Inquiry David Freeman Carolina Classic Dragons

[Snake-Queen]

I do not have a picture of the one that lived. Anthony does. I can get some good ones tomorrow if it really matters. Point is, I had a specific plan for the dragon that died as it was a higher quality trans IN MY OPINION. I was going to breed it to a het trans male. I can tell you from experience that taking a het to a partial trans doesn't result in the kind of offspring I like to produce. So, the dragon that died is more valuable to me. So maybe some on here think a visible hypo is more valuable. See where I am going here? It is all subjective. I have agreed to accept $400 and split it down the middle. Anyone, including me, giving their opinion on value, is just that, giving their opinion. If Anthony is so convinced that the living dragon is worth more, then why doesn't he just let me return the dragon and he refund me in full and then he sells the dragon for what he thinks it is worth? This offer was given to him earlier today but he didn't want to do it.

I see where you are going.

As this was a package deal, then in my opinion, half should be returned. She was a beautiful girl.

But you are right, it is a matter of opinion on which was worth more. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Anthony, I have a question for you ... Did you call Dave ignorant, based on his statement that he thought the dead dragon was worth more? I have seen nothing in Dave's emails to indicate that he is ignorant or a bully. It is a tragedy that she died, but you need to make good on you LAG, and not sound rude when you do it.

well if tom told me she was a partial trans then it must have been whispered to me when i was in a different room. ill tell you what, since you are by far the more ignorant person i have ever had to deal with in my life ill have your 400$ in your paypal asap. i have seen people get drug through the mud who talk with more respect then you do. i guess it may be because you feel like you have been around for a while so you can talk to people any way you want and be rude and disrespectful and bully your way into what you want, i heard so many bad things about you after you paypal'd me that money, and people were right i shouldn't have dealt with you. this was a clear freak accident. your talking to me like i purposely did it and that i told you your not getting anything back for it. i dont know who you think you are talking to me like that "paypal me by this afternoon" it takes days to transfer money IN and OUT of paypal, i don't keep money sitting in my paypal account. you will have your money in your account the SECOND paypal tells me its available. i hope you can buy a little respect with the 400$ so next time a freak accident occurs you don't act like such a rude person. i have been in far worse situations then this where people have sold me fake double hets then a year later i prove them fake. and i have never gotten on someone like this and have been this ignorant i gave them time to fix it before i did anything. you really represent this HOBBY in a terrible way with how you talk to people. you should probably take a step back, because these are things i heard before i dealt with you and now they are things i know personally. the immediate second that money is available to send you on paypal you will have it in your account. good luck with everything with the dachiu girl.

Also, if you don't feel that the one that died is worth $400, then allow Dave to ship the other one back and you can refund the $800.

 

[Chrisw]

Anthony, Dave has suggested two options. Either a refund on half of the amount paid, or he will ship the other dragon back for a full refund. If you really think the one that survived is the best of the two, you shouldnt have a problem with this as Dave would be the one out of a dragon that is worth more than $400. Both of his options are fair.

 

[yourbeat]

wow....so now im being profiled because of other hobbys?

Let's check out some facts here... I think Dave Freeman understands dragons and how to care for them... The simple fact that Dave loves his hobby and his business and cares about the quality of his dragons speaks volumes. Look at that poor dragon that died... it was beautiful... That said any question on what he did when receiving a dying or dead dragon plays zero part in any of this...

And i'm sorry anyone with the email mdskillz1717 and pictures of guns does not give me faith in a dragon breeder of quality and also bringing it on here to discredit someone instead of dealing like mature adults over a business deal gets zero respect from me. If Dave sent me a dead dragon he would gladly compensate for it. The same should be done in this deal. Yes it is a bummer for both parties but you know what... think about the dragon. She had zero say in it . - Good luck.

ok all i can say to that statement is...wow, im glad i don't have such close minded people trying to defend me. first of all im not the first person on fauna who has posted pictures of guns. Yes i am a fan of guns it is one of my many hobby's just like reptiles. i think there's something written about guns in that thing called the 2nd amendment? yeah thats the one... There is NOTHING wrong with me posting pictures of my other hobby on my personal avatar and profile page. If you are that close minded to profile me a bad person because i like guns then so be it, your entitled to that i guess.

