Inquiry David Freeman Carolina Classic Dragons

[gennist]

Everyone just has to be responsible breeders!!!! People know how this all works.....communication!!

Brenda Gore

 

[Sushi Dragons]

and this thread was started to serve its purpose. to see what other people think and see if other people have been in this same situation. this wasnt a BAD GUY thread on you. it was an inquiry, nothing more. but you came in like billy bad with that sweet catch phrase about game on, and it began.

You asked for people's opinions based on the evidence you provided and you got opinions. Most did not agree with you because the individual value was never given. You brought it to the BOI and now it will have to play itself out.

as far as you and your home team, NO ONE on this thread is going to come in a place where i asked for OPINIONS then say to me "Here are your options, A and B....now pick" that is NOT how this works and i will NOT be given ultimatums by Dave or the ladies who have come in here to voice there love for him.

Okay, back to this. I was the one who mentioned "home team" and you are taking it out of context to further your case. The quote was "I personally would like to think that my opinions are not based solely on locality and a 'hip hip hurray for the home team' demeanor." Meaning we are NOT blindly supporting David because he lives in the same state. I do not love David, I barely know him. Yes, he is local to me. Yes, I would recognize him in a crowd. And yes, you sent him a dead animal. My opinions are my own and I expect you to respect that.

The gender of the people posting has absolutely no bearing on the matter whatsoever... Besides, the individual who laid out the A and B options was a man. And again, it was his opinion posted freely on an open forum.

 

[Sushi Dragons]

Everyone just has to be responsible breeders!!!! People know how this all works.....communication!!

Brenda Gore

Amen!

It also helps to stay off the phone and keep everything in writing. It's just a necessity to keep a paper trail these days.

 

[Matt2979]

Amen!

It also helps to stay off the phone and keep everything in writing. It's just a necessity to keep a paper trail these days.

But, unless I've looked over something more important (and I don't think I did), the bottom line is that David paid for 2 live dragons and only received 1. Having to replace an animal that perished in transit is never a pleasant experience for any breeder, in any economic circumstance, but it's something that just has to be done. Hopefully feelings and emotions can be put aside long enough to find a solution that is acceptable to both of you.

 

[CarolinaClassicDragons]

ok for starters one of the funny things about this is, in our pm's i clearly asked Dave "would you like to buy just 1 dragon or both" now dave stop playing dumb like you had to spend 800$ for a 300$ dragon. if you wanted 1 dragons i would have sold you 1 dragon so stop downplaying about which one you really wanted, you wanted both so i dont know who your trying to kid here.... i know if i had the option of saving 500$ to buy 1 thing i wanted i would spend the extra 500$ to get something i didnt want.

As far as shipping/packing I stand by it 100% it was packaged perfectly, the heat pack was taped with clear strong grip duct tape to the inside top piece of Styrofoam just like it should be. as far as bags with a hole in it, dave did not say it had a hole hes saying that this power house of a dragon put alot of time and effort in the gym and was able to pull the bag down through the extremely tight zip tie and get out through there.

now as far as her being lose in the box. we all have reptiles here of any species it doesn't matter what. when an animal is hot, it is going to move away from the heating pack, in a 16x12x9 inch box there was more then enough room for her to go to the other side of the box 16 inches away, which in my opinion she wouldn't have ever been able to stabilize her self on top of the news paper because with all the moving she would have done, the news paper would have been a little messed up. but conveniently the news paper looks fine and somehow a heavily taped heat pack made it off the lid and under her tail. that dragon would have been on the BOTTOM of the box when he opened it not the top, and i dont know how people can argue that. On the phone dave clearly told me "COLD" water so if he wants to change it to Luke warm in here then ok.

