hobby, but doesn't the buyer who is in possession of paperwork documenting the origin of the animals have to take this responsibility on their shoulders as well?

If Damian made on honest deal at the time of sale, I don't know that there was anything more Damian had a responsibility to do. Sure, we all agree it would be the honorable thing to do, but necessary? Probably not.

If the buyer purchased the animals through an ad on fauna they had just as much of a capability of discovering the issue of the fake hets and just as much responsibility for contacting Damian themselves.

 

[Seamus Haley]

If Damian made on honest deal at the time of sale, I don't know that there was anything more Damian had a responsibility to do. Sure, we all agree it would be the honorable thing to do, but necessary? Probably not.

Going back a bit to your hypotheticals too- there are levels of obligation that are directly related to knowledge.

Reselling the hets as hets at a time prior to knowing there was a likely issue isn't a bad guy move.

And the seller does not have a responsibility to stay hyper-aware of events that occur with their suppliers or buyers.

However, IF a seller is aware of a situation where they retrospectively misrepresented an animal, I believe that that have a clear cut ethical obligation to raise and address the issue to the best of their abilities and the satisfaction of their buyers.

While I wouldn't attach a bad guy label to a resale situation if they were unaware of it, when no intent or knowledge of the misrepresentation was present, I would attach it to someone who is aware of it and does nothing.

 

[E2MacPets]

I'm playing devils advocate at this point more than anything, because this is certainly an interesting ethical dilema.

Again, I don't know even at the point that Damian found out that he had sold fake hets that by doing nothing he would be a bad guy. Less than honorable, perhaps.
The buyer knew about fauna and had the paperwork from TSE. The buyer was just as capable of contacting Damian.

I'm just am not ready to crucify Damian for his not wanting to take the financial hit. If we take him at his word then he got scammed by Chris too. And he claims to do this as hobby not a business, so taking the financial hit now is not something that can be written off as the cost of running a business.

How long did he have the animals for? He turned around and sold the animals as accurately represented as they had been presented to him which is as you'd expect from a reputable seller. The buyer knows about fauna and has the TSE paperwork, for all we know the buyer did read the original TSE thread and just wrote this off as a loss themselves.

I'm glad that Damian is now taking action, it is definitely a good decision on his part, regardless of the motivation.

I'd be interested to hear from the buyer when all is said and done.

 

[Cat_72]

While I wouldn't attach a bad guy label to a resale situation if they were unaware of it, when no intent or knowledge of the misrepresentation was present, I would attach it to someone who is aware of it and does nothing.

VERY well said, Seamus.

The buyer knew about fauna and had the paperwork from TSE. The buyer was just as capable of contacting Damian.

Believe it or not, Steven, there are still a lot of folks out there who have purchased TSE hets that still do not know about the whole scam. I have been contacted as recently as about a month ago (I'd have to look back in my email for the exact date, but that's close) by someone that had just, purely by chance, stumbled on the TSE thread and now realized that their "hets" were nothing but normals.

And just because folks bought the animals through an ad here, it doesn't mean that they do anything while here other than peruse the classifieds and move on, they very well may never even paid any attention to the BOI. Just because the buyer was "capable of contacting Damian", why would they if they have no idea what has gone on? Was Damian too not "capable of contacting the buyers"? He knew what was going on, they very well may not.

I'm just am not ready to crucify Damian for his not wanting to take the financial hit.

Taking "financial hits" are a known risk when doing business. Just because he perhaps can't afford to take the hit, doesn't make it right to ignore what has happened....do you suppose that his not wanting that hit makes it right for the buyers of those "hets" to be the ones to take the hit?

I'm glad that Damian appears to be trying to make things right at this point, but I sure wish he would have done it without this thread having to have ever begun.

 

[critical bill]

hey can you guys help me get an account on this classy site. Bet a guy can meet some great people, maybe make some friends and do a little business on a great site like this.
for all the evils could you find an ignorant thread like this on that other site?

Hey look....its Bud Meirkeys brother.

 

[E2MacPets]

Cathy... my point about not crucifying him for perhaps not wanting to take a financial hit was that he claims to be a hobbyist, not a businessman. If a business was not willing to stand behind their products to the extent of issuing a full refund, I would be willing to label them as bad guys. I don't necessarily think I'd hold a hobbyist to the same expectation, we don't know his financial circumstances. Sure it would be honorable, but I don't think I'd expect it.

