Dan Scolaro bad guy.

[Phobos]

I've not defended him.
It looks to me like he does a lot of buying and selling for fast turn around, and that is going to result in some sick animals going out. It does not however mean that the disease is lingering in his collection, nor that his animals were even exposed to it. IBD can linger in boas for years, unless he tests each boa he takes in, no quarantine procedure is going to prevent him from sending one out with IBD.

If you want to reduce the risk of receiving a diseased animal, pay more for your animal and buy directly from a captive breeder. The volume sellers will receive and pass on animals that have problems from time to time, that's just reality, and that's the risk you take when you buy from them.

They would not be buying to sell if there wasn't a profit motive. Testing each animal takes away any profit as it would likely result in his imports costing more than captive bred. Of course he's not going to do it.

You get what you pay for - pay more for an animal directly from the guy who bred it than for an equivalent from a volume dealer and you reduce your risk.

Testing is just not available at present. A form of screening could be considered since suspected snakes have a very high white blood cell count but is that practical? I consider this to be the most current information on the the disease and should be used as a guideline for captive care of of boa's & pythons to keep the chance of spreading IBD.

http://sacs.vetmed.ufl.edu/Old%20Files/wildlife/IBDINFO.html

Please forgive me if it's been referenced already.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Who do you think are buying the animals from resellers like Dan? How do you know that the breeder you are buying that animal from hasn't just purchased an animal from one of those resellers?

Regardless, as I've said over and over....if Dan would have handled this much differently, none of this would have come about. He screwed himself.

Seems to be a consistant theme Cat!

 

[spawn]

Seriously Mark -- get the F out of this thread. You embarassed yourself with the spam and you're STILL checking this thread? Get deleted already jeeze...

 

[jrgh17]

Testing is just not available at present. A form of screening could be considered since suspected snakes have a very high white blood cell count but is that practical? I consider this to be the most current information on the the disease and should be used as a guideline for captive care of of boa's & pythons to keep the chance of spreading IBD.

http://sacs.vetmed.ufl.edu/Old%20Files/wildlife/IBDINFO.html

Please forgive me if it's been referenced already.

Actually- A live liver biopsy can be done, as inclusion bodies will stain. And it said that ON the page you posted. No, it is not a traditional test with a definite yes or no answer, but almost NO tests that we have for any illness (human or animal) are.

Considering Dan is now looking at his entire reputation smeared on the train tracks, and considering that IBD wipes out entire collections (COLUBRIDS TOO), it seems very practical to me.

Did you check out this?

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/doortiz2/www/IBD.pdf

 

[Phobos]

Yes, all that was explained in UFCVM site. That's not a standard diagnostic test. Open wedge biopsy on a very sick boa? Kiss it goodby, that was only done for the purpose of this paper. It's not cost effective, nor a good diagnostic test for anybody who wants to rule out IBD. How much do you think that procedure cost? I would say (with some experience) around $500 just for the histology, plus the surgery to get the chunk of liver. As usual no common sense is being applied, just put the animals down if it's suspect. Even a good necropsy will cost some bucks. It's not a disease with a good cheap diagnosic (yet) test like OPV, where you send a small volumn of blood and $50, then you'll get the results in a week.

Look, I have no idea what a common south american boa costs but I would not spend the $$ and the risk to have that sort of work up done. Why should a re-seller spend that amount upfront to insure you get disease free snakes, how much??

 

[E2MacPets]

Why should a re-seller spend that amount upfront to insure you get disease free snakes

A re-seller shouldn't- not until customers start scanning copies of medical reports indicating they received animals with diseases. Once that happens, what are your options?

Can you place yourself in Dan's shoes and say that ethically you would be justified in denying that you have ever had a deadly illness in your collection? Could you ethically continue to do business as usual?

I'm actually quite surprised that Dan hasn't revealed the source of the snake (since he did imply 'what if the IBD came from them'). I don't know how that reflects on Dan's integrity. On the one hand, he's being loyal to his business contacts, which is certainly honorable. On the other hand, he's allowing for the possibility that there is a breeder out there that is selling animals with IBD. We don't know if this breeder only sells wholesale, so your argument for what should be done gets a little more complicated...

 

[snake5007]

Yes, all that was explained in UFCVM site. That's not a standard diagnostic test. Open wedge biopsy on a very sick boa? Kiss it goodby, that was only done for the purpose of this paper. It's not cost effective, nor a good diagnostic test for anybody who wants to rule out IBD. How much do you think that procedure cost? I would say (with some experience) around $500 just for the histology, plus the surgery to get the chunk of liver. As usual no common sense is being applied, just put the animals down if it's suspect. Even a good necropsy will cost some bucks. It's not a disease with a good cheap diagnosic (yet) test like OPV, where you send a small volumn of blood and $50, then you'll get the results in a week.