Secondly how does an email i made years ago reflect the type of person again all i can say is wow...i don't have a website so i use my personal email i created years ago, but again if that makes me a bad person then again so be it.

and lastly i never came in here and said anything bad about dave or anything close. i posted questions i had about the situation, i never said Dave wasn't getting his money back ever. i actually offered him 300$ in return because the dragon that died was clearly the cheaper of the 2 he got. daves opinion on which dragon was worth more to him does not in any way reflect the market value of genetics. both dragons were almost twins in color and pattern except one was a visual hypo and trans. that being said obviously the hypo trans is worth more money. i offered Dave 300$ for the trans dragon that died and he threw it back in my face.

Again i just came in here to see peoples opinions about the situation, theres no need to be closed minded and mock me and judge me about my email name and my hobbys, so thank you for shedding some light on what type of person you are.

here is one picture of each female sent...
picture one is the supposed inferior Hypo trans that Dave keeps playing off as some worthless dragon.....

 

[Snake-Queen]

They are both beautiful.

If you disagree with Dave on returning $400, why do you not accept his offer to send the remaining dragon back for a full refund?

 

[Chrisw]

Dave called the dragon worthless?

So which of Dave's two options are you going to go with? Both are more than fair.

 

[jellyfishrhythm]

Deep breath...and...GO!

Firstly,

I tend to agree with Anthony that he shouldn't be profiled for his apparent "hobbies" and his allegedly arcane e-mail address. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I made the very same point last week in the thread about Kathy Weeks. That has no bearing on whether or not you're handling this transaction and your customer's justified dissatisfaction properly and professionally, just as Kathy's personal life or physical ability/disability had nothing to do with whether or not she stole the geckos from the Chicago show in Tinley Park.

Sadly though, just as in the other situation, profiled or not, your case has a ton of holes in it, Anthony.

You sold Dave both dragons for $800 without discussing perceived value of each of them independently. Fine. Let's go on with the theory that they were sold as a whole single unit then. Since ahead of time, no arrangements were made, you have to rely on good ole' logic to solve this. You sent Dave the package worth $800. Half of it is dead. You owe him $400. Value is subjective, I know. Personally, I'm on the side that the hypo partial trans girl would be worth more, but again, that doesn't really matter. He offered to accept the refund for half, and that's the right thing to do. If your thoughts indicate that the other dragon, the living one, is worth more, accept her back for a full refund. Plenty of other people saw that ad, I'm sure you could turn around and sell her. Bottom line: Dave's offers, both of them, are professionally sound and equally equitable. Take one, and save some face. The issues with how the girls were shipped is another subject entirely - and don't even get me started on the "why did it take 2 hours for him to tell me" -- it's never a pleasant thing to have to tell a seller: "look, you send me a dead lizard"...and I don't know about you, I take photos from the second I open a box with a shipped reptile, so that every step is documented JUST IN CASE something like this happens. It made sense that the photo was taken before the attempted water-revival. Nit-picking, and for what? I guarantee you the second he saw that she was indeed not breathing, he put the camera down and starting going through the mental emergency handbook.

I'm taking issue with the fact that in the beginning, when you were painting yourself as the "concerned businessperson" (scare quotes!) who was "just trying to make things right with a customer" who you "respected" and "weren't trying to attack", you conveniently didn't see the point in posting the e-mail thread.

Hmm...I wonder why.

Perhaps it's because of the fact that when offered two completely logical solutions to the problem that theoretically, it is your responsibility to rectify properly, you flew off the handle and started in with the "he-said, she-said" hearsay garbage, the unfounded personal attacks, and so on and so forth. Hypocrisy is not a good look on anyone, Anthony. You knew that if that surfaced, it would threaten your credibility in this matter. Dave is good guy, an excellent friend, a great herper, and above all, he's thorough. If you would have recognized that from the beginning, you would've known right away that he would post the e-mail thread. He has nothing to hide. You did. Minus one point for selective material evidence.

I'd be irritated too if I were given the run-around for a week, only to find at the 89th hour that the main purpose of my purchase was rendered obsolete. But still, Dave maintained the professional upper hand and didn't resort to personal attacks to try and prove a point.

Send him the $400, and try not to do it kicking and screaming.

Dave, scrolling down to the bottom of this page just shows "Carolina Classic Dragons/Dave Freeman" sitting pretty alongside a bunch of big green check marks. Don't sweat this.

