Dan Poe & Dan Lubinsky - Worst of the Unethical Worst

[Hues1]

I guess the easiest way to explain it is...

Mack Snows were released to 10 people

10 people were explained "conditions" of sale and reasonings why they may have been prospective buyers...

I was looking for people or better yet...people looking for Mack snows were offered the purchase of one based on several criteria, the criterias were cut and dry...the people would work with the project till fruition, the people were not greedy breeders looking to make a "quick buck" , mass produce or what occured here with lubinsky. The people would breed and cross breed into other genetic lines, create "new morphs"....overall, better the project. This criterria was set for these intitial Mack snows because of limited availability. everything that was done was done in order to better this project and to have a group of people that were dedicated enough to take it all the way.

The same criterias were used to place Mack snows to all of the people involved...and the other 9 people have done exactly what was discussed...hmmm 9 out of 10. If I was in court right this second...the fact of the matter is whether or not 10 people were sold one under this same condition and "term", all I would have to prove is that it was. Same M.O. across the board. Which goes back to the point that this particular animal was sold and purchased under false pretenses. Its a sale that should've never occured.

Given the time lines, specific animal, relationship between lubinsky and poe, problems with poe that were ongoing between 11/28 and 12/14 and his statements made concerning undercutting/undermining and causing damage both financially and professionally to myself and other people that may possibly be working with this project...its pretty easy to see that poe is trying to "damage" this project and can absolutely be held responsible for it...lubinsky on the other hand can be absolutely be held repsonsible as the vehicle used to get there. He can claim ignorance all day long....if anything this would be a civil matter and with everything I've got...its easy to prove that ultimately they conspired to buy this animal under false pretenses in order for poe to inflict damages to the person(s) involved. I guess the issue most people are missing is not what lubinsky did after the sale, its more of what was said and done prior to the sale that initiated the sale in the first place, making false and misleading statements in order to reach and eventual goal.

Poe has stated he will be undercutting myself and other people working with the Mack snows, he has insinuated parasites may be in my collection, he has lied and changed things around to how they fit him. I can show his animosity and revengeful/spiteful actions towards myself which originated from a decision to not sell him a mack snow. I can most certainly prove he proceeded to contact many many many other persons in order to co-erce them into purchasing a animal from me on his behalf with out my prior knowledge. I can show his intention to undercut and undermine myself and other breeders by proceeding to immediately trying to produce viable offspring for re-sale. I can show that him and lubinsky knowingly tried to conceal the point that a conditioned animal was in the possesion of poe by showing poe's past actions on this forum and e-mails/pm's/ and conversations to persons that now have come to light.

Keep in mind people...if it hits the courts...it'd be a civil matter and not criminal, in civil matters....all thats necessary is to prove the intentions/actions were there and the intentions/actions lead to a consequesence.

 

[Jim O]

if it hits the courts...it'd be a civil matter and not criminal, in civil matters....all thats necessary is to prove the intentions/actions were there and the intentions/actions lead to a consequesence.

Yes, and the standard of proof would be "by a preponderance of the evidence" (that is, more likely than not), not "beyond a reasonable doubt" as in a criminal case.

I would say there is a preponderance of the evidence here.

 

[Hues1]

One more thing, if everyone would please just read and re-read the original thread you will see that I have not changed any arguments/valid points I have made, everything I've been spewing has been precise and accurate and within the realm of why this sale should've never occured.

Then please read and then re-read again to find all if the inconsistencies in statements made by poe and lubinsky, only people having something to hide (or in this case to control damage) would continuously change and adapt their "reasoning" in order to control that damage.

Please understand that this was a very important project to me as I've put the time,energy, and monies necessary into it in order to see it into fruition. Not only do I have all of those above factors involved, I also have my reputation and integrity on the line because of my promises to the other legitimately purchased Mack owners that I would help and provide any necessary support in order to see them be equally successful in this endeavor...ie, answering any questions/concerns or issues like this that have arisen.

Its the same concept as a big company with viable products that needs to be distributed and honestly re-presented by its representatives/business partners/industry partners. Theres always a screening process...this is a situation where my screening process was passed with false and misleading statements.

 

[Hues1]

I guess what I am wondering is if Dan L. gave you some kind of commitment to this projected that you can say without a doubt was a lie.

