Bad Guy Dav Kaufman - Beware

[btmansfi]

The fourth paragraph in the post you partially quoted addressed this aspect.

Correct, but I included the number so one could get a sense for the magnitude.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

That is nice, Milo.

I apologize for this response, Milo. It was rude of me.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Correct, but I included the number so one could get a sense for the magnitude.

No worries.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Correct, but I included the number so one could get a sense for the magnitude.

Just to add, a good number of breeders have gotten ten-streaks of a single result out of a 50/50 chance per result, for example. The probability of such is 0.0009765625, yet it still happens. That is why I tend to not couple the independent ones. It gives perspective to the relative rarity of the the likelihood of such an event, but those events still happen for many of us. It is great when the series of coin flips go our way and we feel proud, but it is the same chance as when none go our way for the same length of a series. That is also why my line gets drawn at twenty. I have had "real-world" results of 0.0009765625, but I have never known of a legitimate 0.00000095367431640625 streak where a 50/50 struck out twenty times and then went on to prove out. I do it to reduce doubt (or gain confidence if you prefer to look at it that way).

All that considered, I would still bet on the animal in question not being a leopard and never proving out.

 

[Milo Garcia]

It is probably to the point where he has no point to pay him back. He doesn't care or even want to pay him back...that looks quite obvious. The only point in which he was motivated to make it right is when he was getting a BOI thread threat. He doesn't care about his costumers he just cares about his image.

Who would honestly deal with Mr. Kaufman after this no matter what he does? I sure as heck wouldn't. If it takes this much to get a deserving refund that is just pathetic. Hopefully his image will be tarnished enough to cost him even more money in the long run.

I agree 100%!!! Regardless of what Dav does or does not do. This is definitely a big ketchup stain on a solid white T-shirt he wears from now on. Regardless of how he tries to clean it up or make it disappear, it will always be there. But at his own fault.. Dav seems that you brought this upon yourself my man.

Milo

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

I hope Dav goes for the return-and-purchase refund option that Dan suggested. It should compensate Randy for the likely incorrect sale/purchase itself and it takes responsibility for the mistake.

The lost potential in the offspring is unknown, as no number of offspring would be assured and the span of genetic identities would not be assured aside from being het for whatever is homozygous in the sire.

 

[btmansfi]

I hope Dav goes for the return-and-purchase refund option that Dan suggested. It should compensate Randy for the likely incorrect sale/purchase itself and it takes responsibility for the mistake.

The lost potential in the offspring is unknown, as no number of offspring would be assured and the span of genetic identities would not be assured aside from being het for whatever is homozygous in the sire.

Had Dave responded early on, I would agree that the return and purchase option would have sufficed.

But considering that this had dragged on for 2 years and Dave clearly is not owning up to the mistake (even lying in his stories going from it originally being produced and guaranteed in his ad to then a broker deal to then being a trade), I would personally estimate the total loss (both actual and economic) incurred and ask for that amount. Amount of the snake purchased, loss on future offspring, etc. In reality that's what a court would do because the loss that you incurred was more than just the purchase price. So why should Dave be treated any differently, especially given his nonchalant attitude towards the situation. If anything, maybe Dave will learn a valuable lesson from it. But most likely he will not.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Had Dave responded early on, I would agree that the return and purchase option would have sufficed.

But considering that this had dragged on for 2 years and Dave clearly is not owning up to the mistake (even lying in his stories going from it originally being produced and guaranteed in his ad to then a broker deal to then being a trade), I would personally estimate the total loss (both actual and economic) incurred and ask for that amount. Amount of the snake purchased, loss on future offspring, etc. In reality that's what a court would do because the loss that you incurred was more than just the purchase price. So why should Dave be treated any differently, especially given his nonchalant attitude towards the situation. If anything, maybe Dave will learn a valuable lesson from it. But most likely he will not.

The problem with the offspring-based loss is there is no way at all to reliably predict what the offspring would be in terms of the contribution from the sire aside from being het pied (and all of the offspring actually produced were already at least that). Even going by probabilities, it would only be a completely fabricated number. Potential results, but not results.

 

[btmansfi]

The problem with the offspring-based loss is there is no way at all to reliably predict what the offspring would be in terms of the contribution from the sire aside from being het pied (and all of the offspring actually produced were already at least that). Even going by probabilities, it would only be a completely fabricated number. Potential results, but not results.

But a court would apply some logical reasoning to the case. They'd have to; how else would they arrive at a conclusion? People get awarded pain and suffering all the time and most of the time those numbers are pulled out of thin air. At least in this case there are mathematical probabilities, selling prices, etc that can be used to arrive a reasonable conclusion, give or take some margin of error.

