Dennis Hultman
New member
Your right. My point was more to the fact that I accused him of making up the IBD claim.
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Bad Guy DEAD SNAKES from Kevin South of The Constrictors Labrynth
- Thread starter colorado
- Start date
Your right. My point was more to the fact that I accused him of making up the IBD claim.
Laura Fopiano
B&L Exotix
Before I get into a very long post, BOTH of these men made mistakes, both of them were wrong.
Kevin, never ever ship a less than par animal ever, especially in the same bag. Stress from being in the same container as other animals can be the catalyst to bringing out an underlying illness. Which is what I believe happened with these animals, plus not knowing the nature of the illness, you just cross contaminated 2 other snakes.
Colorado, you talk too much, too much dialog with little substance. Learn to talk less (type) and be teachable, you're never too old to learn.
Now to the heart of this post.
Many of you know (at least the older members here) what I went through 7 years ago.
In 2002 I started collecting boas. These animals came from trusted sources, all local people to me. My big girl "barbie" was a beautiful buskin female that was as tame as a puppy. I loved her, she was my friend and my pet.
As I began breeding these animals wonderful things began happening. I was over the moon with amazement.
in 2004 one of my anery males dropped death with out a reason. He was eating, defecating, drinking, and acting normally. There was a catalyst though, I learned from a friend that if I put my males together while my females were cooling, they would be more aggressive, and could possibly be better breeders for it (yes I know, stupid noobie mistake) The stress of the combating males brought to the surface an illness that no one knew he had.
I took him to Dr. Tom Greek, a well know reptile specialist. He necropsied him and my hysto came back in 7 days. IBD was the cause of death. Needless to say I was in shock. So I did what every good boid keeper should do, I started testing. I culled a baby from a litter, it tested negative. I took the least likely female that I had, one that had never been in a cage with any of the others. She was my Rich Ihle female anery, she came back positve.
I stopped all visiting from regular club members (I was the Pres. of SCHA at the time) Only my closest friends were allowed to come over and only 3 were allowed in my snake room.
I was in total disbelief of what was happening to me and my beloved animals. I made an appointment with Dr. Greek and we talked about every posibility that I had. We discussed my daily habbits with my animals, the feeding schedule, inviromentel stress, cage size, you name it, we went over it.
1. my quarantine was severely lacking. (I housed animals for the club raffle in my snake room)
2. I had a mite out break. I got rid of them, but the obvious damages had been done, not to mention it causes stress to the animals.
3. the worst thing that I did was tub feeding with out cleaning the tubs in between animals and feeding an uneaten prey items to the next willing mouth.
IBD is a contact virus, it is spread through blood, saliva, urine, feces, and of course breeding fluids. Mites that have bitten an infected snake can also be spread if they bite another snake.
I listed all of these things because all 3 of them were the demise of my collection. In the end, I destroyed every snake in my collection, all of my cages, water bowls, heat tape, and feeding tubs. 30,000 in animals and equipment. But, the greatest tole was what it did to me.
I loved my animals, I loved learning about genetics, by breeding them, not just reading about it. I lost my love that day when I euthanized them all. It was the single hardest decision that I have ever had to make and yet I don't regret it. Those animals payed the price for my inability (at that time) to be teachable. I thought I knew it all, and in the end I lost it all.
I do not have the same love and wonder that I did then. I am much more cautious and jaded. I made huge mistakes, may my mistakes help others.
Kevin, never ever ship a less than par animal ever, especially in the same bag. Stress from being in the same container as other animals can be the catalyst to bringing out an underlying illness. Which is what I believe happened with these animals, plus not knowing the nature of the illness, you just cross contaminated 2 other snakes.
Colorado, you talk too much, too much dialog with little substance. Learn to talk less (type) and be teachable, you're never too old to learn.
Now to the heart of this post.
Many of you know (at least the older members here) what I went through 7 years ago.
In 2002 I started collecting boas. These animals came from trusted sources, all local people to me. My big girl "barbie" was a beautiful buskin female that was as tame as a puppy. I loved her, she was my friend and my pet.
As I began breeding these animals wonderful things began happening. I was over the moon with amazement.
in 2004 one of my anery males dropped death with out a reason. He was eating, defecating, drinking, and acting normally. There was a catalyst though, I learned from a friend that if I put my males together while my females were cooling, they would be more aggressive, and could possibly be better breeders for it (yes I know, stupid noobie mistake) The stress of the combating males brought to the surface an illness that no one knew he had.