Dennis please read the above...what it breaks down to is the same criteria/M.O I used in order to screen pontential buyers...the same terms if you will, all of the other Mack owners are doing exactly what was discussed between them and I. They were honest in their intentions from the beginning.

 

[riverjop]

WOW!!!
I must say I haved learned alot from all this!
2 Threads
73 pages
362 posts
12527 views.
findind out Monte is a Hippie.....Priceless!!!

 

[Monte]

The silence is deafening . . .

(Re-posted from the leopard Gecko forum - so some of this is more specific to people who post on that forum. )

. . . Dan Lubinsky is a man that many of us personally like. He always had good pictures - is very genial - positive and helpful.

Did he screw up? Yep, no doubt. But the piling on that is taking place is appalling. Where are all his friends? Someone screws up - even badly - does that mean that we all just abandon him to the cyber-vultures who pick over his carcass? We don't have to make excuses, but to continue to let him swing in the wind with our silence tells me a lot about the character of this (leopard gecko) forum community - and it makes me sad.

I've seen it too many times in the herp community - and it's really really disappointing. It's like disemboweling someone who screws up is a sport around here. And with a guy like Dan Lubinsky - who we all know is a great guy - it's even more tragic. Maybe I am too much of a "hippie" - as one character described me as - but you have to agree - there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of loyalty to friends. Are we only friends when we are perfect?

Dan Lubinksy isn't some scammer herp trash we see from time to time. Dan Lubinsky is a good guy - who seems to made a bad judgment. I'm sure that he would love to take his actions back. That's just my assumption, though. Heck, I don't even know him outside of this forum and KS. I don't think we've ever exchanged an email. But I forgive him and make a public statement right here that I still like him.

I've probably burned my last bridge here and that makes me sad. But I'm sick to death of the vultures and even more disappointed by the silence of Mr. Lubinsky's gecko community. I'm not mad - just disappointed.

Good Friday is coming. I'm glad that guy died for even bad guys like me . . .

 

[shrap]

A verbal agreement is legally binding and can be the basis of a civil action though obviously the case would not be as strong as one where signed documents exist.

That said, who cares? A person can only be judged to be as good as his or her word. Dan Lubinsky can be judged accordingly. Legal, notarized, sealed in stone documents existing or not existing notwithstanding.

As for Dan Poe, it has been suggested that all that he did was buy a gecko from a willing seller. Actually, what seems more likely is that he encouraged Dan Lubinsky to do two things:

• lie to Alex in order to obtain said gecko under false pretenses.
• breach a verbal contract that was made.

That is not just buying a gecko from a willing seller. Not by a long shot.

Poe encouraged Dan L to do bad things? Come on Jim we are big boys here, no one can make any of us do what we don't want to do in the first place. My 10 year old kid knows better than to tell me "Well so and so told me to do it". At age 10 she fully understands that she is the one who is responsible for her own actions. So don't come on here acting like Poe is responsible for the actions of Dan L. They are both big boys and knew exactly what they were doing.

You completely missed my point there, Jim O. My point was that Dan L is the one who is ultimately responsible for this becasue he is the one who had the agreement with Alex. I plainly stated that I think they were both in cahoots to deceive Alex and do not think either one of them are right for doing so, yet we would not be here discussing this if Dan L would of been a man of his word.

 

[Jim O]

Poe encouraged Dan L to do bad things? Come on Jim we are big boys here, no one can make any of us do what we don't want to do in the first place. My 10 year old kid knows better than to tell me "Well so and so told me to do it". At age 10 she fully understands that she is the one who is responsible for her own actions. So don't come on here acting like Poe is responsible for the actions of Dan L. They are both big boys and knew exactly what they were doing.

You completely missed my point there, Jim O. My point was that Dan L is the one who is ultimately responsible for this becasue he is the one who had the agreement with Alex. I plainly stated that I think they were both in cahoots to deceive Alex and do not think either one of them are right for doing so, yet we would not be here discussing this if Dan L would of been a man of his word.

I think you missed my point not the other way around.

If I offer you something of value, say money, to shoot my wife, and you do it you are the one who us guilty of murder. And I am guilty of soliciting and paying you to do that murder.

The law sees both as heinous crimes, albeit slightly different ones.

If Poe offered Lubinsky something of value as an inducement to obtain something under false pretenses and breach a verbal contract, then both have committed civil wrongs. Different ones, yes, but wrongs nevertheless. And both have clearly tarnished their reputations.