Certainly Randy should be due more than $1,545. For one, think of the time value of money. $1,545 today is worth less than it was 2 years ago when Randy paid for the snake. At a minimum Dave should owe him $1,545 in today's dollars which would be more like $1,600 minimum.

Moral of the story - take care of your financial obligations early on. The longer you wait, the worse off you'll be. I for one can promise you that I'll never purchase a snake from Dave and I have never talked to him or met him in my life. Don't even know what he looks like. But I sure am not willing to give someone thousands of my dollars when I can't be certain that (1) what they're selling is in fact what they're advertising it as and (2) they have the means to compensate me if something goes wrong.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

But a court would apply some logical reasoning to the case. They'd have to; how else would they arrive at a conclusion? People get awarded pain and suffering all the time and most of the time those numbers are pulled out of thin air. At least in this case there are mathematical probabilities, selling prices, etc that can be used to arrive a reasonable conclusion, give or take some margin of error.

Certainly Randy should be due more than $1,545. For one, think of the time value of money. $1,545 today is worth less than it was 2 years ago when Randy paid for the snake. At a minimum Dave should owe him $1,545 in today's dollars which would be more like $1,600 minimum.

Moral of the story - take care of your financial obligations early on. The longer you wait, the worse off you'll be. I for one can promise you that I'll never purchase a snake from Dave and I have never talked to him or met him in my life. Don't even know what he looks like. But I sure am not willing to give someone thousands of my dollars when I can't be certain that (1) what they're selling is in fact what they're advertising it as and (2) they have the means to compensate me if something goes wrong.

One could counter-argue Randy could also have easily gotten a less valuable result like 16-17 slugs. I do not consider it so cut-and-dry as popping it into a theoretical calculator for result from pairings and then trying to apply those to average clutch sizes. If you want to invoke the time-value of money, I would not complain for the original purchase. That would mean something like $1607.57 instead of $1545 if we are talking about $1545 2012 dollars with inflation adjustment to 2015 dollars. Whether adjusted for inflation or not, I think a return-for-refund is pretty reasonable.

 

[45lcrevolver]

So is that how you sell your animals? "Well it looks like it is so ill sell it like it is"????? All Hets look a like but you still have to guarantee that what you sell is carrying the gene you claim, period. Do you sell hets then when they don't prove out you tell your customer... Well it looked like a het?

 

[45lcrevolver]

Originally Posted by Dan Krull View Post
If the snake "looked like a leopard" as the op stated, and it was convincing enough to convince three ball python breeders, including the buyer who was so convinced that he spent 1500 dollars on it, I would suggest that no one is at fault. Whenever we buy something, we must take on a certain amount of risk. It appears to be a leopard. Case closed. As I understand it, the leopard gene is thought to be dominant, and can be a little hard to pin down. You aren't dealing with a guaranteed allele like albinism where you can be 100% certain of the genetics. If the breeder bred a leopard which was carrying one copy of that allele, then you would expect 1/2 of the clutch, statistically, to be visual leopards. If one of those offspring "looked like a leopard" then there is absolutely nothing unethical about selling it as one. If it turned out not to be, as is claimed, that would be an unfortunate coincidence, not a misrepresentation.

Response^^^^^^^

 

[Lucille]

But a court would apply some logical reasoning to the case. They'd have to; how else would they arrive at a conclusion? People get awarded pain and suffering all the time and most of the time those numbers are pulled out of thin air.

No. There are studies, evidence to be presented, experts to be called (and paid).
And once this path is chosen, sometimes there is a lesser award, and sometimes the costs involved can decimate any award given.
I don't think the path of extras to be piled on is always fruitful. As I pointed out, it is a process, and that process can be long and expensive.

Here, the peer pressure to settle is high, and very public. A rapid, reasonable settlement might be a more productive idea.

 

[CwnAnnwn]

All the speculation aside, Mr Foster just wants his money back. He does not seem to want anything extra.

So...

Mr Kaufman, or who ever is watching the thread for him.

The last offer I saw going.

Mr. Kaufman would pay Mr Foster 1,545 dollars plus return shipping and insurance.

Mr. Foster would return the python bought from Mr Kaufman as soon as it can be done safely. Remember we have an innocent python in this.

That is the latest deal.

I am sure we can get Mr. Foster to agree to the terms, if Mr Kaufman would agree.

Mr Kaufman the ball is in your court.