Now Dave if your trying to stir the pot, then ok.....i cant even remember all of the names of the other breeders/hobbyists that you bashed during a 5 minuet rant on the phone. Yes in my last email i stated i heard things about you from a FEW people about how your a head. but i made my own decision about dealing with you and went on with it. now if you want to bring up Tom Clarke, YOU SIR brought up TOMS name and SEVERAL other names saying that I didnt want this to go to the BOI because all of the people who are boi crazy and like to get in everyone else s business would get ll over this. you also through hints out there in the beginning of our conversation about how your around my house quite often? i left that comment alone but we both know you were trying to hint like if you didn't get your money yesterday you'd be coming to my door, which is more then fine, because like you said your horesham office is quite close.

as far as the price of the refund i offered him 300$ straight out of the gate because i felt that was a very fair price on the cheaper of the 2 animals. because when 2 animals are so close in comparison to color, OBVIOUSLY a HYPO TRANS is more then the TRANS poss. Het hypo. and she is not a partial trans to me she is a HYPO TRANS.

and this thread was started to serve its purpose. to see what other people think and see if other people have been in this same situation. this wasnt a BAD GUY thread on you. it was an inquiry, nothing more. but you came in like billy bad with that sweet catch phrase about game on, and it began.

as far as you and your home team, NO ONE on this thread is going to come in a place where i asked for OPINIONS then say to me "Here are your options, A and B....now pick" that is NOT how this works and i will NOT be given ultimatums by Dave or the ladies who have come in here to voice there love for him.


You changed your whole story between the phone and here, and that's why when we got on the phone i said"i dont like doing things on the phone it causes holes in story's" but then you started talking and it went from there. You may have been around for a little while with lots of good feedback and no shady bad guy threads....there's a first for everything, if you didnt want to seem shady you should have never took the dragon out and placed her on top of the heat pack YOU removed from the tape to put under her. Your shady as and thats why at first you were demanding your money by the afternoon, because you were trying to capitalize on my first reactions.

that is why this thread was started. alot of things didnt add up to me or make sense and there were lots of holes in your story and the pictures speak for them selves, because we both know you did not open the box to see the dragon like that.

and how do you compare yourself to Tom C. and say you learned alot about him? i see his adds marked as sold in hours. i see yours marked as for sale for weeks? so clearly his view on genetics HAS to be worth something, and he must be doing something right.

for the record me and tom have NEVER spoke about you EVER in a private conversation and Tom did NOT know i had sold these females until he saw this thread last night. i haven't talked to tom in 2 weeks or so. and when i do talk to tom i ask alot of questions about the business, genetics, breeding and so on. so you can the comment about "now you know who said things about you" and tuck it away somewhere.

My story has stayed the same. You can come on here and make up anything you want about what I supposedly said or who I talked about during our phone conversation. You and I know the truth are we are the only ones that ever will. You make accusations of what I did with the dragon to make it look a certain way. Why would I stage all of this? I showed you the section of material that had slipped through the cable tie. It is right there for everyone to see. Are you saying that I just pulled enough material through there to create a hole so that I could then pull out a dead dragon. Seriously???? You say I am shady and you start name calling. I will not go there as I really do not know you as a person nor do you know me. There are plenty out there that know me and know what I stand for. Please just refund the money and I will go back to the short list of people I buy from. I have strayed from that a couple of times and I am now paying the price. Lessons learned.

 

[CarolinaClassicDragons]

So I try sticking out the olive branch to Anthony and he tells me to bring it back here so here is the email...

you and your friends had given me option A or B and demanding a choice between the 2. i am reviewing option C and i will go from there. no need message me out side of the BOI now that it has turned from a thread about the situation and advice to taking pokes, it can stay in the BOI i already regret the phone call as your twisting words around about how you did it with cold or luke warm water and opening up the box. this will continue on the BOI because thats what its there for. im not afraid of the people on the BOI or you, and its there for these reasons if im ruining my name with you and other breeders then i guess thats how it is but im a grown man and will make my own decisions. i wont let you or the people in your neighborhood make my decisions for me, that is all i have to say. we will use the BOI as it is intended. to settle situations which originated from a deal made through Fauna.
Thanks

From: koiboy <[email protected]>
To: anthony prosper <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:57 PM
Subject: Can this end please?

I really was shocked to be told by someone else that you had started that BOI. Especially after what I thought was a pleasant conversation.

Can you just refund me the money and bring this to a halt? I really do not see what you have to gain by stretching it out.

 

[CarolinaClassicDragons]

So what is "option C" Anthony? Since we have to have our conversation out here now to make it official. You brought this to this forum and there have been plenty outside of NC that have given you their opinion. Lets wrap this up and move on.

 

[ophidile]

So what is "option C" Anthony? Since we have to have our conversation out here now to make it official. You brought this to this forum and there have been plenty outside of NC that have given you their opinion. Lets wrap this up and move on.