I don't want to make excuses or defend Damian... I just don't know if we are holding him to a higher moral code than is reasonable. As I said before, I'm glad at this point he's doing the honorable thing, regardless.

 

[shrap]

Simply put, if I sold someone hets that turned out not to be hets, whatever the circumstances, I would give them their money back. Simply because it is the right thing to do. For a business or a hobbyist.

 

[ToshaMc]

What it comes down to is whether or not there was an absolute obligation for him or anyone that resold the hets prior to the fallout to contact the customer and if so at what point and also what if any compensation should be made.

If the community can't come to a unanimous decision about the obligation then you can't exactly crucify the guy. Obviously there are different thoughts on the subject.

I get that Chris screwed over a bunch of people - I get that this is a hot button issue for a lot of people - lets keep our anger and frustration focused on Chris and not fly off the handle on every little bit of fall out in this regard. Lets try to muddle through this mess civilly.

 

[Cat_72]

Simply put, if I sold someone hets that turned out not to be hets, whatever the circumstances, I would give them their money back. Simply because it is the right thing to do. For a business or a hobbyist.

Exactly.

I consider myself a hobbyist, and my ethics would mandate that I, at the very least, made every effort to contact the buyers, and I would also offer to give them a refund or replace the animals.

If a business was not willing to stand behind their products to the extent of issuing a full refund, I would be willing to label them as bad guys. I don't necessarily think I'd hold a hobbyist to the same expectation, we don't know his financial circumstances. Sure it would be honorable, but I don't think I'd expect it.

I don't know why we should expect a hobbyist to be held to any lesser standard of ethics than a business owner. If anything, I would almost expect that standard to be higher, because to me that hints that they are in the hobby for the right reasons, not "just" to make a profit. Even held to the same standard.....to know what you have sold is not what you sold it as, and to not do anything about it is wrong IMO.

While Damian trying to locate to buyers now is finally doing the right thing, I don't know that I would call it "honorable", as it took this thread to get him to do it. I have not seen anyone "crucifying" him, but we have called him out for what has taken place. You've been around here (off and on) long enough to recognize a real BOI crucifixion, and this ain't it.

I have hope that Damian can turn this around and make things right.

 

[dmasio]

Wow you know the more I read this the more angry I get. You people areputting me in a bad light for no reason now that I cant find how to contact this person its going to get worse. But by some of your logic I would think that fauna & Kingsnake would also be liable for helping Chris sell off his fake hets. You people keep throwing around bad guy this and bad guy that let anybody come forth who feels wronged by me if not then its done. I bought them with photo ID and paperwork as a matter of fact the paperwork stated something to the effect that "if the animal is sold to someone else then the genetics are void" or something like that. And believe me let me find out that any of you have so much as farted in church I will pt a thread up on you and you will be the next to be crucified. I will not be skewer because some lonely people need friendship so they get on here to gang together to blast someone that has done no wrong. If the person will contact me then I will make it right but as far as calling my memory or my practices into question as much as I hate to say it I don't want you few that have lobbied against me to purchase anything from me. I'm not a big breeder I had I think 15 clutches this year maybe 20 but God Damn this is ridiculous to defend myself for do nothing wrong wow holy shit get a life people............

 

[snake5007]

I farted in church. It echoed all round the place and i had to apologize. Just like you should try to make this situation right if possible.

 

[hhmoore]

Damian,
The problem I have is that you, and some others here, seem to want to differentiate between what should be expected of a hobbyist vs a business. You took great efforts to clarify that you are just a hobbyist, (presumably due to the tax question), but you have maintained a website for at least two years...albeit without recent updates. On the homepage of said site, you refer to your "business". You use a fictitious name, Stronghold Reptiles, for your website, and include it in your signature. You advertise regularly, under your personal name, which would seem to indicate that you have not filed a DBA (and therefore are purposely ducking taxation). You state you had 15-20 clutches this year, so you produced a fair number of babies...the sale of which definitely puts you into business category. Further, you stated that you have sold animals a few weeks after obtaining them - call that what you will (buying/selling, flipping, jobbing, resaling, whatever).
I really don't care about a lot of the petty BS - but if you are going to conduct yourself as a business, be legit about it.