 

[Randy F]

You know I just remembered something today. After seeing the original ad one thing stuck out. When we made the deal he talked about helpers 3 because he was suppose to include a copy of herpers and herpers 2 with the snake. When we talked a year ago I mentioned that I did not get any leopards much like the herpers dvd's. Now I cannot say that I remember him saying that's where the money was going, but I also cannot see why else we would have talked about it? I talk to many people about snakes and do not talk about anything else other than what I am talking to them about.

 

[Randy F]

Where people are asking for who the original breeder was, it's completely irrelevant now. This has gone on for 3 weeks as of tomorrow. He has had enough time to come up with the response he did. He can ask his mom for all we know to be this "phantom" breeder to say that it was a leopard x leopard breeding so it's a super leopard and since all my clutches have been to chihuahua's and I have not made a yapping snake that's good in street tacos I am mad!

As for all the inconsistency in the story of whose it was and where the money all went I have concluded it to one word "lie." I still hope that he honestly did not know what it was, but it sure has a lot of pattern in common with his pied in the only pictures of his snakes in that one link.

If he has been in this industry for 20 years he would technically made a life out of it. When you put that dedication to something you either really truely love it or just found a way to not get a job. The people who truely love something are very passionate about it. I am very fortunate enough to call Brian Barczyk my friend, and when he talks about snakes he lights up like a little kid. These snakes cost approximately $100 each to take care of for a year. This means if a male sires 4 clutches then each clutch break even point is $125. Anyone that truely loves the industry to make it their life would know this and want it to be enjoyable for everyone. This type person would bend over backwards to help and takes the animals before money. This person would replace a dissatisfied customer with a snake they have, and already hit the break even amount by 3 times.


So reading everyone's solution as what he should do only has two flaws

1) if he was going to do anything he already would have.
2) why would he give me anything now since after all I have done to him?

I have another option that will completely settle it done, finished, over and show the world if Dav Kaufman is a true herper or just loves money. Unfortunately someone just pulled up to look at some snakes and get my old display cases. I will be back shortly and throw it out there.........to be continued

 

[CwnAnnwn]

I have another option that will completely settle it done, finished, over and show the world if Dav Kaufman is a true herper or just loves money. Unfortunately someone just pulled up to look at some snakes and get my old display cases. I will be back shortly and throw it out there.........to be continued

But Mr Foster, we all have learned who does it for the love of snake and the hobby, and who does it for the money.

I don't do pythons, I am a boa person. I am a locality boa person (peruvian long tails, peruvian rainbow...ect). I keep them because I love them.

But if I was to buy a python tomorrow, you would be one of the first people I would shop at, because in this thread, you show you loved your animals more then money. When you where faced with the same problem. You handed over the money and you handed over another snake to make up for it. The money was never in consideration. Only the health of the animal and the happiness of your customer.

Mr Kaufman has shown the ugly horrible part of this hobby. The ones that will only be in this hobby for the money. And this thread showed everyone which person to buy from. You have made customers today.

 

[Randy F]

ok back.....sorry get started talking about snakes and I lose time! Might have help with a website finally though.

So we are talking about $1545 here to be paid back by Dav Kaufman for the missing main gene in this snake. Here is the break down of my offer to put Dav back in good standing with this community and prove what he is in it for. This does involve people here though so pay attention

First Dav is to pay Fauna classifieds $545 to further help fund this site so all can enjoy it. This money will help Rich keep it up and add enhancements to it. As much as I would like to nudge Rich to make me an endowment member for my "Contribution" I would only ask that he atleast give me karma.....never had karma from the big man! Closest was having April slap my pee pee once....it was worth it

Second Dav make a $1000 donation to USARK in the name of fauna classifieds so that it will help them further the support of fighting to keep our rights to keep, enjoy, and love our animals. Rich will be able to take the $1000 donation tax credit.....because the big man gave me karma

Third I am keeping the snake that I have housed, fed, and paid for, not getting a single cent for the missing main gene.

I do know that is a bit demanding of me but all I can say is F**K IT! I am here for my animals, I coach little league to be a positive role model for my son, I will work for my money.....Dav, what are you here for buddy? When should Rich expect the credit card?

also, I do want it known that from my last post.....no chihuahua's were hurt in the breeding with the snake

 

[Randy F]

oh sorry.....does anyone have facebook and the other places he sells snakes and looks at to let him know on there that this is on the table here?

 

[ORTALLERICO]

This is such a great deal! Mr. Kaufman we will wait on you, let's see if you really are in it for the love of reptiles.