Maybe he is able to replace the dragon that perished? That's the only thing I can think of...

 

[CarolinaClassicDragons]

Would probably work for me. I hate to see anyone in a financial mess. I think I was being very understanding until this BOI came up.

 

[Grgamber]

WWWOOOOWWW

 

[jellyfishrhythm]

Let the record show that I just PM'd Anthony, requesting that this "NC cheerleaders" crap be put to bed. I didn't feel the need to go into all of the details publicly because of the fact that it has NOTHING to do with the crux of the argument here (as I told him in the message). -- just covering my bases. Let it also be known that I said nothing to him in the message that I would have a problem with becoming public.

 

[dragonluver83]

Dragonluver83 - Since you felt the need to take my opinion on this incident and analyze it to death i'll go ahead and respond to help you out a little.

((Judging a book by it's cover??? You will learn one day my friend.
Pictures and hobbies dont tell you anything about a man's business eithic's.
My hobbies and business ethic's are black and white.)) ... hmm alright...

I feel you may be limiting your potential success in Business/Marketing 101... Pictures and hobbies perhaps don't tell YOU " YOURSELF " about YOUR business ethics because YOU think your hobbies and business ethics are black and white... but YOU are missing the entire perception piece from potential customers who don't know anything about you... if you understand marketing and business you know that first impressions and perceptions are huge!!! Nothing " yourbeat " shows has me drooling to take him serious as a breeder of high quality dragons.

Well please allow me to retort,

Beings that your new here. I'll fill you in. I Need 0 (zero) information from you on buss 101. My success here (as a actual dragon breeder of high end dragons) has reached a level that many other have failed to achieve. I have sold animals all over the U.S. and have exported to 4 different countries on the regular, over the last three years. Dragon prices ranging from 50 bucks to 1000 bucks for a single 5 inch baby. Im also waiting the new bearded dragon manuel ( U.K. version) To see the pictures I was asked to send in. So please dont think i have "limited" my success. I am quite happy with my accomplishments!

That said...

I know exactly what your saying. Why buy from a guy with guns on his pics and certain phrases that he uses, maybe be cocky. Doesnt give you a homely "hey I wanna buy from this guy" feeling does it?

You can plainly see im rough around the edges, and re-reading this kinda cocky myself. . Sad thing is, you would be the one to come to the reptile shows and see me with tattoo's and piercings and wanna pass me by. But when you look at me and walk past, you are the one that misses the good deal.

NEVER, judge a book by its cover.

That said...

If "yourbeat" and David had the exact same dragons for sale on this site for an example based off first glance and impression i'm going to go with David. A nice picture of a Citrus dragon with logo and classy email and name for a business. Versus "yourbeats"..."2 guns" and some saying that sounds cocky with an email of "mdskillz1717". ( That's all my point was my... " friend " ). Cheers! Good luck in the future.

Well there again you still miss the big picture

David @ Carolina Classic Dragons and a private individual seller (Anthony) He's not making a business out of this, Just another hobby. David is trying to make a consistent profit. So there are things he is going to do AND not going to do.

AN If someone like David seen two animals e-mailed an called Anthony for them. Then maybe he seen a good deal? Or felt good enough to work with the guy.

As for the buyer being defensive, I would have been too. Asking why it took two hours to contact the seller about a DOA insinuates the seller killed it.

This is one of the reasons why he (Anthony) came here. Alot of ppl are over looking that. This is what I had a problem with. Would David not have wanted his customer to call him asap in the event of a d.o.a.?

Unless the dragon was intentionally killed, I don't see it dying in 2 hours unless it was the result of shipping, just my opinion.

Or left in the box and UN-intentionally killed? Another thing is why was one dragon dead and the other one alive?

DONT think a dragon is dumb enough to lay on a heat pack when its hot. Doubt it. Which the dragon was on top of all the newspaper not covered up at all. i have had dragons shipped in nothing but a box with newspaper and never seen the dragon ON TOP... I always had to look for the dragon. Especially a larger dragon. Its weight alone would keep it pressed down under anything light. Like newspaper...............

If you can't guarantee your lizard to live at least 24 hours after arrival, then you should make that clear to the buyer before the sale. Often these details are not discussed beforehand because it can scare a buyer away.