Look, I have no idea what a common south american boa costs but I would not spend the $$ and the risk to have that sort of work up done. Why should a re-seller spend that amount upfront to insure you get disease free snakes, how much??

Reputation, reputation, reputation. The best things in life are worked for.

 

[GottaLuvHerps]

I think there are a few basic things that are left to say about this entire situation really. At least this is all I have left to say.

1. We are NOT saying Dan KNOWINGLY sent out a snake with IBD, only that a snake that was diagnosed with IBD was sold by Dan. There is a huge difference.
2. Dan has attempted to smooth-talk, lie, back peddle and simply avoid the issue altogether, and will not even acknowledge the fact COMPLETELY that this snake passed through his facility. The half-assed admissions that he recognized the report said IBD are not good enough. He is expected by the community in which he serves to own up and just admit that something is amiss.
3. Dan (and no other breeder) is expected to do the kind of testing required to ensure a perfectly IBD-free colony unless something DOES go wrong. The problem here is that Dan is not taking any precautions now that something HAS gone wrong, and most likely not even warning customers that he has now, that this situation exists. This is not only wrong, but possibly devastating to an entire industry. Let's not mention the general sleeziness of the whole thing.

I think at this point all we can do is hope and pray for the animals and owners that Dan has sold to since possessing this snake that has been proven to have IBD in his collection. There is no refuting the evidence that has been posted for us all to see. He will most likely not care enough to change his ways, and the only way to stop this is to keep people informed. But, as sad as it is to say, there is not much more we can do. This will continue to harm his business, and hopefully that will make him change. I do not believe anything else will. And for us to all sit around and continue to rehash this thing and beat each other up is asinine to say the least. We are all (hopefully and supposedly) intelligent adults here, so we need to stop this bashing on each other and focus on the situation at hand, which is the idea of helping others who may have this issue pop up in their collection because of Dan's unethical business dealings, and to continue to EDUCATE each other on these big issues.

Kelly

 

[Phobos]

I think there are a few basic things that are left to say about this entire situation really. At least this is all I have left to say.

1. We are NOT saying Dan KNOWINGLY sent out a snake with IBD, only that a snake that was diagnosed with IBD was sold by Dan. There is a huge difference.
2. Dan has attempted to smooth-talk, lie, back peddle and simply avoid the issue altogether, and will not even acknowledge the fact COMPLETELY that this snake passed through his facility. The half-assed admissions that he recognized the report said IBD are not good enough. He is expected by the community in which he serves to own up and just admit that something is amiss.
3. Dan (and no other breeder) is expected to do the kind of testing required to ensure a perfectly IBD-free colony unless something DOES go wrong. The problem here is that Dan is not taking any precautions now that something HAS gone wrong, and most likely not even warning customers that he has now, that this situation exists. This is not only wrong, but possibly devastating to an entire industry. Let's not mention the general sleeziness of the whole thing.

I think at this point all we can do is hope and pray for the animals and owners that Dan has sold to since possessing this snake that has been proven to have IBD in his collection. There is no refuting the evidence that has been posted for us all to see. He will most likely not care enough to change his ways, and the only way to stop this is to keep people informed. But, as sad as it is to say, there is not much more we can do. This will continue to harm his business, and hopefully that will make him change. I do not believe anything else will. And for us to all sit around and continue to rehash this thing and beat each other up is asinine to say the least. We are all (hopefully and supposedly) intelligent adults here, so we need to stop this bashing on each other and focus on the situation at hand, which is the idea of helping others who may have this issue pop up in their collection because of Dan's unethical business dealings, and to continue to EDUCATE each other on these big issues.

Kelly

Kelly:

The only points I was trying to make was that:

1) My past dealing with Dan were straight forward, no fuss, no muss. Good animals were delivered.

3) There is no simple, inexpensive test for IBD. So IMO this is a non-starter when pointing a finger at anyone. If in doubt, sack the possible vector, clean up and control potiental spread. Don't wait to find mites, be pro-active and once a month..bomb like hell. I use bits of pest strips quite often just to toss in mite succeptable snake cages.