It goes beyond your 10 year old saying "Well so and so told me to do it". It's "Well so and so told me to do it and offered to do my homework for a month and I know it was wrong but it was too much to resist". Big difference, in my opinion.

And yes, if Lubinsky had not accepted the inducement then we would not be talking about all of this....maybe. Evidently Poe went to several others and might eventually have found another willing partner in his scheme. The names would then be different but not the subject matter. If Poe had not hatched his scheme , we would also not be talking about this.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? It doesn't matter in this case, not to me anyway.

 

[shrap]

Can't argue with that, because I don't know what the hell you are trying to say. And don't care at this point either. I think all that needs to be said has been said anyway unless some new information becomes available.

 

[Jim O]

Can't argue with that, because I don't know what the hell you are trying to say.

Come on, it isn't that complicated.

And don't care at this point either.

Your choice what to care about.

I think all that needs to be said has been said anyway unless some new information becomes available.

We agree on that.

 

[Otter_23]

I think it is very evident why Alex refused to sell to Dan P. to begin with. Dan P. has no self control. He couldn't wait to get a snow like the majority of the leopard gecko world. He couldn't wait wait to breed that gecko. He couldn't wait for the eggs to hatch so he incubated them to be all male (plus the male would be more beneficial for him) and he couldn't wait to post his picture of his baby (to let Alex know that he had been screwed). Alex's position on this guy was dead on from the beginning and I honestly don't think Dan P. will stop here he has no patience to learn what it truely is to be a top breeder. Further more I guess it is just karma that his gecko is the only one to come down with illnesses which I think is a direct result of the lack of his self control. For him to state he isn't doing it for the money is a joke. How many people would purchase that expensive of an animal and decide to play vet themselves? There are many on fauna that would take there normal gecko to the vet for far less and this was and expensive investment. My guess is he doesn't care about the animals just the outcome of how many babies.
Sorry to disagree with you Monte but not knowing Dan L. or his reputation before all of this I can assure you he doesn't look like a good guy to me. You see I looked at the ads that Alex had for the snows and I don't even own a leopard gecko but I understood the ramifications of what the project was and what it could become. Dan L. knew very well what he was getting into and to say he didn't want Alex upset for returning the gecko is a load of crap. After the screening process he went through to obtain the gecko he had no idea that Alex would be upset he sold it to just anyone? Do you really buy that? Dan L. also states he isn't in it for the money. Please get real. He couldn't help but post numerous times what kind of corvette he was getting. Can you be anymore materialistic? Not to mention he bred his 3 females so good chance he will have a snow anyways so why not sell the male. Plus on top of it he will get some offspring from the guy he sold it to and an APTOR, but he isn't in it for the money. All of that cost him nothing. So for nothing he gets several snow babies worth quite a bit right now and an APTOR. Dan L. in my opinion underestimated the arrogance and lack of self control of Dan P. and got caught be very underhanded. It may be his only mistake but a big one. He has shown to me he lacks integrity and professionalism. Even if it was just a mistake he has made no effort from what I have seen to try to rectify the situation with Alex who he considered a friend. I just have a hard time believing that someone who has such experience with the industry and breeding could be so ignorant to common decency and to the reasons why Alex was trying to protect him and the other investors (no matter what anyone says that is what these geckos are investments).
Mark Westberg

 

[Xelda]

I've been a member of the leopard gecko communities both here and on Kingsnake longer than most of the people following this thread--even you, Chris. I was acquainted with both Dans before any of this happened. While I have never held a fond impression of Dan Poe, I do consider Dan Lubinsky to be a reputable breeder. He made a bad decision. We can get over that. The real question we should be asking before calling him "the worst of the unethical worst" is will he likely make the same move again?

Look at his record before any of the recent posts came up. He had a clean slate up till now. Look at his pictures posted on the galleries. He has healthy-looking animals. Look at the posts he's contributed on the forums. He's a sharp guy. He has multiple good guy posts about him on the BOI. I can say with confidence that I don't think he would make the same mistake twice. Dan Poe on the other hand, well, I don't need to reiterate what's already been said about him.