You know the funny thing. I guarantee my animals for 6 weeks. BUT what the buyer did in this case. Would have voided his warranty. Me being me, I would have worked something out. But if you read my T.O.S. the warranty would have been void due to a almost 2 hrs with no notice of a d.o.a.

This is a scary situation and sucks for both parties, but honestly, I would have refunded the $400 right after being notified. If this was a someone without a rep, I might ask for more details, but a good rep should stand for something. Honestly, good customers will be reluctant to purchase from someone that won't take their word or trouble them about a refund. I understand the bad customers ruin this, but you should also be selective on who you sell to. In this case I would have trusted the buyer. No offense to the OP, just my opinion on the matter as requested.

Nicely put, I think (which is also in my T.O.S.) i would refunded the animals price minus the shipping cost. Leaving the refund at 367.50..

The animal arrived DOA. Refund the buyer's money! If there was no set amount for each dragon then refund half of the amount sent (minus shipping) like Tom has said. I don't understand how there could even be a question about what to do in this particular situation.

. I know you probably think im a but I do smile when I read most of your post?

Just one little thing, the buyer wasnt totally confused about the refund. It was leary to him about the D.O.A. The two hour contact. Then the fact that the dragon was sitting on Top of the packing and heat pack.

There is evidence here that a less rep. guy would have been questioned about. But because of David's rep It's going to be over looked.

Oh Tom Clarke...learned even more about you in this thread. As a breeder, I cannot believe you place more value on phenotype over genotype. I certainly do not. You bring up color? You think the one that died had inferior color? Cmon! Once again, so subjective but I will bet you the majority of people would choose the color of the trans that died over this partial trans.

David now to you.

I cant believe you as a breeder, is trying to pull the B.S. that the HYPO TRANS (just because the eyes are not solid black doesnt mean its not a full trans)( i attached a picture of a HYPO TRANS LEATHERBACK check out his eye. not solid black) Does this make his less of a trans. NO the scales on the dragon will determine if its a trans or not.

The dragons were close in color, Its not like the one was yellow and the one is red. You know as well as I do color sells. And those dragons were close in color.

Yea your customers and/or friends would choose the dead one. BUT you know the HYPO TRANS is worth more by genetic's.

Get something straight, High end dragons is what I have been breeding since before I been on this site. I was one of the first ones on this site to sell trans leathers and hypo trans leathers. Your NOT talking to a student!

Im trying to make a happy middle and bury this thread. I do personally think that if your going to get half of dragons price back, your getting a damn good deal. Im the one that put the 367.50 on this board as a "good offer" an your going to give me the I learned about you b.s. Maybe I wont try to do nothing for you at all David. I havent bad mouthed you and said I would and I have refered you before.

I now know who you were referring to Anthony All those bad things you heard about me.

Hold on hold on hold on, EVERYBODY knows if i didnt like you, or had something to say I'd say it right here. I would say exactly how i feel and take my infraction. I didnt say nothing about you!

Im sorry I didnt roll over for you,and say you should get 400. I stood in the middle and looked at it maturely.

367.50 refund dont do any more buss. This could have been done off the b.o.i.

Some times you have to put the measuring tapes away, and be logical or cut a loss.

I just went and looked at my cell phone log and I called Tom at 11:44 which means I opened the box earlier than that. I am guessing the package got here sometime after 10:00. So, it wasn't two hours. We all ship dragons that have been in boxes far longer with no ill effects so trying to question 2 hours or less is so trivial. Just for the record, I was shocked he put a heat pack in that box! They were coming to NC and are temps were in the mid 80's! Seriously?

dave it can go both ways. I personally think something is missing in this story, but letting it go.

Just send the $367.50.

Can we do this, Anthony?

If you honestly think Anthony started this thread over whether he should pay $300 or $400, you are kidding yourself. This wasn't an inquiry. This was a desperate attempt to take this public and hope that someone might in one way or another agree with him, jump on his bandwagon, and he could weazel his way out of having to pay anything.

David IF YOU didnt have a reputation, You would be under the micro scope. An being looked at alot harder.

There are flaws in the story

-2 hr time period.

-The picture of the dragon on top of the paper. On top of the heat pack. Really dont think a hot dragon would lay on top of paper on top of the heat pack.

