Inquiry David Freeman Carolina Classic Dragons

[Sushi Dragons]

No offense but I see a N.C. hate wagon.

How can that not be offensive? My opinion on the matter and where I happen to live are completely irrelevant. Besides, I'm a Virginian born and raised. I just happen to live in North Carolina now.

Telling the seller what he needs to do and how he needs to do it. An save face. Do it now. Strong words to a guy with David's 800 bucks. Be easy kiddo.

The seller came on here asking for advice. He got it. And to answer your question, 50/50 split should be without shipping costs, as you said. But again, that's my personal opinion as a person, not as part of a "hate wagon"

YOU and STEPH are regs on the b.o.i.'s so maybe it wasnt so much directed at you, but you two certainly didnt help. Lol.

Again with the NC stuff? As regulars shouldn't that mean that we are less likely to jump on a band wagon. Have we not proven ourselves as independent thinkers?




On a different note, who actually packaged and shipped the dragon? Anthony, did you use someone else's materials on your own, or did you just drop off the dragon at the shipper's place?

Don't get me wrong, the seller and buyer are the only two key parties here, but if all this comes down to bad shipping (pillow cases with holes, heat packs, etc), who was the actual shipper?

 

[jellyfishrhythm]

Tom, how did it go from an NC "bandwagon" to an NC "hate wagon" - ? Eesh! And like Rachel, while I reside in NC, I'm a born and raised New Yorker. Geo-spatial proximity to the subject of the inquiry means nothing. Rachel is 100% right, as "regulars", we have certainly proven ourselves to be independent thinkers. And, to echo her sentiment again, how could we NOT be offended by that?

Who are you referring to as "kiddo", may I ask? ...we don't allow children on our "hate wagon" >.<

...alas, I digress. That's off topic, but you brought it up. I wasn't going to let that one slide.

The nuts and bolts of this altercation are black and white. The accusing party brought all of this to a public forum that is NOTORIOUS for excellent sleuthing skills and scathing, blatant honesty. It appears he's not happy with the advice he's received. Perhaps instead the initial post should've read "tell me what I want to hear" - ?

I'm not 100% convinced that Dave should be responsible for the shipping, either, especially considering that up to this point, all evidence points to poor shipping as the main culprit in that poor dragon's demise. He's responsible for half the shipping cost at most. Go ahead and hunt through the bowels of the BOI and look for landmark cases dealing with this exact thing. They're all resolved in the same fashion. The dragon arrived dead. He deserves a refund. End of story.

... hindsight is indeed always 20/20.

 

[Snake-Queen]

So if you sold two cars to a buyer. You sold your mercedes for 6000 and your ford pinto for 500. and the pinto quit running and the customer wanted half of that 6500 hundred back, you would refund them 3250 for the pinto???



An the price is in the hands of the seller.

The difference being that if you sold 2 cars, one worth substantially more than the other, the price of each would be clearly defined ... which it was not in this case.

I hate to break up the N.C. ban wagon but telling this man to take option A or option B isnt going to get David any money back.

Just because the people posting happen to live in NC, doesn't mean we are a "band/hate" wagon.
I happen to have lived in GA most of my life. Living in NC does not sway my opinion on this matter.

The OP sold 2 dragons for $800 shipped, one arrived DOA. As the dragon, in my opinion died because of improper packaging, the buyer is entitled to the amount of the dragon plus half of the shipping. The DOA looked perfectly healthy and would have lived, IMO, had it been shipped in a large deli container or something similar.

Whether or not, the other one is genetically superior, is of no concern here ... there was no discussion of individual price for each dragon.

I don't think the seller is a bad guy, or wanted this to happen, but it did and it is up to him to make it right.


OFF TOPIC, sort of ... if I was buying the dragons, the DOA would have been the one I wanted, due to the strong coloration.

 

[reptilebaby]

I don't think the dragons should have been left in the box with a heat pack inside the house upon arrival though. I never do that because it can cause problems. I think it would be a nice gesture though to refund some of the money.