Al

 

[Craigh]

Am I the only one wonder what 2 was lol

 

[jrgh17]

3) There is no simple, inexpensive test for IBD. So IMO this is a non-starter when pointing a finger at anyone. If in doubt, sack the possible vector, clean up and control potiental spread. Don't wait to find mites, be pro-active and once a month..bomb like hell. I use bits of pest strips quite often just to toss in mite succeptable snake cages.

Exactly. It is expensive.

Dan says that the infected snake was never in contact with any of his collection, and therefore none of his collection could have IBD. Well, Dan's word doesn't mean much at all, given his actions and statements in this thread. He has also refused to post any pictures of the different areas he has for his personal collection and his imports. He also refused to outline his quarantine procedures, other than to say he has some.

Quite frankly, Dan's word is not worth much right now. I am not confident in his statement that he followed proper quarantine and keeps his collections separate.

The fact is that IBD was found in a snake that came from Dan. He is now responsible for doing a couple of things:

1) Admit that this is a problem.
2) Suspend sales indefinitely.
3) Inform buyers that purchased snakes from the same group that a snake has been found with IBD. It is then the buyers decision whether or not they choose to test their animals.
4) Have AT LEAST a few of the animals in his facility tested. Those tested should include animals most susceptible, or those that have been in at least minimal contact with many of his collection. They should include animals from his importing business and his personal collection.

Obviously, the results of those tests will dictate his next actions. If no snakes show inclusion bodies, he should be good to reopen. If any animal shows IBD, testing must be done for every animal (and any sick ones must be euthanized). Also, every customer that has received a snake from him since the infected snake came through must be notified.

Refusing to test now, however, is INFINITELY more damaging to his business than suspending sales and paying for testing.

 

[MikeCurtin]

Wow...it took Bruce Eisenmann to bump this thread down....that says something.

 

[Mckenzie_river_reptiles]

Wel let's keep it on top.

 

[Mckenzie_river_reptiles]

wel* well

 

[SPJ]

I use bits of pest strips quite often just to toss in mite succeptable snake cages.

Al

Not very smart to do.

 

[Phobos]

Not very smart to do.

I've been doing it for over 30 yrs without any problems... Mite/tick borne diseases are much worse than possible pesticide issues.

Al

 

[Phobos]

Exactly. It is expensive.

Dan says that the infected snake was never in contact with any of his collection, and therefore none of his collection could have IBD. Well, Dan's word doesn't mean much at all, given his actions and statements in this thread. He has also refused to post any pictures of the different areas he has for his personal collection and his imports. He also refused to outline his quarantine procedures, other than to say he has some.

Quite frankly, Dan's word is not worth much right now. I am not confident in his statement that he followed proper quarantine and keeps his collections separate.

The fact is that IBD was found in a snake that came from Dan. He is now responsible for doing a couple of things:

1) Admit that this is a problem.
2) Suspend sales indefinitely.
3) Inform buyers that purchased snakes from the same group that a snake has been found with IBD. It is then the buyers decision whether or not they choose to test their animals.
4) Have AT LEAST a few of the animals in his facility tested. Those tested should include animals most susceptible, or those that have been in at least minimal contact with many of his collection. They should include animals from his importing business and his personal collection.

Obviously, the results of those tests will dictate his next actions. If no snakes show inclusion bodies, he should be good to reopen. If any animal shows IBD, testing must be done for every animal (and any sick ones must be euthanized). Also, every customer that has received a snake from him since the infected snake came through must be notified.

Refusing to test now, however, is INFINITELY more damaging to his business than suspending sales and paying for testing.

Hold on I don't agree with your #4 but the other points (1, 3) except for the testing part are valid...Tests are deemed NOT conclusive according to the paper you sited:

Because the pathogenesis and the epidemiology of inclusion
body disease are uncertain, there is no clear preventive strategy.
The isolation of newly acquired animals for six months
to a year, and the treatment of possible mite infestations, is
recommended. Biopsies of the liver or oesophageal tonsils can
be an aid for the ‘entrance control’ of new animals. Because
boas may be asymptomatic carriers, some authors advise that
pythons should not be kept together with boas, or even in the
same collection (Bennett 1996, Keeble 2004).

And

Liver biopsies can provide information on the disease status of asymptomatic animals (Wozniak and others 2000, Keeble 2004; E. R.
Jacobson, personal communication), but the absence of
inclusions in such biopsies does not guarantee that an animal
is free of the disease.


Do take steps that are logical but not ridiculous, we have enough "knee jerk" reactions out world leaders, why add to pervasive stupidity. You and everybody on this forum isolates every animal for 6 to 12 months , right?