 

[jellyfishrhythm]

Also, for the record, I didn't find it necessary to restate how awful and tragic it is that the poor, sweet dragon arrived dead, particularly considering the fact that she appeared to have been, to the naked eye, in good health. Nobody is disputing that, so if I came off as cold and callous, I apologize. The nuts and bolts of this brouhaha have less to do with the dragons themselves than the manner in which the transaction was handled.

 

[Sushi Dragons]

 

[dragonluver83]

Before I post i would like to state that I am pretty neutral in this situation. I respect David and his work. As a fellow breeder I would not hesitate to recommend David to anyone.

An as for Anthony, he is a new guy trying to get started. He asks alot of question (trust me ) and has a passion for this hobby.

As for the situation, I know Anthony doesnt have the rep. or credibility. But after time has gone by I know he's not trying to get over on anyone.

Let's check out some facts here... I think Dave Freeman understands dragons and how to care for them... The simple fact that Dave loves his hobby and his business and cares about the quality of his dragons speaks volumes.

Thats very nice, but what does it has to do with the d.o.a.?

Hey maybe thats a good point. Dave knows his stuff, has been around awhile. Why did he wait 2 hrs for first contact on a d.o.a. ? I think thats the only thing I dont like.

Did that dragon sit in the box for two hours inside, with a heat pack? Did he open the box at the time of arrival and it was dead? Then tried to revive it?

And i'm sorry anyone with the email mdskillz1717 and pictures of guns does not give me faith in a dragon breeder of quality and also bringing it on here to discredit someone instead of dealing like mature adults over a business deal gets zero respect from me.

Judging a book by it's cover??? You will learn one day my friend.
Pictures and hobbies dont tell you anything about a man's business eithic's.
My hobbies and business ethic's are black and white.

If Dave sent me a dead dragon he would gladly compensate for it.

Really has this happened? If you waited 2 hours to contact David to say "hey your dragon is dead" Would his first response be okay your replacement will be shipped out tomorrow? (no offense dave trying to make a point)

Dave, Do you have any pictures of the dragon that lived? If the point of discontent is the worth of each dragon, a few pictures for the members to compare might help.

You say the one that died is the more expensive dragon and the OP says it is the one that lived. So maybe with a few pics of the live one, some of this he said, he said could be cleared.

As David has stated its a matter of opinion. BUT the coloration of the two animals are close to the same. So in this case the translucent (one that died) is worth less. The only time a dragon of lesser genetic's is worth more than a higher genetic animal, is based on color. Like if that translucent was solid orange or solid red. Thats usually the ONLY time something of lower genetic's is more expensive.

Imo, Dave did notify you within a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't matter if he tried to revive her. I'd be more concerned if he didn't care enough to try. I don't remember if the price included shipping, but if it did, I'd deduct shipping costs and refund half of the balance.
:eek3:

I am going to agree with you. Except on the notifying time. Two hours after receiving a d.o.a. Is alittle long. Beings it is David I personally WOULD give him the benefit of doubt by saying it was a D.O.A. And Working on a refund.

As for the refund. I think you guys should meet in the middle. Dave you want 400. IMHO its not fair for a 400 split.... The hypo trans IS worth more.

If you take shipping (anthony paid for) deduct it which was $65

total is $735 divided by two is $367.50......

NOW Anthony said 300 Dave wants 400. Dave only paid 367.50 for the animal. Why and the hell should he get 400 back?

SO why cant both of you do 350 and put this to bed???

I see where you are going.

As this was a package deal, then in my opinion, half should be returned. She was a beautiful girl.

So if you sold two cars to a buyer. You sold your mercedes for 6000 and your ford pinto for 500. and the pinto quit running and the customer wanted half of that 6500 hundred back, you would refund them 3250 for the pinto???

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all.

An the price is in the hands of the seller.

I hate to break up the N.C. ban wagon but telling this man to take option A or option B isnt going to get David any money back. This man can walk away and not give him anything. So lets try working with each other.

Since the price of one dragon was only 367.50 ( not to mention Anthony paid paypal fees on 800 bucks)

Can we get 350 to resolve it? You both are more mature than this...

 

[jellyfishrhythm]

I hate to break up the N.C. ban wagon but telling this man to take option A or option B isnt going to get David any money back. This man can walk away and not give him anything. So lets try working with each other.