You'll notice that I have not addressed the issue of the TSE hets. That was intentional. You will do what you will do...but don't offer up lame excuses like this is just a hobby for me.

 

[dmasio]

LMAO Then be care I thought perfect people didn't do those type of things you maybe hurting someone and need to go door to door and make it right. But seriously I apologized and I know I'm not going to please you God like people and for that I'm not sorry I will have to let this situation go and if and when I hope you guys see I'm not a bad person you will change your tone.....

 

[dmasio]

Harold your right I havent filed a DBA not for the purposes of dodging the IRS but I feel I dont do it a business and for that reason I advertise under my own name with the Stronghold title attached to it. And Im not sure what you mean lumping me in with others that dont want to conduct myself like a business because its only a hobby I dont remember saying that and any animal I produce I stand behind 100% and in this case even the animals I didnt produce. I dont sell these animals to pay my mortgage or any bills I use it to buy other animals or to go on vacation, I use my paycheck that I get on a bi-weekly basis as a beer delivery driver for my bills. So any person that makes money OTHER than their 9-5 should have a DBA (which I dont know what a DBA is Im sorry) for clothes they knit and sell, or how about the person that buys a few baseball cards here and there and turns them they should have to pay taxes for that, or the people that have yard or garage sales should they pay taxes on those things c'mon man that doesnt hold water with me. As much as I would love to have a big business like the Barkers, or Brian Barcykz or Kevin from NERD its not a reality. So you tell me where I said I dont hold myself to the standards of a business I pay my taxes on a bi-weekly basis and for the most part most of what I produced this year went out in trades for other animals that I wanted or I held back females that I wanted to raise up. Also sorry if Im all over the place I type how I think if something comes to mind then I type it or I may forget it. LOL.....

 

[Casey Hulse]

Would it be reasonable for Damian to provide a refund right now, because some of TSE's hets have been proven to be fake? Is it possible that Chris was legit for a time, and then got greedy?
I know I purchased a "het" from someone, and it failed to produce after 2 breedings (1 to a visual) and 16 eggs, but this person has sold real hets as well (david van houten).
What would Damians financial responsibility be? The purchase price? The rats the animal has eaten? Reimbursement for the hrs. of care required? I think in the end, that as long as Damian satisfies his customers 100% that is what is important.

 

[dmasio]

Trust me Casey if I can find the person the situation will be dealt with to their satisfaction but thats not the point here now, it now seems that since I havent filed a DBA Im a tax evading crook, I dont update my website so Im a fradulant website operator, I sold animals that I thought were what they were sold to me as that makes me a theif if I have forgotten anything people please let me know. I think the fact that I keep trying to respond to these post shows that I am trying to answer any questions and not passing the buck off on anybody. If someone want to call so we can discuss this thats fine. Today is my day off but Tuesday-Saturday I work from 3am eastern time to about 6pm and if you dont answer someones accusations right away then your guilty so please feel free to voice your opinion to me personally it will be alot easier on the phone. 614-607-0428.....

 

[hhmoore]

So any person that makes money OTHER than their 9-5 should have a DBA (which I dont know what a DBA is Im sorry) for clothes they knit and sell, or how about the person that buys a few baseball cards here and there and turns them they should have to pay taxes for that, or the people that have yard or garage sales should they pay taxes on those things c'mon man that doesnt hold water with me.

Damian,
Regardless of whether that holds water with you, or not, that is the law. I cannot speak about the guidelines and limits in your particular area - they vary from State to State (and, yes, in many areas, if one holds more than a certain number of garage/yard sales annually, or they generate more than a specific dollar amount, the proceeds are taxable). You are not producing 10-15 snakes, you are 15-20 litters/clutches and selling the babies. BTW, it doesn't matter WHAT you use the money for...that argument is simply foolish.

Leaving that subject (it really was a side issue), and moving on to your other question - You may not have commented on the expectations you should be subject to (I don't recall, and don't have the time or desire to go back and look), you simply went out of your way make it clear that you are a hobbyist, not a business. A few other people took up the discussion about the differences in what one might expect.


Jim O (and others):
Just curious, do you plan on starting threads about everybody you find has sold TSE hets? And holding them to the same expectations? Or was this thread largely in response to Damian's involvement in another thread?