I took him to Dr. Tom Greek, a well know reptile specialist. He necropsied him and my hysto came back in 7 days. IBD was the cause of death. Needless to say I was in shock. So I did what every good boid keeper should do, I started testing. I culled a baby from a litter, it tested negative. I took the least likely female that I had, one that had never been in a cage with any of the others. She was my Rich Ihle female anery, she came back positve.
I stopped all visiting from regular club members (I was the Pres. of SCHA at the time) Only my closest friends were allowed to come over and only 3 were allowed in my snake room.
I was in total disbelief of what was happening to me and my beloved animals. I made an appointment with Dr. Greek and we talked about every posibility that I had. We discussed my daily habbits with my animals, the feeding schedule, inviromentel stress, cage size, you name it, we went over it.
1. my quarantine was severely lacking. (I housed animals for the club raffle in my snake room)
2. I had a mite out break. I got rid of them, but the obvious damages had been done, not to mention it causes stress to the animals.
3. the worst thing that I did was tub feeding with out cleaning the tubs in between animals and feeding an uneaten prey items to the next willing mouth.
IBD is a contact virus, it is spread through blood, saliva, urine, feces, and of course breeding fluids. Mites that have bitten an infected snake can also be spread if they bite another snake.
I listed all of these things because all 3 of them were the demise of my collection. In the end, I destroyed every snake in my collection, all of my cages, water bowls, heat tape, and feeding tubs. 30,000 in animals and equipment. But, the greatest tole was what it did to me.
I loved my animals, I loved learning about genetics, by breeding them, not just reading about it. I lost my love that day when I euthanized them all. It was the single hardest decision that I have ever had to make and yet I don't regret it. Those animals payed the price for my inability (at that time) to be teachable. I thought I knew it all, and in the end I lost it all.
I do not have the same love and wonder that I did then. I am much more cautious and jaded. I made huge mistakes, may my mistakes help others.
weird_science04
New member
I really don't post much on fauna but I read a lot on fauna. The reason I am posting now is because I have seen Kevin's ads on Kingsnake and Fauna and he had some really nice snakes for sale that I had thought could add to my collection. Luckily for me, my husband is on a "no more snake" kick and I never brought up purchasing any but I would show my husband some of the snakes for sale.
My question is, how do we know that het sharp snake was not from your stock? I say this because you have repeatedly stated that the het sharp was in quarantine and you only had him for 2 months; however, you have also stated that you keep your males lean and small. If you only had this snake for 2 months, then you wouldn't have to justify why the snake was small as much as why you are selling a snake that is in quarantine.
I personally wouldn't sell a snake that was in quarantine because they are in quarantine for a reason. So, was the snake from your stock or was the snake new to your home?
Can you prove the snake was from someone else?
If the snake was from someone else and the buyer/new couple buyer proves that the het sharp was the snake that died from IBD (if it comes back conclusive), then you need to bring this matter up to that other seller also.
You will also need to be responsible and stop selling snakes for a long while and make sure that you have not infected your collection. IBD is scary and no one wants to hear that they sold a snake with IBD; however, when it happens, you can keep your good reputation by the choices you make and by how professional you are in your responses.
I know you are frustrated with Nick but the reality is right now that there is the possibility that you sold an IBD infected snake to someone (regardless of what they have done and whether it was right or wrong) and if this is proven to come from you then you have to make choices.
If this were me in your situation, I would stop selling all snakes, stop bringing snakes in, and wait this out to see if the snake did come from you or not.
I would take this ad down off kingsnake: http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=154&de=853581. It is probably about to expire anyways.
Even with quarantine, if this snake does prove to come from you, you will need to take a break from the hobby for some time. No breedings, no incoming snakes, no outgoing snakes, nothing. You will have to make sure that your snakes are SAFE and do not have IBD or make the hardest decision you will ever to brought to.
Star
My question is, how do we know that het sharp snake was not from your stock? I say this because you have repeatedly stated that the het sharp was in quarantine and you only had him for 2 months; however, you have also stated that you keep your males lean and small. If you only had this snake for 2 months, then you wouldn't have to justify why the snake was small as much as why you are selling a snake that is in quarantine.
I personally wouldn't sell a snake that was in quarantine because they are in quarantine for a reason. So, was the snake from your stock or was the snake new to your home?
Can you prove the snake was from someone else?
If the snake was from someone else and the buyer/new couple buyer proves that the het sharp was the snake that died from IBD (if it comes back conclusive), then you need to bring this matter up to that other seller also.
