Dan Poe & Dan Lubinsky - Worst of the Unethical Worst

[shrap]

I have not read them all, but I have read many, many, many, many (did I mention many?) pages.....

I can understand Dan P.s desire to get one of these beautys ( I dearly want a pair of Supers Snows myself). While I personally would not have chosen his path to get one, I don't have a total problem with it. Don't agree with it, but understand his desire to acquire one of these animals.

Now please correct me if I am wrong. From what I have gathered Dan L bought one the the macks from Alex with the understanding (a Gentlemans Agreement?) that he would not resell the animal any time soon, due to the fact that it is a special project. Correct???

Look, I know there is not a single Saint here among us, but when you make an agreement with someone.....

 

[Monte]

Why am I feeling queasy about this?

Chris, shouldn't it be Alex Hues who brings this up? I have read every post and also know that tempers were really high at times - including you who seemed to pop a major bolt at one point. I also have a feeling, that in the process of being skeletonized by the some of the folks in the leo forum feeding frenzy that ensued, both "Dan's" got backed into some corners defending themselves. I am not a fan of some people who feel they are trial lawyers from "Law and Order" - so I tend to have some sympathy for folks who get a million accusatory questions thrown at them. I'm not making excuses for them - but I can understand that it can get pretty hairy.

Putting the best construction on all things considered would seems to encourage me to give Dan Lubinsky the benefit of the doubt. This is a man who has been held in high regard in the leo community for quite awhile. While it looks like he screwed up bad - I think he's earned at least two or three "benefits of the doubt". If he said his wife got mad when he bought another expensive gecko - I'm going to believe him (having been married myself, I know that isn't a stretch).

Chris - you seem like a great guy - we've even shared some good natured barbs back and forth - but I think this accusation of Mr. Lubinsky is a little over the top. Once again, this is my opinion and I will feel freed to admit my error if proved wrong.

Anyway - I just wanted to give Mr. Lubinsky some help. A whole heap of hurt just came down on him.

Peace and a thoughtful Holy Week to you all.

 

[jenn]

Monte, i am very impressed with you're willingness to give the benifit of the doubt like that(and no im not being sarcastic) At first i was as well. But then i kept reading the post and noticed a Lot of conflicting statements made by him. That i found upsetting, and the fact that he had total disregaurd for the "agrement" he and Alex made was just down right disrepectful. And that speaks volumes when it comes to this.


But like you this is my opinion.

 

[Chris@TSE]

I agree monte, that is why my initial statements were accompanied with the fact I was merely disappointed. Now after seeing so many conflicting statements and WAY too many "cooincidences" my disappointment has turned to mild disgust.......

You can disregard all the facts in this whole mess if you like, it still boils down to one specific fact. They cannot be trusted, both have shown numerous conflicting statements not to mention HORRID husbandry and lack of concern for the well being of a live animal. If this was not a $1200+ mack and simply a $40 hypo I would still show the same amount of disgust with the situation. No quarantines? Subjecting a poor leo to risky shipping conditions TWICE in less than four days?!

Who would do such a thing??

Unfortunately now we know who.....

 

[Hues1]

Chris, shouldn't it be Alex Hues who brings this up?

Monte...all of the points and issues have been made in the other thread and realistically...there are 9 other people that it also effects, at least in my opinion anyway.

Some people are just going to see and believe what they want too...which is fine...just like the parents of bad kids that see their child as doing no wrong under any circumstance.

I dont know how else to say this, but is "ignorance" really an excuse? If lubinsky made a bad judgement call...then so be it. But if it was because of a down pay he placed on a car and needed the funds...well, I offered to refund 100% of the money the very day after he received this animal.

If he made a downpay for the car prior to my shipping he could've backed out, if he needed money for the car...he had an out on the 7th of January.

but instead the Mack male was sent to poe on the 10th....4 days after he received it, when could he have possibly decided to put the down pay on the car? he could've backed out prior to me shipping...he could've backed out when I offered a refund.