"The NC Bandwagon" - ? ...low blow, Tom. Come on. Dave could've been the Cryptkeeper living in a jaunty organic bungalow in Montevideo, and my opinion would've been the same. Yes, the herp community in North Carolina is growing and is close knit, but don't mistake our camaraderie for ignorant foolhardiness. Not fair.

I didn't agree with the personal attacks either, I stated that - - but since the "price is in the eye of the seller", it needed to be made ahead of time. The only price that was agreed upon was $800. It's not up to us to decide if the hypo-trans was the "Mercedes" or the "Pinto" - but yeah, if price is up to the seller, which I fully agree, it is - - if it's a package deal that requires itemizing, it needs to be dictated ahead of time. It seems marginally convenient that after the fact, the one that died is priced as the dragon of lesser value by the complainant.

 

[Sushi Dragons]

I hate to break up the N.C. ban wagon but telling this man to take option A or option B isnt going to get David any money back. This man can walk away and not give him anything. So lets try working with each other.

Since the price of one dragon was only 367.50 ( not to mention Anthony paid paypal fees on 800 bucks)

Can we get 350 to resolve it? You both are more mature than this...

I agree that giving the seller any form of ultimatum isn't a good idea. And I do agree that meeting in the middle is fair. But please don't lump everyone from NC into a "band wagon." I personally would like to think that my opinions are not based solely on locality and a "hip hip hurray for the home team" demeanor.

 

[Sushi Dragons]

It seems marginally convenient that after the fact, the one that died is priced as the dragon of lesser value by the complainant.

Exactly. Personal opinions of quality aside (both were gorgeous animals in their own right), it is amusing to see the seller favor the live dragon and the buyer favor the deceased.

Regardless, without a written TOS or receipt confirming the individual value of each animal, a 50/50 split does seem like the only amicable solution.

 

[dragonluver83]

"The NC Bandwagon" - ? ...low blow, Tom. Come on. Dave could've been the Cryptkeeper living in a jaunty organic bungalow in Montevideo, and my opinion would've been the same. Yes, the herp community in North Carolina is growing and is close knit, but don't mistake our camaraderie for ignorant foolhardiness. Not fair.

I didn't agree with the personal attacks either, I stated that - - but since the "price is in the eye of the seller", it needed to be made ahead of time. The only price that was agreed upon was $800. It's not up to us to decide if the hypo-trans was the "Mercedes" or the "Pinto" - but yeah, if price is up to the seller, which I fully agree, it is - - if it's a package deal that requires itemizing, it needs to be dictated ahead of time. It seems marginally convenient that after the fact, the one that died is priced as the dragon of lesser value by the complainant.

Call it how I seen it. Sorry alot of people dont like the truth. I see everyone bombarding Anthony and everyone is from N.C. except one.

telling Anthony to take one or the other. LOL..

Please fill me in on when the buyer and his customers/friends is aloud to set the standards/ terms of service?

No there was no negotiating of what each individual dragon was worth. But even I wouldnt refund more than what was spent on a animal. An I have given replacements to others that shouldnt have gotten them.

I agree that giving the seller any form of ultimatum isn't a good idea. And I do agree that meeting in the middle is fair. But please don't lump everyone from NC into a "band wagon." I personally would like to think that my opinions are not based solely on locality and a "hip hip hurray for the home team" demeanor.

Again, I call it how I see it. No offense but I see a N.C. hate wagon. Telling the seller what he needs to do and how he needs to do it. An save face. Do it now. Strong words to a guy with David's 800 bucks. Be easy kiddo.

YOU and STEPH are regs on the b.o.i.'s so maybe it wasnt so much directed at you, but you two certainly didnt help. Lol.

 

[dragonluver83]

I agree that giving the seller any form of ultimatum isn't a good idea. And I do agree that meeting in the middle is fair. But please don't lump everyone from NC into a "band wagon." I personally would like to think that my opinions are not based solely on locality and a "hip hip hurray for the home team" demeanor.

Exactly. Personal opinions of quality aside (both were gorgeous animals in their own right), it is amusing to see the seller favor the live dragon and the buyer favor the deceased.

Regardless, without a written TOS or receipt confirming the individual value of each animal, a 50/50 split does seem like the only amicable solution.

Im lost meeting in the middle (which was my offer) was 350. your second post says 50 50 which is 400. which one are you going with?

Again, after shipping and paypal fees. the cost of each dragon is under 367.50. WHY IS HE GETTING 400 BACK? he didnt spend 400 for each dragon!!!