 

[Rud3Bwoy]

Buyer of Dave's and had 0 issues When dealing with him

Not taking sides here but when Dave's dragon arrived to me I was working and I left him in the box for an hour or so then removed him and had 0 issues But was packaged differently

 

[KelliH]

Well if you want to get down to it; what kind of heat pack was it? 40 hour? 60 hour? Why was it just flopping around loose in the box? Heat packs should be wrapped in a layer of newspaper and taped to one of the sides, or the top or bottom styro piece, and there should always be something in between the animal and the heat pack such as wadded up newspaper etc.

 

[Kiwi]

i truly hate getting involved in this topic but my question is being shipped over night this dragon is only in a box on average 12 hours what underlying issues does david have to worry about with the one that made it im sure things happen but your name is all you have in this hobby and being a package deal at 800 half is what i would like to get in return the comparison to cars sure the higher end car looks more appealing but how much damage has been repaired ive bought many dragons from david and never had any issues in fact his dragons ive had the best of luck out of grow at unreal rates and truly gave me everything I could ask for out of color as far as the doa if it was one of my dragons as for most people out their give at least a week health guarantee i dont understand were the issue of covering the cost of the dragon is a problem at least hes keeping the one that made it and not trying to get full refund 65 in shipping them both back is far different than the hole amount and hes only asking for half in which is all he received

 

[CarolinaClassicDragons]

I don't think the dragons should have been left in the box with a heat pack inside the house upon arrival though. I never do that because it can cause problems. I think it would be a nice gesture though to refund some of the money.

And sitting in my office with an air temp of 75 is different than sitting on a UPS truck how? I cannot even count the number of dragons I have shipped and received and never had a problem. AGAIN, a heat pack shouldnt have been used and if you were going to use one you communicate that to the buyer AND you package everything (dragon and the heat pak) properly. Again, no communication from the seller/shipper, I miss 3 1/2 days of work waiting for these dragons that never show up and now I am responsible for this dragon dying? Cmon.

 

[ShadowAceD]

i truly hate getting involved in this topic but my question is being shipped over night this dragon is only in a box on average 12 hours what underlying issues does david have to worry about with the one that made it im sure things happen but your name is all you have in this hobby and being a package deal at 800 half is what i would like to get in return the comparison to cars sure the higher end car looks more appealing but how much damage has been repaired ive bought many dragons from david and never had any issues in fact his dragons ive had the best of luck out of grow at unreal rates and truly gave me everything I could ask for out of color as far as the doa if it was one of my dragons as for most people out their give at least a week health guarantee i dont understand were the issue of covering the cost of the dragon is a problem at least hes keeping the one that made it and not trying to get full refund 65 in shipping them both back is far different than the hole amount and hes only asking for half in which is all he received

Considering the latest these packages can be dropped off is between 4-6PM, depending on location, for overnight delivery and that package is not expected to arrive until between 10 - 10:30AM, they are in transit for longer than twelve hours.

 

[jellyfishrhythm]

Look, I don't want to throw anybody under the bus, that is not my ultimate goal here at all.

But, unfortunately, since this issue doesn't seem to be dying a natural death anytime in the forseeable future, I think the next thing that needs to be examined is the shipper, meaning, the individual who physically prepared the packaging materials, made the (poorly thought out) judgment call on the heat pack, put the dragons in the box and sent them on their merry way to NC. That appears to be the crux of the argument of late, as focus has (rightfully) shifted from what ought to be done in terms of a refund (it's a no brainer, I cannot say that enough) - - is Anthony standing by his shipper? The person needs to be identified, because ultimately, as I've said earlier, all evidence points to poor shipping practices being the likely culprit in the hypo gal's untimely death. It would still ultimately be the SELLER'S responsibility to communicate the shipping details to the buyer, but I still feel as though the shipper should be identified.

...ultimately, even if Anthony wasn't the one who shipped them, responsibility needs to be accepted for trusting someone else to do it, whether or not the live and safe arrival of all critters in question was successful.