With the leopard gecko market being what it is, I understand why people want to protect their investments. But I don't really see how Dan Poe could be a threat. Even if he tries to sell the snows he produces, would he be able to damage the market? He doesn't have records to prove its origin (since he obtained it deceitfully) nor can he take any decent pictures of his animals. Not too long ago he was selling Tremper patternless albinos. Seeing how only an extremely limited number of breeders have been able to produce Tremper PAs, I would want to buy from an established source so I could be 100% sure that I was getting a Tremper and not a different strain. Just look at how people were immediately skeptical his snow was codominant in the original thread where he was showing off his new hatchling.

Call me the naive, ignorant animal lover if you want, the only thing that really bothers me about the situation is all the stress subjected to the poor male. Shipped twice and bred multiple times all within a span of less than a week? Moreover without an adequate quarantine period? Poor thing.

 

[Chris@TSE]

I just relayed the facts here, and they do not lie. He might have been a good guy in many eyes before. He was in mine..... That time has passed. People are always able to make thier own decisions based on the facts presented. No one is being forced to do anything....


From the facts gathered it is not only obvious that he showed little to no concern for the health and well being of the animal in question by exposing the animal to such a steep shipping risk twice in under four days, little to no concern for his actual collection by introducing an unknown without quarantine, and little to no conern for the steps Alex took to ensure this project went to individuals with its best interests in mind. The bottom line is he HAD to of lied in order to get this animal from Alex in the first place. He HAD to of told Alex exactly what he wanted to hear, Alex would not have sold the animal given the truth. This cannot be denied. These facts alone give me all I need to know.

Everything else just confirms these facts. Call them cooincidence, call them whatever you like. I would have called them cooincidence too if it had only been one or two trivial facts, but it all points in the same direction here, and time lines do NOT lie. There WAS a arrangement between both dans and it involved an underhanded scheme to obtain a mack snow specimen for dan p who had been refused. I can go on and on all day about the other facts involved, but I would much rather urge you to read them for yourself.

My points have been made and my message relayed. My job is done. Unless given reason otherwise I will make an effort from this day forward to inform inquiring parties of these actions and facts. People have a right to know these facts before potentially dealing with unethical sellers. If they are capable of these actions, they are capable of much more. No matter how you slice or spin it, it still happened. Nobody twisted anyones arm or held anyone hostage.

He dug his own hole. If he wants, he can dig himself out of it just as easy by telling the truth.

 

[jenn]

Here boys and girls this is what the REAL Dan P is like!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

who do you think you are to be accusing me of not caring for an infected animal ? i give every animal the best of care . i had that male tested before he bred my females , im not stupid ! and the females have been tested since . i dropped off fecals and received a phone call with results so no proof , but i will get documented ones soon enough . my Snow is in a hell of alot better condition than in that picture where his stomach is sunken in near the back legs (the condition he arrived in from alex , over ten grams lighter than Alex told Dan it was , and 7 grams lighter than it was listed at on his website ) . that picture was taken by Dan when he got his male . ill be posting pictures along with a bill of health for each and every animal as i get them . and ill post the male tomm .

have a nice night , i sure wont !

Dan Poe





Now i get this because i used his OWN methodes against him. If this is all true then explain to me why on earth you would just put that snow in right away with your females if he was already looking sickly from Dan L? Could it be you are money hungry dumb ass? Im going to go out on a limb here and say yes! And i hope the pics prove that he is good and healthy! I really do! But it does NOT change the fact that you endangered you WHOLE collection by doing that! Damn dude, anyone who cares about their animals knows that! So yes Dan P you are that STUPID!

I look foward to talking to you again

 

[brucestephenson]

Sick to my stomach!!!!!

This whole matter, in my personal opinion, is that this whole matter is sickening. How are we going to look back on these 2 threads (BOI and Leo Forum) in a couple of years when these leos are $15.00 at Strictly Reptiles?
Is it worth DESTROYING these two poor guys (who I know next to nothing about)? Because you just don't like them? Every person here has or will experience health problems in your collections.

Have they raped a child or something? The filthy phone call to Kelli was a crime, but we must wait for proof of guilt, then act.

This is the problem when big money and animals come together. What a shame on us all!!!!!!! Life has definitely taught me that "Let he who is without guilt throw the first stone." None of us including me is perfect. I would just like to get back to enjoying talking about leopard geckos and seeing neat pictures in the leo forum. Screw the big money aspect!!!!!!!