He never once mentioned that he may be having wife or money issues if he purchased this animal from me until now...we charged his card on the 29th of december...he had all the way til the 5th of january prior to shipping...then another opportunity on the 7th. of January after receiving to get his money back and back out. If he would've mentioned it...I would've understood...why would I offer a 100% refund because of a weight discrepancy and not be willing to offer one because of a wife or car issue? I wouldnt have...he never mentioned it. Heck...if it was really about the downpay or the wife issue...he could've said I misrepresented the animal and wanted his money back...I would've understood and he would've had an out because it was my stupidity and mistake with my scale.

But he did not back out nor take my offer of the refund for the weight discrepancy because he had a deal with poe...which again was not we discussed.

Here is what I believe...poe made him a tempting offer of purchasing this Mack male prior to me shipping...lubinsky figured he could breed a few of his females right away...get his money out of it, produce a few offspring of his own, receive a few from poe and still put a down pay on the car...win win situation for lubinsky and poe.

Either way you look at it...it still wasnt what he and I discussed. Even if the deal had been made between him and poe AFTER lubinsky made the deal with me...around the 29th of December and not before....he still ended up doing something we did not discuss.

Whatever scenario you want to go with....it wasnt what we discussed.

I'm a pretty forgiving guy myself...but I have first hand knowledge and experience in this matter and know that everything I discussed with lubinsky about the importance of me wanting these animals going to people who would run with the project all the way was the biggest concern I had, he sounded like a guy that would do what he was telling me about running with the project and breeding it into rainwater albinos he had set aside, I based my decision on that...so even if it wasnt poe who ended up with that mack male, lubinsky still didnt do what we discussed.

look at what has occured and look at this statement I just made...

Here is what I believe...poe made him a tempting offer of purchasing this Mack male prior to me shipping...lubinsky figured he could breed a few of his females right away...get his money out of it, produce a few offspring of his own, receive a few from poe and still put a down pay on the car.

Isnt that the most logical thing that could've occured ? considering the timing of the transactions and shipping, the specific Mack snow and the lack to accept my offer of refund when it was offered ?

As for poe...everyone here knows he propositioned numerous other people to purchase one for him from me, he just happened to find that person in lubinsky.

 

[Wilomn]

There is a point here that I think needs to be made.

Much like giving the beggar, and that's what they are be they homeless, drugaddicts or what have you, money and TELLING him not to buy drugs or alcohol with it, once you give him that money or, in this case, the lizard, what happens to it subsequently is NOT up to the seller/giver. UNLESS there was an understanding, and if THAT wasn't in writing there really was NO understanding, that should something occur to prevent the keeping of the lizard that it would go back to the ORIGINAL seller.

I don't know what Alex told the people who bought the Macks from him but I do know this. Once ownership changes hands it's no longer his business what happens to the lizard.

Now in THIS case, it SURE seems that poe got lubinski to do the deal for him and if this is true it seems VERY unlikey that lubinski did NOT know Alex had refused to sell to poe, which IS Alex's or any sellers right and priviledge, let there be NO question of that. No one HAS to sell to ANYONE he doesn't want to.

The method that poe got the Mack and the treatment of the Mack, well, they suck. But, to be all over lubinski for selling what was his is not right.

I would have VERY serious doubts about trusting lubinski and would trust poe NOT at all.

 

[Hues1]

you're absolutely right Wes....but, keep in mind that lubinsky would've NEVER received one if he DIDNT tell me "everything I wanted to hear". Had he been honest with me that is.

He would've never received one if I knew he was selling it, he would've never received one if I knew he was being co-erced by poe, he would've never received one unless I felt like he would've been as honest and trustworthy as the other 9 breeders.