Kelli's right - and I know others have brought it up - - more details about the shipping need to come out if this issue is going to continue to be looked at and argued.

 

[ophidile]

This post was obviously not originally made to figure out how much should be refunded, as that question didn't even come up in the original post. Instead the original post said David "staged" the photo of the dead beardie and "ran it under cold water", instead of lukewarm. There seems to be no follow up on those claims on Anthony's side and David denies them.

So, I'm already skeptical of anything Anthony has to say, it looks to me like they are trying to wiggle out of their guarantee.

It doesn't matter if the box sat around an hour or two nor does it matter that it took two hours for Anthony to be contacted; these are HOURS not days, an hour or two shouldn't be a life-or-death difference! It can easily take that long to take photos, settle in the second beardie, and examine the first, and compose a message to the seller. Not to even mention the communication difficulties David claims he had with Anthony.

As to how much to refund, I'm afraid I don't have much experience in beardies and their pricing. If they were never priced separately before this deal, is there any kid of industry standard for relative pricing? Otherwise a half refund seems reasonable, as is returning the surviving one for a complete refund. So, what's it going to be?

 

[ophidile]

Sorry, it DID come up in the original post, but was a tiny part of it.

 

[yourbeat]

Ultamatums???

ok for starters one of the funny things about this is, in our pm's i clearly asked Dave "would you like to buy just 1 dragon or both" now dave stop playing dumb like you had to spend 800$ for a 300$ dragon. if you wanted 1 dragons i would have sold you 1 dragon so stop downplaying about which one you really wanted, you wanted both so i dont know who your trying to kid here.... i know if i had the option of saving 500$ to buy 1 thing i wanted i would spend the extra 500$ to get something i didnt want.

As far as shipping/packing I stand by it 100% it was packaged perfectly, the heat pack was taped with clear strong grip duct tape to the inside top piece of Styrofoam just like it should be. as far as bags with a hole in it, dave did not say it had a hole hes saying that this power house of a dragon put alot of time and effort in the gym and was able to pull the bag down through the extremely tight zip tie and get out through there.

now as far as her being lose in the box. we all have reptiles here of any species it doesn't matter what. when an animal is hot, it is going to move away from the heating pack, in a 16x12x9 inch box there was more then enough room for her to go to the other side of the box 16 inches away, which in my opinion she wouldn't have ever been able to stabilize her self on top of the news paper because with all the moving she would have done, the news paper would have been a little messed up. but conveniently the news paper looks fine and somehow a heavily taped heat pack made it off the lid and under her tail. that dragon would have been on the BOTTOM of the box when he opened it not the top, and i dont know how people can argue that. On the phone dave clearly told me "COLD" water so if he wants to change it to Luke warm in here then ok.

Now Dave if your trying to stir the pot, then ok.....i cant even remember all of the names of the other breeders/hobbyists that you bashed during a 5 minuet rant on the phone. Yes in my last email i stated i heard things about you from a FEW people about how your a head. but i made my own decision about dealing with you and went on with it. now if you want to bring up Tom Clarke, YOU SIR brought up TOMS name and SEVERAL other names saying that I didnt want this to go to the BOI because all of the people who are boi crazy and like to get in everyone else s business would get ll over this. you also through hints out there in the beginning of our conversation about how your around my house quite often? i left that comment alone but we both know you were trying to hint like if you didn't get your money yesterday you'd be coming to my door, which is more then fine, because like you said your horesham office is quite close.

as far as the price of the refund i offered him 300$ straight out of the gate because i felt that was a very fair price on the cheaper of the 2 animals. because when 2 animals are so close in comparison to color, OBVIOUSLY a HYPO TRANS is more then the TRANS poss. Het hypo. and she is not a partial trans to me she is a HYPO TRANS.

and this thread was started to serve its purpose. to see what other people think and see if other people have been in this same situation. this wasnt a BAD GUY thread on you. it was an inquiry, nothing more. but you came in like billy bad with that sweet catch phrase about game on, and it began.

as far as you and your home team, NO ONE on this thread is going to come in a place where i asked for OPINIONS then say to me "Here are your options, A and B....now pick" that is NOT how this works and i will NOT be given ultimatums by Dave or the ladies who have come in here to voice there love for him.