 

[Chris@TSE]

Apparently you did not read the previous thread regarding this matter or simply skimmed through it. Looking back on this matter when macks are $15 will not change anything. Will the price change change thier husbandry skills? Will the price change endow them with ETHICS? Will the price change prevent them from doing somethingl ike this to someone else?

No.

Lets put it this way. Say you dealt with hots, and you were a frim opponent of putting down live hots for scientific reserarch. I called you, told you everything you wanted to ehar, purchased numerous hots, and then butchered them once they arrived. Would you feel betrayed? Would you trust me again? Would you want others in your field to trust me?

Absolutely not. There are more things involved than a simple morph. I do not care that Dan Poe now owns a mack, he poses no threat to the project. Nor does he pose any sort of "competition". Personally, the Mack project was a nice experiment, and we'll continue to have a great time crossing this line and discovering its potential.

What disturbed me was what this individual was willing to do to obtain one. What also disturbed me were the lies and involvement of a once reputable breeder I used to respect. If this was a $40 leo I would STILL be arguing the fact that little concern was shown for the welfare of this live animal. This does not boil down to money.... It boils down to reputation, respect for your fellow breeder and hobbyist, and trust. Not to mention ethics.

Both of these individuals have proved what they are capable of. They simply cannot be trusted. I'm hoping Dan Lubinsky will eventually shed some TRUTH finally on this subject in an attempt to resolve the damage he has caused, but I am not holding my breath. As for Poe, we all knew long before this that he was a waste..... This just confirms it even more.

 

[Chris@TSE]

Oh, and by the way Bruce, I'll send you some pepto bismol if you like....... you should really get that taken care of.

 

[Wilomn]

This whole matter, in my personal opinion, is that this whole matter is sickening. How are we going to look back on these 2 threads (BOI and Leo Forum) in a couple of years when these leos are $15.00 at Strictly Reptiles?
Is it worth DESTROYING these two poor guys (who I know next to nothing about)? Because you just don't like them? Every person here has or will experience health problems in your collections.

Have they raped a child or something? The filthy phone call to Kelli was a crime, but we must wait for proof of guilt, then act.

This is the problem when big money and animals come together. What a shame on us all!!!!!!! Life has definitely taught me that "Let he who is without guilt throw the first stone." None of us including me is perfect. I would just like to get back to enjoying talking about leopard geckos and seeing neat pictures in the leo forum. Screw the big money aspect!!!!!!!

Until I read the price in one of these thread I had NO clue just how much these lizards were worth.

The simple fact is that a TOTAL scumbag and a scumbag in training are now in the public eye.

Once again the BOI, and to a lesser extent the Leopard Gecko Forum have proven their worth to the reptile community.

Hopefully poe will dry up and drop out, but with all the other scumbags out there he will most likely continue to use oxygen that could be better used in a fish tank of tadpoles, furthering his dishonest ways and bretheren. lubinsky on the other hand, MAY, just possibly, pull his a$$ from the ashes if he comes clean and stays that way.

While money was the BASE motivation of these two individuals, I NEVER considered it at all.

To quote that big headed teacher from South Park whose name I cannot remember, lying is BAD, VERY BAD.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Guys.

To preface this post, I am not a gecko person and don't know either of the two individuals that are being targeted in this thread. I'm a colubrid breeder. I wouldn't know a Mack Snow from any other morph. That said, a couple of questions and obsevations have come to mind while wading through this mess.

The first question is directed at Mr. Lubinsky if he is still monitoring this thread.

Dan, in your initial and ongoing conversations with Dan P., did he ever mention to you that Alex had refused to sell him a Mack Snow?

In all honesty folks, the answer to this question is, to me, the most important piece of info in regards to Dan L. I have to agree with Wes on his take of the post sale scanario. Once the animal is paid for and delivered, it is his. If he knowingly sold it to someone you had expressly refused to sell to then I agree that you have a major reason to be pissed. That would be highly unethical in my opinion.

My second question is directed to Alex.

If Dan L. had purchased the animal, bred a few females and then sold it to, say, Kelli or Chris or even me, would you be upset?

