Damian Macioce Selling TSE Hets -- You Decide

[BalloonzForU]

Oh, Damian, I didn't intentionally ignore your other question to me. In the event that I sent out a snake with internal parasites, or other issues that were not discovered within my normal TOS, I would naturally work to correct the situation to the customer's satisfaction as long as I was reasonably assured that the problem originated with me. Depending on the situation & what it took to satisfy the person, that might range from a partial refund as compensation, to paying the associated treatment costs, to having the animals shipped back and either replacing them or refunding the payment.

And I couldn't agree more than having a TOS setup in this mannor. If you try to put in your TOS what you are willing to do you may end up doing more than you should do on a case by case situation. There are too many different scenarios to put everything in a TOS.

 

[E2MacPets]

The declaration that you were a hobbyist spawned some discussion about what your level of responsibility might be. IMO, regardless of whether you are a functioning as a business or a hobbyist, the expectations should be the same.

I guess I should clarify my feelings on this subject- if you are actively doing business, then yes you should be held to the same standards regardless if you consider yourself to be a hobbyist or not. However I feel that if you are a hobbyist that may on occassion buy and sell animals for whatever reason, that it may be unreasonable to expect you to maintain the finances necessary to be able to issue refunds a year after the sale. I'm not justifying it, I'm not encouraging it, and I'm not saying it's ethically sound. I am just saying that I think in the process of policing this hobby, we need to be reasonable with our expectations of people.

I definitely consider this thread to be warranted. I also consider the thread title to be perfectly reasonable. Now let's see how this and all future TSE related issues play out.

 

[David Reid]

IF

Damian sold the hets right after he learned that they probably were not hets, that is lousy. If he sold them while still thinking they were legit hets, then what exactly did he do wrong?

 

[KelliH]

Very well said Casey! It's easy to play monopoly with other people's money and livelihood. Furthermore, if one throws suspicions around on each and every person the chances of outing a "true bad guy" do not increase. Much to the contrary we numb our senses to the point of not being able to recognize a bad guy standing right in front of our noses once he/she finally shows up. After all, they are all potential bad guys.

You don't need to steal possesions to be a bad guy. In fact there's a "new breed" of bad guys running rampant among us. They don't stick to the traditional definition as they don't steal tangible things that can be purchased or sold. They "only" steal intangibles such as dignity, self worth, and they denigrate people at will. They don't limit themselves to the "traditional" bad guys but to anyone that doesn't think as they do.

Their train of thought: "I'm great thus I have "great thoughts"; if this other individual doesn't agree with "my great thoughts" then "he is not great"; in fact he is a scammer in the making; I need to stop him now!

These individuals just do it for the fun of it and for their self-empowerment.

Now that is an excellent post, one of the best and truest I have read on Fauna for quite some time. In fact, it is so good I read it twice.

 

[critical bill]

Damian sold the hets right after he learned that they probably were not hets, that is lousy. If he sold them while still thinking they were legit hets, then what exactly did he do wrong?

Damian was aware that the hets he sold were likely fakes back in 9/06 (according to a post of his on the TSE thread).

A better question might be....what has he done on his own since becoming aware that the animals were likely fakes? Or, why has it taken him this long to pursue doing something along the right line?

 

[Jim O]

Jim O (and others):
Just curious, do you plan on starting threads about everybody you find has sold TSE hets? And holding them to the same expectations? Or was this thread largely in response to Damian's involvement in another thread?

Harald,

I found the information out in the course of looking at Damian M in the Wyatt thread. It became grounds for impugning his opinion. We are all entitled to that. When this subject began to take over that thread one of the parties in the original thread suggested that it deserved its own thread. That seemed reasonable. Would I do it again? If the person was well aware of the TSE situation and had sold "hets" and done nothing to even notify the parties involved and planned (at that time) to do nothing about it, you bet I would. Selling fake hets, knowingly or unknowingly is a problem in our hobby. It's the main reason why I would NEVER resell unproven hets. This thread was created because there was a valid question. It was not created as a "bad guy" thread. In fact, I stated earlier in the thread that while I believe Damian had an obligation and he should have acted earlier, that doesn't necessarily make him a bad guy. My exact words were:

Does all of this make him a bad guy? Maybe, but probably not. More that with a little peer pressure he has seen that he has an obligation. Seen in the broad picture I think a really honorable man would have and could have acted differently. But there are all grades of good and bad.

As to the title of this thread, I never meant to imply that Damian was currently selling TSE "hets" and in retrospect I could have worded it differently. I was referring to his selling (in the past) of those animals. I screwed up. I apologize for the inference, Damian. I know that you are not currently selling them, and anyone who reads the original post in the thread hopefully knows that also.

 

[Wilomn]

So, damian knew, or highly suspected, that the snakes he purchased from tse as hets were most likely not hets shortly after he purchased them.

damian is a business, whether it's one clutch or 20, I just had this conversation with my accountant yesterday, if you make profit you must delcare it as income. This is irrelevant to this situation as far as guarentee is concerned beause damian says he's a good guy.