You changed your whole story between the phone and here, and that's why when we got on the phone i said"i dont like doing things on the phone it causes holes in story's" but then you started talking and it went from there. You may have been around for a little while with lots of good feedback and no shady bad guy threads....there's a first for everything, if you didnt want to seem shady you should have never took the dragon out and placed her on top of the heat pack YOU removed from the tape to put under her. Your shady as and thats why at first you were demanding your money by the afternoon, because you were trying to capitalize on my first reactions.

that is why this thread was started. alot of things didnt add up to me or make sense and there were lots of holes in your story and the pictures speak for them selves, because we both know you did not open the box to see the dragon like that.

and how do you compare yourself to Tom C. and say you learned alot about him? i see his adds marked as sold in hours. i see yours marked as for sale for weeks? so clearly his view on genetics HAS to be worth something, and he must be doing something right.

for the record me and tom have NEVER spoke about you EVER in a private conversation and Tom did NOT know i had sold these females until he saw this thread last night. i haven't talked to tom in 2 weeks or so. and when i do talk to tom i ask alot of questions about the business, genetics, breeding and so on. so you can the comment about "now you know who said things about you" and tuck it away somewhere.

 

[yourbeat]

as far as the Phone call goes, that was when his Reviving of the animal was brought up. Now you have all stated it before that im a nobody on here and dave is a somebody on here. Anything that is going to be considered hear say or me against him without proof in an email would obviously go his way, and i was prepared for that. but this was an inquiry thread not a bad guy, so i didnt think it was gonna get this far.

 

[yourbeat]

For the small minded people who are afraid of guns, i have changed the picture to a bearded dragon to better suit your comfort.

 

[Chrisw]

Seems things are going away from the fact that a dragon arrived dead. Name calling and finger pointing is not going to bring the dragon back. The dragon was shipped poorly and you need to stand behind your name and refund the proper amount.

 

[scubasteve25]

am i thinking about the wrong tom when you say

Tom did NOT know i had sold these females until he saw this thread last night. i haven't talked to tom in 2 weeks or so.

but earlier you said

so yesterday i took my dragons over to a friends house who is Tom from TND dragons because he said he had boxes and everything i would need to ship these animals out. so i get to toms and we soak the females in a warm bath, dry them off, and package them up, print the label and i go on my way.

forgive me if im thinking of the wrong tom, i am still not familiar with everyones name. like i said, new to beardies and still making my rounds.

 

[yourbeat]

yes to clarify that, i took the dragons to tom constance to use his materials for shipping, in my last statement i was reffering to Tom Clarke.

 

[scubasteve25]

yes to clarify that, i took the dragons to tom constance to use his materials for shipping, in my last statement i was reffering to Tom Clarke.

ok, i was just checking, better to clarify so nobody jumps down your throat about it, i know how BOI peeps can scrutinize everything

 

[ophidile]

Hrm. I apologize for the tone of my earlier post; I thought I read through the whole original post but actually missed your question at the bottom about the refund. I do still think your original post was a lot more speculatory/accusatory than appropriate; you have proof the dragon was dead within 2 hours of being received. That's all there really is to that? If the question is how much should be refunded you shoulda stuck with that from the start, what is all this other talk going to mean? That he should get $300 instead of $400 or $367 because it took two hours to get back to you?

If you don't like the $367 refund why not just take the dragon back?

Again, I don't know much about beardie pricing. Yes to me a "hypo trans" sounds more valuable than a "trans pos het hypo". But Dave has stated he wanted both for 800 not the hypotrans for 500, and is willing to return the survivor if you're only willing refund $300 on the DOA, so... again, why not just accept the return if you think $367 is too much?