- why is one dragon dead and the other alive?

Tom from TND dragons was there and watch this animal soak and get packed. So its not like he wasnt under the supervision of a professional.

I don't think the dragons should have been left in the box with a heat pack inside the house upon arrival though. I never do that because it can cause problems. I think it would be a nice gesture though to refund some of the money.

Polite and reasonable. A few what if's and the dragon may not be dead?

And sitting in my office with an air temp of 75 is different than sitting on a UPS truck how?

Heres the difference,

The dragon in the office can be let out of the box. The dragon in route to its destination can not be let out. The dragon may be alive if you opened the box a hour sooner?

I cannot even count the number of dragons I have shipped and received and never had a problem. AGAIN, a heat pack shouldnt have been used and if you were going to use one you communicate that to the buyer AND you package everything (dragon and the heat pak) properly.

Well should it not of been used? Or a lesser heat pack should of been used?

It was cold in Philly. What was the temp in a airplane at 30 thousand feet? I dont think they have heated cabs?

Again, no communication from the seller/shipper, I miss 3 1/2 days of work waiting for these dragons that never show up and now I am responsible for this dragon dying? Cmon.

Lack of comm. for sure, If both of you did things differently maybe the little girl would still be here?

An so i dont have to quote everyone who grew up some where else but now live in N.C. see post 34.

 

[jellyfishrhythm]

An so i dont have to quote everyone who grew up some where else but now live in N.C. see post 34.

ENOUGH. I'm done with this thread. That crap is getting so old. Dave, I truly hope you get the refund you undoubtedly deserve.

 

[Chrisw]

Option 3 is what?

 

[Focal]

As for the dragon escaping from the bag, if you look closely in pictures #2 & #3, you can see where the dragon was clawing at the styrofoam (left side) and even see bits of it on the dragon itself.

 

[Khaldrago]

unbelievable..

Hey " yourbeat" .. the more you go on and resort to name calling people with input on the situation " ladies " just because you can't take what we are saying is priceless. You tried to use this forum to rough up someones reputation over your own neglect of shipping a dragon. Thanks for confirming that first impressions are most of the time dead on . Thank you.

How about you refund the money and move on with it because yourbeat.

 

[dragonluver83]

As for the dragon escaping from the bag, if you look closely in pictures #2 & #3, you can see where the dragon was clawing at the styrofoam (left side) and even see bits of it on the dragon itself.

Right, but how does it end up on top of the paper not covered up at all??? and on top of the heat pack?

I sold alot of dragons, never seen them claw outta a bag either. And NEVER seen them on top of newspaper.

I dont like it.........

 

[Focal]

DONT think a dragon is dumb enough to lay on a heat pack when its hot. Doubt it.

But they will burn themselves on heat rock though Really I think we are assuming to much here. Too little info and no one will ever know.



Anthony, even if the dragon arrived live and then died three hours later, would that have changed the refund eligibility? One thing is for certain, it was an accident and someone has to eat it. If the seller doesn't eat it, regardless of who is right or wrong, it's going to leave prospective buyers leery unless you can prove it was the buyer and prove it without doubt, otherwise it looks like you are trying to wiggle your way out of a refund REGARDLESS of who's right or wrong. It's part of the gamble, pay to play. That's the bottom line and all you can do is depend on karma if you got cheated.

It really does suck but does losing that dragon before it hatches really differ that much from losing it in shipping? The fault shouldn't change. Until you have a happy customer, you don't really deserve that money IMO (by you I mean whoever).

 

[Focal]

Right, but how does it end up on top of the paper not covered up at all??? and on top of the heat pack?

I sold alot of dragons, never seen them claw outta a bag either. And NEVER seen them on top of newspaper.

I dont like it.........

Honestly, I haven't a clue and those are the questions we should be asking, not the seller. It does look poor when a seller searches for a reason to not be at fault. Sometimes it's better top eat your suspicions because this is kind of embarrassing, at least it would be for me.

 

[Chrisw]

Right, but how does it end up on top of the paper not covered up at all??? and on top of the heat pack?

I sold alot of dragons, never seen them claw outta a bag either. And NEVER seen them on top of newspaper.

I dont like it.........

So simply because you havent seen it happen doesnt mean it cant?!

So what is option 3. We all see you watching the thread.