IF he's a good guy, he would be willing, IF the buyer was so inclined, to refund the purchase price of the snakes he unknowingly misrepresented. IF he had to do it by making payments, he would still do so as that would be the RIGHT thing to do. There is also the possibility that the owner would not want full compensation or may not want to give up the snakes. IF he's a good guy, he would do whatever it took to make the buyer happy.

Now, to the time frame. It seems that damian knew for a loooooooong time that he sold snakes that were MOST likely not what he sold them as. This is very close to but not exactly the same as selling snakes he KNEW were not what he said they were. IF he were a REALLY good guy, not just a good guy, he would have, as SOON as he was confident of it, put out notice wherever he could that the snakes he sold may not be as he represented them as being. Saying that he did not have contact information but was trying to locate those who had purchased from him would not only have been honest, but covers his butt in all other ways. If you can't contact someone all you can do is wait for them to contact you.

My feeling is that damian tried to dodge the bullet here. Unfortunately when the tse bullet hit a target it fragmented and damian got hit by a fragment, just as all the others who sold tse hets and kept quiet were hit. Some of the wounds have been publicized, some are still festering.

damian, let go all the crap you're holding on to about being picked on and persecuted and the folks doing it nothing but lazy homebodies, it serves no purpose other than to make you look petty and vindictive.

IF you're going to make it right, do what you can to do so. Do that and you'll have the respect you claim to want and need. Your mistake was one of inactivity not blatant theft. Yours is a relatively easily forgiven mistake, but mistake it was.

Own that and let the rest go.

I'd also recommend you talk to a CPA in your area and find out what you need to do to prevent your butt from being chewed by the IRS.

I don't think you're a bad guy, I think you made a bad decision. Correct it and you'll be fine.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Thanks for the post...it probably saved ME a ton of problems too! I see in his list of references name(s) of those that I have purchased Hets from..sigh. Thankfully this alert has put some on guard, because it's possible that he may have sold to or exchanged with his references named on his list..who have in turn sold to their customers...

This is one massive headache...if the ones that he sold are no longer in the possession of the owners is he then obligated to hunt down those new owners, OR are the owners that Damian sold to then responsible for tracking down those that they sold to?

Just one MASSIVE headache.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Additionally:

As an option to correct this: Is it possible that Damien could simply put an Ad in the newpaper with a time limit/deadline for people to get to him? I can't see anyone paying for the rest of their lives for an honest mistake.

 

[Wraith]

Harold your right I havent filed a DBA not for the purposes of dodging the IRS but I feel I dont do it a business and for that reason I advertise under my own name with the Stronghold title attached to it. And Im not sure what you mean lumping me in with others that dont want to conduct myself like a business because its only a hobby I dont remember saying that and any animal I produce I stand behind 100% and in this case even the animals I didnt produce. I dont sell these animals to pay my mortgage or any bills I use it to buy other animals or to go on vacation, I use my paycheck that I get on a bi-weekly basis as a beer delivery driver for my bills. So any person that makes money OTHER than their 9-5 should have a DBA (which I dont know what a DBA is Im sorry) for clothes they knit and sell, or how about the person that buys a few baseball cards here and there and turns them they should have to pay taxes for that, or the people that have yard or garage sales should they pay taxes on those things c'mon man that doesnt hold water with me.

It is the LAW to pay taxes on any hobby that generates money for a hobbyist. Each state designates a specific amount of money that you can make before they will require you to file taxes on the amount that goes over that limit. For some states it can be as little as $500-700 before you need to pay taxes on what you sell. Even selling stuff on Ebay, or yard sales or sewing or whatever is money that you are required to pay taxes on if you cross over your state's limit for a 'hobby'.

As for a DBA (i.e. doing business as) - it has nothing to do with taxes. What it does have to do with is how you call yourself as a business/hobby. If you want to conduct a business or hobby under any name other than your own birth name, then you need to file a DBA with your county/town/state clerk in order to legally be able to use that ficitious name for your hobby/business. Calling yourself Stronghold Reptiles and conducting sales under that name means you need a DBA to be legit otherwise you can only advertise under your own personal name.

 

[Wilomn]

Additionally:

As an option to correct this: Is it possible that Damien could simply put an Ad in the newpaper with a time limit/deadline for people to get to him? I can't see anyone paying for the rest of their lives for an honest mistake.

I think that putting ads in whatever he uses to sell and maybe one or two of the ballpython forums would be sufficient. No one wants to see this guy or anyone else crucified for being hornswaggled by tse.

If he makes an effort, more effort than sitting and hoping no one comes knocking, he's done enough.

As far as time limit, I don't know if there can be one. So long as proof can be provided that someone has snakes sold as hets that aren't, AND he sold them as guarenteed hets, then he'll need to make it good to the satisfaction of the buyer, be it refund in full or part or whatever else THEY work out together.

 

[hhmoore]

As for a DBA (i.e. doing business as) - it has nothing to do with taxes.

That is not entirely correct...at least in NYS. While purpose of the DBA is to identify the business and attach it to the proprietor's name (and to ensure that nobody else is operating a business under that name), filing it automatically registers one with the State, and they send the proprietor a tax certificate (and begin with quarterly tax filings). Granted, that is only the sales tax portion, and does not deal with the income tax, but it a necessary evil in many (if not most) states.

