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Damian Macioce Selling TSE Hets -- You Decide

Since this is about hets and responsibility I have a question.

Say you recieved a 100% het animal in a deal to make up for market turndowns. This animal had accompanying paperwork (photo ID, breeders info, etc) and you then sold said animal. I realize you would now take over responsibility for the genetics since you sold it as such. Now, say the buyer in turn sold said animal to another individual.

When does your responsibility regarding the genetics end?
 
Casey Hulse said:
Would it be reasonable for Damian to provide a refund right now, because some of TSE's hets have been proven to be fake? Is it possible that Chris was legit for a time, and then got greedy?
I know I purchased a "het" from someone, and it failed to produce after 2 breedings (1 to a visual) and 16 eggs, but this person has sold real hets as well (david van houten).
What would Damians financial responsibility be? The purchase price? The rats the animal has eaten? Reimbursement for the hrs. of care required? I think in the end, that as long as Damian satisfies his customers 100% that is what is important.

Very well said Casey! It's easy to play monopoly with other people's money and livelihood. Furthermore, if one throws suspicions around on each and every person the chances of outing a "true bad guy" do not increase. Much to the contrary we numb our senses to the point of not being able to recognize a bad guy standing right in front of our noses once he/she finally shows up. After all, they are all potential bad guys.

You don't need to steal possesions to be a bad guy. In fact there's a "new breed" of bad guys running rampant among us. They don't stick to the traditional definition as they don't steal tangible things that can be purchased or sold. They "only" steal intangibles such as dignity, self worth, and they denigrate people at will. They don't limit themselves to the "traditional" bad guys but to anyone that doesn't think as they do.

Their train of thought: "I'm great thus I have "great thoughts"; if this other individual doesn't agree with "my great thoughts" then "he is not great"; in fact he is a scammer in the making; I need to stop him now!

These individuals just do it for the fun of it and for their self-empowerment.

Enough rambling already.

:angry:
 
Hey Damien, look at it this way.. All of this free advertising is really good for business... Allot of people who do read this are still buying balls from me... FREE ADVERTISING, it works... Thanks BOI...


Wyatt
 
Well all I'm saying is according to some I should cover the animals regardless if I produced them or not I didn't originally think that but it seems that some of these holier than thou think so, so I will step up and take care of it. But now its spawned a whole new issue of bullshit like the heavenly father Harald Moore states now that I'm a fugitive from the IRS for not claiming the few animals I have sold who is another ambulance chaser it seems to me. He had nothing to do with that but if he wants I will show you something from his Terms Of Service page. As he states in his TOS "All animals will be outwardly healthy and free of externally parasites" well what if they had an internal parasite in your possesion that had a long incubation period and it didn't manifest itself until a few days after the stress of shipping and being in a new enviorment made it apparent, what would you do then Mr. Moore? Well from the looks of it his TOS says "Since he cannot control conditions after they are out of his care then he will only guarantee it for 48 hours" so if it doesn't manifest itself for lets say 4-5 days the buyer is out of luck. But don't worry it also says he has the last say in the matter.
HHHmmmmm that sounds like the TSE het issue was found out looonnnnggg after 48 hours of the sale and was defiantly out of my control but I'm still man enough to cover it. So please don't don't get another thread started for no reason I'm not trying to get another person against me but you made your mind up before you posted but I do have to say thanks for asking the question if a thread will be started about everyone that has been found out that sold TSE hets........
Harald Moore TOS
hhmooretos.jpg
 
SPJ said:
Since this is about hets and responsibility I have a question.

Say you recieved a 100% het animal in a deal to make up for market turndowns. This animal had accompanying paperwork (photo ID, breeders info, etc) and you then sold said animal. I realize you would now take over responsibility for the genetics since you sold it as such. Now, say the buyer in turn sold said animal to another individual.

When does your responsibility regarding the genetics end?

It doesn't.

The responsibility of the individual seller only goes as far as addressing the issue with the person they sold the animal directly to, but their responsibility to that person does not end. Their responsibility does not extend any further than their direct buyer though; if someone flipped the animal to a third or fourth customer and it can be reasonabally proven that the genetics were misrepresented, each individual buyer and seller down the chain have an obligation to the individuals they did business with directly.

Genetics are not a muteable trait, they do not change past the point of egg fertalization. Any statements made regarding the genetics of an animal, if truthful, will be truthful for that animal's entire life. Any statements made regarding the genetics of the animal that are inaccurate will be inaccurate for the animal's entire life.

When unintentional misrepresentation occurs, an honest dealer will actively work to correct the situation. They will inform their customer(s) of the error and work with them to find an appropriate solution. Failing to do so with the knowledge that an animal was (or is highly likely to have been) misrepresented is a choice- and in making the choice to stay silent, the dealer is perpetuating fraud and theft.
 
dmasio said:
Well all I'm saying is according to some I should cover the animals regardless if I produced them or not I didn't originally think that but it seems that some of these holier than thou think so, so I will step up and take care of it.