 

[jenn]

You are right Wes, but it still amazes me how low people will go to get something. And Poe gets it and then almost kills it(if its not dead already hins no pics)

And the fact that someone would break an agreement its in my opinion just as bad. But then again you would think i would be use to seeing this kinda thing go on*sigh*

 

[Wilomn]

you're absolutely right Wes....but, keep in mind that lubinsky would've NEVER received one if he DIDNT tell me "everything I wanted to hear". Had he been honest with me that is.

He would've never received one if I knew he was selling it, he would've never received one if I knew he was being co-erced by poe, he would've never received one unless I felt like he would've been as honest and trustworthy as the other 9 breeders.

Oh I believe you Alex. It's just that he's getting crap for something that he really doesn't deserve it for.

THIS is why paperwork is so very important. THEN we could tear him a new one for selling it at all and an even larger one for selling it to poe. As it stands now what he did really sucks BUT he was within his rights, as far as I can see, to do with it what he wanted.

I've got a really cool new morph on false water cobras coming out this year, I hope and I really don't want it to go downhill. There are a few folks out there that I have confidence in working with them and I'll most likely be screening potential buyers carefully. I've already given thought to what I'd like to have happen, what should happen and what will most likely happen. What I've come up with is this: if I want control I CAN'T sell any of them. If I sell them I have to hope that things go my way but they probably won't.

I'm not ragging on Alex or saying he's wrong about how he sold his lizards. As I stated before, who any of us sell to us entirely up to us. And it still really SUCKS that lubinski seems to have hornswaggled Alex for poe. That stinks.

 

[Hues1]

Wes....thats almost like saying if a seller doesnt want to sell to you, then what you need to do is lie your butt off to get your way or better yet just lie from the beginning so you WILL have your way. UNETHICAL anyway you cut it. And this is in a business where we've all said trust/integrity/morals and ethics are what sets you apart from anyone else.

 

[reptilebreeder]

If he said his wife got mad when he bought another expensive gecko - I'm going to believe him (having been married myself, I know that isn't a stretch).

That was his initial explanation.
That he paid out big bucks, wife found out, the other Dan happened to find out he was "in trouble" (coincidently the same day?)and would buy it, still time to throw in with his animals for 3 days, and ship it to the other Dan. All this took place in like 4 days.
If you believe that's what happened and want to give him the benifit of the doubt, you might want to recall that he later on admitted that they had plans for breeding loans from the beginning.

Oh I believe you Alex. It's just that he's getting crap for something that he really doesn't deserve it for.

I agree with you Wes about some of the stuff, ie. once you own something it's your's to do what you want with it (unless legal contracts are drawn up) but I don't think he's getting crap that he shouldn't. He admitted that there were breeding loans arranged from the git go, so to me he bought that animal with false pretenses, and later lied about it. Ethical issues in my book.

 

[jenn]

And this is in a business where we've all said trust/integrity/morals and ethics are what sets you apart from anyone else.

Very true Alex, but like with every business you are going to have scum that will do what they have to do to get what they want. Wrong? YES But unfortunely people are greedy.

 

[Hues1]

Thank you John.

 

[Wilomn]

Wes....thats almost like saying if a seller doesnt want to sell to you, then what you need to do is lie your butt off to get your way or better yet just lie from the beginning so you WILL have your way. UNETHICAL anyway you cut it. And this is in a business where we've all said trust/integrity/morals and ethics are what sets you apart from anyone else.

I am NOT saying that. I am NOT surprised that it happened. I in NO way condone what lubinski and poe did. I just don't think that what he did with it, lubinski, after it was his, should be the issue.

What I am driving at is this. In THIS case, in which lubinski seems to have bought from you for poe because you wouldn't sell to poe, YES, he was wrong. In GENERAL though, NOT this case in particular, what happens after a sale is made, a sale made in good faith, is NOT up to the original seller.

I think you got one in the rear here Alex and I think lubinski knew he was bending you over and I can see where you might think I was condoning his actions as I was speaking about buyers and sellers in general as well as this case in particular but I was not trying to excuse lubinski.