 

[shrap]

Simply put, if I sold someone hets that turned out not to be hets, whatever the circumstances, I would give them their money back. Simply because it is the right thing to do. For a business or a hobbyist.

Damian,

I want to make one thing perfectly clear about my only post in this thread. The one quoted above. In no way am I saying you are a bad guy in any way over this situation. I am just saying how I would personally handle the situation.

I dont think you are a thief, liar or bad guy in the slightest. You have always been a stand up guy in my eyes and this situation does not change that in the least.

So I hope you did not take my post as anything but what it was, which was about me and how I would deal with it if I was in your shoes. Not as an attack on your character.

 

[shytownjb]

As far as Damian goes, I can personally attest to his character. I have known Damian for a while now and KNOW that he wouldn't intentionally sell someone hets if he believed they weren't. Sounds like the person that started this thread has a lust for drama and starting witch hunts. If Damian had paperwork, but decided that those hets didn't fit into his plans and sold them, there is absolutely no crime or moral ambiguity in that. The threads concerning the person he bought them from were well after Damians dealings.
So now by posting here, I am sure I will be flamed as well. If that happens, so be it, but I refuse to not respond when a friend is being raked over the coals. Unless you have purchased the animals from him and have a valid dispute, there really is no reason for this thread. He has repeatedly said to call him and he will make it right...so call him. I have no doubt that he would give you way more courtesy than you probably deserve.
I actually got to know Damian from posting on the BOI about a guy who mailed me a rock, instead of my snake. Damian was very helpful in giving me ideas of how to resolve it. He didn't know me from Adam, but was looking to help a fellow Ohio hobbyist keep from getting ripped off. Doesn't sound like something a crook would take the time to do.
Some of you have WAAAY too much time on your hands.

 

[BalloonzForU]

So, damian knew, or highly suspected, that the snakes he purchased from tse as hets were most likely not hets shortly after he purchased them.

Wes,

From what I've read in this thread Damian sold them a couple weeks after he purchased them from TSE, back in 8/05, and not until 9/06 did he suspect they were poss fake hets.

Can someone clear up this time line???

 

[Otter_23]

When did people actually honestly know that the hets were fake? Meaning when had they actually been proven out and not just suspected? Not once have I seen him not say he will take care of the situation. If someone comes back to him he has said he will take care of it. How far does he have to go to tracking this person down? Should he take out ads in the LA time or USA weekly? I have not once seen him deny to selling TSE hets or say he wasn't going to rectify the situation when it comes up and I'm sure who ever bought them will come back to him when they don't produce. So he has some time to decide how to take care of that situation wether it be holding on to some albinos to give them or whatever. I see him being guilty of maybe not making the best judgement but to tarnish his whole business or an issue he has accepted responsbility for and agreed to rectify defeats the purpose of the BOI.

 

[shrap]

One other thing I as wondering about, does the person who bought them from Damian even still own them? Did they re-sell them? And if so what is Damian's responsibility then?

And what if they have been re-sold 3 or 4 times since Damian sold them? Where does responsibility lie then?

 

[Wilomn]

One other thing I as wondering about, does the person who bought them from Damian even still own them? Did they re-sell them? And if so what is Damian's responsibility then?

And what if they have been re-sold 3 or 4 times since Damian sold them? Where does responsibility lie then?

It's a harsh world.

My thinking on this is that Damian is responsible ONLY to the person he sold them too.

If the chain is 3 or 5 or 20 links long after his sale, and everyone of those people refunds the purchase price to their buyer, then Damian is on the hook to his.

If however, anyone of those subsequent sellers breaks the chain and Damian's original buyer never gets the snakes back, then Damian has no responsibility to do anything.

He's only responsible to the person he made the sale to.

 

[dmasio]

John sorry I just heard my phone ringing but I missed I appreciate you coming on here and giving a true personal reference but be careful brother these jackals are hungry (not all of you just some and you know who you are) and no need for you to take any shrapnel. Sammy I'm telling you that if the person resold them after me selling to them I'm not taking care of that granted genetics don't change after the 2nd or 3rd time they are sold but for me to have to owe someone 3rd or 4th hand is not right. And to Wes I got rid of them long before I even expected they were not hets so the beginning of your original post is wrong. And another thing I was thinking about where does the fault lie with someone such as fauna or kingsnake letting these people push their fake animals not only them but the great carolina reptile exchange. This site as well as kingsnake has let their ads be advertised by others selling their hets so whats that make then accomplices??? I would have to say if I'm an accomplice then so are they. But nobody wants to touch that and this is the 2nd time I stated that fact.

 

[Wilomn]

My appologies on the timeline Damian.

As I said in my post above, you are, so far as I am concerned, only responsible to the person you sold them too. Going further up the page, I also said you were not a bad guy, though not as good as you might try to appear here. In between I out
lined what I thought was acceptable, what I myself woud do were I in your situation, to alert the buyer of this possible problem.

As far as KS and Fauna go, they're the paper the ad is printed on, not the police force you go to when you get ripped off.

It's up to each of us individually to do our homework. After that, as I just said, the world is harsh.