It's good that you'll take care of it.

The continued argument that you shouldn't have to is what's going to keep people looking for more dirt.

I think everyone realizes that you bought and sold the animals in good faith, trusting the dealer you were buying them from to represent them honestly and that, at the time of sale, you had no reason to suspect the animals were anything other than what you sold them as.

However you now know that many of the animals sold by TSE as hets are not hets. That means that you lied to your buyer about the genetics of your animals and you recieved money based on the value of a trait the animals did not have. Just because [/b]you[/b] were mislead by a shady dealer it does not make it acceptable or right for you to take and keep someone else's money that they paid you for an animal that you misrepresented to them at the time of sale. You have a legitimate claim against TSE but that doesn't mean you should screw your buyers the same way you were screwed. They paid you for an animal posessing certain traits, trusting your reputation and you failed to deliver what you promised. You owe them.
 
Seamus Haley said:
When unintentional misrepresentation occurs, an honest dealer will actively work to correct the situation. They will inform their customer(s) of the error and work with them to find an appropriate solution. Failing to do so with the knowledge that an animal was (or is highly likely to have been) misrepresented is a choice- and in making the choice to stay silent, the dealer is perpetuating fraud and theft.

Another excellent post, Seamus.

Damian, Harald also states that he may extend that guarantee period if he is notified of a problem within the 48 hour time frame.....and I have no doubt that if there were a problem with an animal, that was something shown to have been present when it left his posession, he would make it right with the buyer. Harald is kind of crazy (read: ethical) that way.

However, that guarantee has nothing to do with genetics. If an animal is sold as a het, there is no time frame to it...it either is what it was sold as, or it isn't. 48 hours....or 48 weeks, that isn't going to change their genetics.

And actually.....I do believe I would start a thread on another person who had sold TSE hets, and never even made an effort to contact the buyer after finding out that in all likelyhood, they are not hets. Jim didn't label you a "bad guy" in the title, he simply said, "You decide", leaving it up to the reader. It is the actions from there that let the reader make their decision....as I said, I do believe you will try to make this right, but don't understand why we should treat someone who is "just a hobbiest" any differently than someone who calls it a business. Ethics are ethics, in my book.
 
I think you ARE doing the right thing AS LONG AS you are truly trying to locate who you sold the het(s) to, and do try to make it right.

Attacking Harold for his TOS is way out of line. Many have been scammed by buys as well of sellers in this industry and is the main reason to have a TOS that protect us from those scammers.

Oh btw, DBA is "Doing Business As" also known as a "Fictitious Name". A must have for a sole proprietor and even a corporation that is using another name for whatever reason other than their corporate name.
 
Well Seamus you obviously havent read the whole thread the animals were not sold to the next person with my knowledge of them being normals so I will make it right and I'm not dogding that. And I dont know that they arent true hets, although I wouldnt hold my breathe that they are until I'm contacted since I cant remember who they went to. So if you want to also start in thats fine as well. But a lie is to knowingly mislead someone which wasnt the case if you would have read the entire thread you would see that. So if thats me being a bad guy then the hell with it I'm a bad guy.......
 
dmasio said:
Well Seamus you obviously havent read the whole thread the animals were not sold to the next person with my knowledge of them being normals so I will make it right and I'm not dogding that. And I dont know that they arent true hets, although I wouldnt hold my breathe that they are until I'm contacted since I cant remember who they went to. So if you want to also start in thats fine as well. But a lie is to knowingly mislead someone which wasnt the case if you would have read the entire thread you would see that. So if thats me being a bad guy then the hell with it I'm a bad guy.......

Damian, Seamus said:

at the time of sale, you had no reason to suspect the animals were anything other than what you sold them as.

He acknowledges that you had no way of knowing, at the time of sale, that they were not hets.

Perhaps you need to slow down (yes, I understand you are upset....) and read the words written yourself, and take a deep breath before responding.
 
Cathy you are correct there is no reason that we as hobbiest shouldnt be held to the same ethics and thats not what Im talking about here. The fact that if I can or the person I bought them from still has them and will contact me that situation will be handled. The thing certain words like liar, and stole and whatnot are being thrown around which cant be farther from the truth.
Felicia thanks for saying something nice but PLEASE be careful in doing so you maybe the next victim in a which hunt for people with nothing but time on their hands. And also thanks for informing me what the DBA meant. Im not personally attacking Harald Im just stating what came from his site if the situation is out of his hands then hes not dealing with it unless he deems it right well he needs to step back and look at the entire situation. It was out of my control that these are more than likely not hets and Im making the final decision to rectify the problem. Him chiming in with his matters of taxes and other things is a moot point and has nothing what-so-ever to do with the TSE hets. Also I have been scammed before on 2 seperat occasions if you look at my warning points all except the most recent points were for cursing about the guy that scammed me but you know what you get over it and try to buy from someone else and do a little more research.
 