Here, let me say it again in a different way.

lubinski did a really bad thing. poe is a dimwitted user who got lubinski to do a really bad thing.

Between the two of them they basically cheated a good guy, Alex, out of a lizard that he had EVERY RIGHT to deny to poe.

Had lubinski sent it back to Alex there would be NO problems here. Had he kept it there would be no problems here. Had he been honest with Alex, there would be no problems here. lubinski did NONE of these things and there is a VERY Large problem here.

Perhaps I was not so clear as I wanted to be in my prior posts, thinking in general terms to myself yet addressing a specific issue here. I've done that before; thinking that I am being clear and concise when in fact I am not.

I hope that has cleared up what I actually meant but said so poorly.

 

[Chris@TSE]

And this is the reason the thread was labeled Unethical instead of simply Bad Guy.


If the thread only covered Poe however it would have been MUCH different, believe me.

 

[shrap]

Chris,

What did Poe do that was sooooo wrong? Ultimately he just bought a gecko from someone that was willing to sell him one. That's it. He was not the one that had an agreement with Alex.

If anyone was grossly in the wrong it was Dan L. If he made a gentlemans agreement with Alex and broke it, then that is where the problem ultimately lies.

Were these two in cahoots in a deal that was deceptive to Alex? I believe so at this point. Do I think that either one of them are in the right for this deception? Absolutely not. Yet it was Dan L who had an agreement with Alex, not Poe. Poe was not under any obligation what so ever to Alex.

And Wes has a solid argument for Dan L too, about it is yours to do with as you please once a sale is complete. However, if there was an agreement, be it written or oral, I feel that a true man's word is as good as any written contract and should be just as binding. Call me old fashioned.

 

[Chris@TSE]

The answer to that question can be found by simply reading many of the threads involving Dan Poe, starting with the thread that is referenced in the begining of this one. There are many issues, the purchase of a gecko he was denied is only one of many.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I just finished reading the whole thread. Took me a couple of hours
between doing other things.

I think it is pretty cut and dry with Dan P. I would just like to know if there was a previous thread about the initial offering to join in this project. I believe it was mentioned somewhere in the other thread. If so please post the link.

Alex was there any email correspondence in your questioning Dan L. about taking on this project or was it all done by phone. I think it would help to know what line Dan L. feed to get in on the projection. The reason I am asking is that it would show the deceitfulness that was used to obtain the male with the knowledge that it was going somewhere else.

In general as was stated already, I am one hundred percent in agreement that once I or anyone purchases anything I have the right to do with it as I please as long as it is legal.

You are right it would be unethical to obtain it buy fraud which is what actually is being said. If true I would think Dan L. is unethical to deal with also.
I completely understand by your posts and posts by others that this project was dear to you and I can understand the potential of any morph project. I can see why you would be very upset.

Since, I never visited that forum (Except for the party in Texas thread) because my interests or any other areas, I have no idea what transpired when the project was offered out. Only the end result here.

I guess what I am wondering is if Dan L. gave you some kind of commitment to this projected that you can say without a doubt was a lie.

I think it is very obvious what he really planned to do.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Please excuse the typos like buy which should have been by.
and any others.

 

[Jim O]

A verbal agreement is legally binding and can be the basis of a civil action though obviously the case would not be as strong as one where signed documents exist.

That said, who cares? A person can only be judged to be as good as his or her word. Dan Lubinsky can be judged accordingly. Legal, notarized, sealed in stone documents existing or not existing notwithstanding.

As for Dan Poe, it has been suggested that all that he did was buy a gecko from a willing seller. Actually, what seems more likely is that he encouraged Dan Lubinsky to do two things:

• lie to Alex in order to obtain said gecko under false pretenses.
• breach a verbal contract that was made.

That is not just buying a gecko from a willing seller. Not by a long shot.