Al

 

[The BoidSmith]

Al,

You bring a very good point, it's very difficult to ask from anyone to put on hold all sales for an extended period of time, particularly those who do this for a living. There are a few things though that are unacceptable:

If you know you have a mite problem, you have to get rid of it before resuming reptile sales. Selling reptiles with insect control pest strips? That's completely irresponsible considering the possibility the IBD can be transmitted through them. At least halt all sales until you solve that problem.

Once an animal that allegedly left your facility has been diagnosed with IBD you need to do everything in your power to find out if in effect that animal went through your hands. Asking the general public or clients to demonstrate if that animal was yours is absolutely irresponsible. You need to be on top of it, contact the clinic, the experts, and be on top of the problem until it is solved. As pythons are more susceptible than boas and these can be asymptomatic carriers, it would be important for every boa keeper and dealer to keep a few ball pythons (because of their small size/maintenance requirements) as permanent residents of their facilities. These will act as "sentinel" animals in the event that IBD is going unnoticed through their collection. If any of those pythons end up with IBD symptoms or unexpectedly die it might be the first sign something is going on before all animals become affected. Of course this will not solve the problem of animals that are purchased and resold immediately, this will have to be addressed differently. How? Immediately track the origin of the animal that you received for resale that was diagnosed with IBD. This has only one solution KEEP ACCURATE RECORDS of each animal that enters and leaves your facility. Picture IDs are a must, yes it may not be practical, and yes it takes time. But how much time and money (in deaths and lost sales/clients) are lost with each health problem that goes unnoticed?

Regards.

 

[GottaLuvHerps]

3. Dan (and no other breeder) is expected to do the kind of testing required to ensure a perfectly IBD-free colony unless something DOES go wrong. The problem here is that Dan is not taking any precautions now that something HAS gone wrong, and most likely not even warning customers that he has now, that this situation exists. This is not only wrong, but possibly devastating to an entire industry. Let's not mention the general sleeziness of the whole thing.

Once an animal that allegedly left your facility has been diagnosed with IBD you need to do everything in your power to find out if in effect that animal went through your hands. Asking the general public or clients to demonstrate if that animal was yours is absolutely irresponsible. You need to be on top of it, contact the clinic, the experts, and be on top of the problem until it is solved.

I think we are all saying the same thing here, and that is what you are missing, Al C. We have SAID that there is no reason to do testing UNLESS THERE IS A PROBLEM. Dan HAS A PROBLEM that he is refusing to acknowledge. THAT is the issue. Customers are being sold snakes without being warned of the possible issues. Dan is continuing business AS NORMAL although a snake that passed through his facility was proven to have IBD. Why would having a few of his animals tested be out of the question? Expensive? SURE. Worth it in the end to save his own rear as well as possibly the ones of his customers? OF COURSE! It's called business, and you do what you must to make sure you conduct yourself in an ethical manner. Sometimes you have to pay to do that.

Al, we are not refuting that you had a good experience with Dan. That is wonderful. But the problem here is that what "wonderful experiences" as of late will turn out to be devastating to the customers he has now since he refuses to deal with this?

As much as I keep saying I am leaving this thread alone, I can't help but address the things that certain people are not seeing. Al, you seem like a genuine person, I just wish you could see past the smoke screen of your experience with Dan in the past and see the situation at hand...

Kelly

 

[The BoidSmith]

This is the root of the problem:

04/23/08 Pink Surinam Red-Tail Boa: 3 foot female: $250 DTS HERPS, INC. Boca Raton, Florida

04/23/08 Reddish Surinam Red-Tail Boa: 3 Foot Female: $300 DTS HERPS, INC. Boca Raton, Florida

04/23/08 Neat Chocolate Colored Amazon Tree Boa: $100 DTS HERPS, INC. Boca Raton, Florida

04/23/08 Nice Garden Amazon's: $50 DTS HERPS, INC. Boca Raton, Florida

04/22/08 Black Amazon Tree Boa: CB 07: $125 DTS HERPS, INC. Boca Raton, Florida

04/22/08 Patternless Emerald Tree Boa: $500 DTS HERPS, INC. Boca Raton, Florida

Even if we give Dan the benefit of the doubt and his own collection as he claims is not infected, where are these animals coming from? Are they all from the same supplier where the IBD diagnosed boa came from? Is he taking any measures as to track down where that animal came from? If he is, has he stopped purchasing from that exporter? Every importer knows how most animals are kept in those transient facilities.

Best regards.