Yea I guess I should have read a little closer sorry Seamus but I dont like being called a thief and a liar ask anyone that knows me personally thats the one thing I will not tolerate from my children or myself.
 
And Jim could have worded the title a little differently. It could have said SOLD not selling it makes it sound as if Im trying to activley sell them after knowing they are more than likely not hets. Thanks Jim
 
Wyatt said:
Hey Damien, look at it this way.. All of this free advertising is really good for business... Allot of people who do read this are still buying balls from me... FREE ADVERTISING, it works... Thanks BOI...


Wyatt

Haha! All of this advertising for you being a scammer, and you've even got the manners to thank the BOI! Good on ya mate, and try and avoid hitting those rocks on your fall from..... i was going to say grace, but i don't think you were ever in a graceful position. :wavey: :bleep:
 
Genetics is not the same as a health issue, Damian...as was pointed out by Seamus, they don't change. I have never sold a het animal I didn't produce, so I don't have to worry about that situation.
I'm sorry you took offense to my comment about your business - excuse me, your hobby - but as I said, the tax portion of my post was a side issue. I only commented further on it in my second post because you chose to focus on it. I posted in the first place because you initially seemed to be implying that because you were not a business, just a hobbyist, that you held no (or less) responsibility. The declaration that you were a hobbyist spawned some discussion about what your level of responsibility might be. IMO, regardless of whether you are a functioning as a business or a hobbyist, the expectations should be the same.
I have not commented on the sale of the hets (or false hets, as the case may be - through no fault of yours), and what you should be expected to do about it. I don't feel that you are under any obligation at this particular point in time. Should your customer contact you and inform you that the hets did not prove out (and there have been enough offspring to reasonably accept that they are not going to - a normal factor which can likely be omitted given the origin of the animals in question), then as the person that sold him the animals, you would be responsible for making good on them. I would not hold you to any expectations that I wouldn't hold any other hobbyist or business to. Some people may have outstanding memories and/or records, and be able to trace the origins and destinations of each animal that passed through their hands several years later. I suspect that many others from both groups could go back and say they bought hets from persons A, B, C, and D in this year, and A, C, D, E, F in the following year; and they could likely identify which customers purchased hets in those years...but I don't know that they could identify who purchased animals from specific sources. Again, not dealing with hets, personally, maybe that thought is way off base. Regardless, unless it is expected that everybody that sold a TSE het is going to seek out the purchaser and offer compensation, I wouldn't expect it of an individual - in this case, you. Sure, if a person had a finite number of TSE hets pass through his hands, contacting the purchaser is the right thing to do...but, IMO, it would be appropriate to inquire if he still had them, if they bred, and if they produced what was expected, prior to making any offering. Based on the answers to those questions, it might then be appropriate to discuss the origin of the animals, and the possibility of remuneration. It is commendable that you are willing to search out the individual that purchased those animals, instead of waiting for the complaint.
 
The start of this thread says "you decide". I have decided that you are not a bad guy, just got in a situation.
Update your website (if you haven't already) continue to try to find the paperwork of years ago and if you can not then simply wait for the buyers to come to you, IF they ever do and make things right then.
Really that is all you can do.
 
BalloonzForU said:
Attacking Harold for his TOS is way out of line. Many have been scammed by buys as well of sellers in this industry and is the main reason to have a TOS that protect us from those scammers.

Bold Text should read, "buyers as well as sellers".....



............someone remind me not to post in the BOI before my morning caffeine!!
 
Oh, Damian, I didn't intentionally ignore your other question to me. In the event that I sent out a snake with internal parasites, or other issues that were not discovered within my normal TOS, I would naturally work to correct the situation to the customer's satisfaction as long as I was reasonably assured that the problem originated with me. Depending on the situation & what it took to satisfy the person, that might range from a partial refund as compensation, to paying the associated treatment costs, to having the animals shipped back and either replacing them or refunding the payment.
 
First off Harold I'm sorry man I just feel as I'm being attacked for some out and out BS so I did take offense to your post and apologize. Rozann thanks for your good comment and seeing me for what I am a decent seller that will do what I can to keep my buyer happy. And Felicia where is Rocky River in regards to Columbus? Again thank you Jim for your decieving title of this post.
 
dmasio said:
And Felicia where is Rocky River in regards to Columbus? Again thank you Jim for your decieving title of this post.

I'm 10 min west of downtown Cleveland, you're about 2 hours south of me.
 
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