 

[Khaldrago]

Let's all hug it out...

Dragonluver83 - Since you felt the need to take my opinion on this incident and analyze it to death i'll go ahead and respond to help you out a little.

((Judging a book by it's cover??? You will learn one day my friend.
Pictures and hobbies dont tell you anything about a man's business eithic's.
My hobbies and business ethic's are black and white.)) ... hmm alright...

I feel you may be limiting your potential success in Business/Marketing 101... Pictures and hobbies perhaps don't tell YOU " YOURSELF " about YOUR business ethics because YOU think your hobbies and business ethics are black and white... but YOU are missing the entire perception piece from potential customers who don't know anything about you... if you understand marketing and business you know that first impressions and perceptions are huge!!! Nothing " yourbeat " shows has me drooling to take him serious as a breeder of high quality dragons.

That said...

If "yourbeat" and David had the exact same dragons for sale on this site for an example based off first glance and impression i'm going to go with David. A nice picture of a Citrus dragon with logo and classy email and name for a business. Versus "yourbeats"..."2 guns" and some saying that sounds cocky with an email of "mdskillz1717". ( That's all my point was my... " friend " ). Cheers! Good luck in the future.

 

[Focal]

As for the buyer being defensive, I would have been too. Asking why it took two hours to contact the seller about a DOA insinuates the seller killed it. Unless the dragon was intentionally killed, I don't see it dying in 2 hours unless it was the result of shipping, just my opinion. If you can't guarantee your lizard to live at least 24 hours after arrival, then you should make that clear to the buyer before the sale. Often these details are not discussed beforehand because it can scare a buyer away.

Since the price of one dragon was only 367.50 ( not to mention Anthony paid paypal fees on 800 bucks)

If Anthony takes the proper refund route, he wouldn't have to pay the PayPal fees on the money returned. I believe when the money is refunded so are the fees for that amount. Sending the money back as a different transaction will double the fees and only benefit PayPal. I would recommend the refund process.


This is a scary situation and sucks for both parties, but honestly, I would have refunded the $400 right after being notified. If this was a someone without a rep, I might ask for more details, but a good rep should stand for something. Honestly, good customers will be reluctant to purchase from someone that won't take their word or trouble them about a refund. I understand the bad customers ruin this, but you should also be selective on who you sell to. In this case I would have trusted the buyer. No offense to the OP, just my opinion on the matter as requested.

 

[KelliH]

The animal arrived DOA. Refund the buyer's money! If there was no set amount for each dragon then refund half of the amount sent (minus shipping) like Tom has said. I don't understand how there could even be a question about what to do in this particular situation.

 

[CarolinaClassicDragons]

I am glad to see that the last 3 posts weren't from someone residing in North Carolina!

Oh Tom Clarke...learned even more about you in this thread. As a breeder, I cannot believe you place more value on phenotype over genotype. I certainly do not. You bring up color? You think the one that died had inferior color? Cmon! Once again, so subjective but I will bet you the majority of people would choose the color of the trans that died over this partial trans.

I now know who you were referring to Anthony All those bad things you heard about me.

I just went and looked at my cell phone log and I called Tom at 11:44 which means I opened the box earlier than that. I am guessing the package got here sometime after 10:00. So, it wasn't two hours. We all ship dragons that have been in boxes far longer with no ill effects so trying to question 2 hours or less is so trivial. Just for the record, I was shocked he put a heat pack in that box! They were coming to NC and are temps were in the mid 80's! Seriously? And you do it without even communicating the fact you did it, how you shipped it or providing any tracking information.

Just send the $367.50. If you honestly think Anthony started this thread over whether he should pay $300 or $400, you are kidding yourself. This wasn't an inquiry. This was a desperate attempt to take this public and hope that someone might in one way or another agree with him, jump on his bandwagon, and he could weazel his way out of having to pay anything. I offered to let him just pay $100 a week for 4 weeks or if he needed more time to take it as I felt for the situation he was in. He didn't want this dragon to die but it did. I didn't bring this issue to a public forum, he did.

 

[Focal]

One other suggestion I have, probably just my preference, but I would tape/secure the heat pack to the bottom of the top styrofoam piece. I once received a snake that was almost cooked because the pack was directly on her and she could not move away from it. She was severly dehydrated and it might have been what lead to her RI (or at least helped bring it out) that I discoved the night after receiving her.