People do change their minds and directions on breeding projects. I have purchased high end animals and decided fairly quickly that I had made a bad decision for one reason or another and sold them. In all honesty Alex if you felt that strongly about it, a simple repurchase agreement guaranteeing you first right of refusal in the event anyone sold the animals would, in my opinion, not have been at all out of line. Again, circumstances do arise that cause people to change direction

Just supposing that Dan P. contacted him and said that he did not have the cash on hand to lock the animal in and was afraid he was going to lose it. I have fronted money to friends in a short term loan situation like that. I offerred to do it the other night for a buddy. I am not saying that this was the case but it is at least plausible. The added bonus of being able to add the genes to his own bloodlines and the promise of a couple of offspring would simply have been interest on a short term loan. That is the reason that I think the answer to my first question is key to deciding the bad guys here.

Personally I think Poe has already convisted himself of being shifty and someone who is willing to go to any lengths to get what he wants. He is definitely someone I would avoid.

On the other hand, given the strong positive comments we have heard on Mr. Lubinsky that are based on several years of his presence in the hobby, my gut feeling is that he did not knowlingly sell the animal to Poe knowing that Alex had refused him. I may be wrong but that is what I honestly believe.

 

[Hues1]

Dan, in your initial and ongoing conversations with Dan P., did he ever mention to you that Alex had refused to sell him a Mack Snow?

In all honesty folks, the answer to this question is, to me, the most important piece of info in regards to Dan L. I have to agree with Wes on his take of the post sale scanario. Once the animal is paid for and delivered, it is his. If he knowingly sold it to someone you had expressly refused to sell to then I agree that you have a major reason to be pissed. That would be highly unethical in my opinion.

Okay...here we go again, lubinsky could've known, should've known, didnt know, maybe knew, had a feeling, didnt know whatsoever... if poe was refused a purchase by me, ....does it change the matter of whether or not selling the Mack snow was NOT what I and lubinsky discussed, excuse me if I sound "prickly"...but the only reason lubinsky obtained a Mack snow was because he passed my screening and questions...which included detailed questions pertaining to the intentions of said buyer...questions of which I was looking for specific answers in the realm of working with this project til fruition, taking it the whole 10 yards, breeding and cross breedings, producing other viable moprhs and perfecting the Snow and Super snow lines, the viability of the market and how to ensure that anyone working with this project had a fighting chance...what does the sale of said animal matter whether or not lubinsky had prior knowledge of my refusal to sell to poe ? Either way you cut it,look at it, toss it, slice it, split it, chew it.....if he did know...then very very bad bad bad, he he didnt know then bad bad bad because what part of working with the project til its fruition and viability meant the animal was available for resale 4 days after purchase ?

My second question is directed to Alex.

If Dan L. had purchased the animal, bred a few females and then sold it to, say, Kelli or Chris or even me, would you be upset

Absolutely upset, why would I screen potential buyers...ask them if their intentions were within the realm of what I believed to be the better good of all that got involved if very simply...we could've all just swapped money and passed the same Mack male around?

one last time boys and girls .....If I would've believed that lubinsky would've sold this Mack to anyone in the world after having it for 4 whole whopping days...he would not have been sold one...period. The only reason why I agreed to sell him one was because of his intentions prior and during the sale, his intentions lead me to believe otherwise, I gave him opportunities to back out.

hows this for a time line...

11/28/04 thru 12/14/2004 poe was repeatedly declined for the purchase of a Mack male (same one that lubinsky inquires about around the 16th/17th of the same month via e-mail and ultimately ends up with)

12/29/04 lubinsky's card charged

01/05/05 Mack male shipped via overnight UPS to lubinsky from AHR

01/06/05 lubinsky receives

01/07/05 offer of complete refund for weight discrepancy was declined by lubinsky

01/08/05 saturday, 01/09/05 sunday

01/10/05 - Mack male shipped from lubinsky to poe

Okay...lets say this, lets say that lubinsky had no knowledge whatsoever that poe was declined a sale...based on that time line I provided above...is it safe to assume that this particular animal was already headed for resale? and if it was ....this was not what lubinsky and I discussed, nor would he had the opportunity to purchase this animal if that was the case...thats the unethical part, thats the part he's being held accountable for...not whether or not he sold it to poe....but simply the fact that he would've not have received one if I believed the animal would've been for re-sale promptly, the only way I would not have believed that was because...that was not what we discussed nor that wasnt what I felt his intention was...but apparently it was. I OFFERED and HE HAD opportunities to back out prior to shipping and even after shipping !