You will also need to be responsible and stop selling snakes for a long while and make sure that you have not infected your collection. IBD is scary and no one wants to hear that they sold a snake with IBD; however, when it happens, you can keep your good reputation by the choices you make and by how professional you are in your responses.
I know you are frustrated with Nick but the reality is right now that there is the possibility that you sold an IBD infected snake to someone (regardless of what they have done and whether it was right or wrong) and if this is proven to come from you then you have to make choices.
If this were me in your situation, I would stop selling all snakes, stop bringing snakes in, and wait this out to see if the snake did come from you or not.
I would take this ad down off kingsnake: http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=154&de=853581. It is probably about to expire anyways.
Even with quarantine, if this snake does prove to come from you, you will need to take a break from the hobby for some time. No breedings, no incoming snakes, no outgoing snakes, nothing. You will have to make sure that your snakes are SAFE and do not have IBD or make the hardest decision you will ever to brought to.
Star
milkshake8882
New member
Hello. I am the final owner of.the snake that was sent for testing... I am posting from my phone so I can't put a lot of info right now, but, I have found the before and after.pictures of Jet Lee.(the snake). You can clearly see from the before picture that he is the sane snake posted by the original seller in the pictures that he posted previously. I will be back in a few hours to post from my computer with all my though of what is going on. Can someone please walk me through how to upload a picture here....? Thank you
weird_science04
New member
I use photobucket to upload pictures. All you do is create an account with www.photobucket.com, then you can upload photos. When you go to the photo, click on the direct link and copy that link. On the message, you see a mountain with yellow background after the B (bold), I (italic), U (underline). Click that and paste the link inside the small window that appears. You should either see the picture in this message box or see some html stuff with the link in the middle.
Star
Star
hhmoore
tired & cranky shadow
PM sent with instructions for attaching photos
Pasodama
New member
I am not on either side (both have done some things that were wrong) but wanted to address this portion (above) so that it may answer your question (if what has been said is truthful).
There were two Boas that were stated to be very thin (not one). The two thin snakes being the het Sharp and the Poss. Super. Kevin stated that he had not had the het Sharp, for very long (and that he had it in quarantine). Kevin also stated that he had acquired the Poss. Super, in January 2009, from another seller/breeder (so, he had the Poss. Super for at least two years).
milkshake8882
New member
Ok. Im home now, and ready to put in my two sense. lol So here is a time line of events:
I had met with Nick on the 17th of last month to purchase a ball python. I met him at his house, met his family, his snakes, his dogs, etc. The ball python was absolutely beautiful. Nick was awesome while we were there, and wanted to show off some other snakes of his. In NO way did he pressure us into buying that snake, or emphasize it any more than any other snake he had. Its not like he brought JUST that snake out for us to see, there were several that we looked out. My husband mentioned that he liked the colors of this snake, and how beautiful he was. Again, there was not pressure or mention of trying to sell the snake at that time. We probably talked about everything under the sun for at least a good hour and a half before MY HUSBAND brought up the snake again. Nick mentioned that he wasnt entirely sure if he wanted to sell the snake. My husband was the one that initiated the sale, stating that IF Nick decided to sell, to let us know. In NO way did we feel "dupped" as some have stated. I think that if the snake had to be euthanized and Nick just avoided the whole thing, then yeah, maybe then. We contacted him before the snake went to the vet and let him know that the snake wasnt eating. At that time he told us that if we werent comfortable with keeping the snake, or things werent going to work out to bring him back, with 100% refund. He stood by his word, when we let him know the snake was put down, he felt terrible and gave us a choice of a refund, or new snake. He has already made the situation better 10 fold! No, nobody is happy with the fact that an animal was sick and had to suffer for any amount of time, but he rectified the whole ordeal. I cant blame Nick for getting concerned about IBD. Is there a chance of it being misdiagnosed? Yeah, just like anything else. But, when the State Vet Teaching Hospital provides a report that says IBD, you cant tell me that you can argue that that is not proof. Im not a vet, but i would trust a vets report. Yes, i know it says that final results are pending. When i receive those, i will post them as well, but its not like hes "making it up" like everyone is claiming. I find it somewhat sad that everyone attacked him, and asked for proof of vet reports, etc, and then when they were provided, their validity was questions, and it was still stated that he was lying. I think there was even a post that stated that it didnt even appear to be his. This was correct, since it was in my name, but you guys asked for the reports, and he provided them, but still this wasnt enough. I understand from reading this thread that there are a lot of people out there who are not satisfied with their dealings with Nick. I understand that everyone has their opinions, and are entitled to them, however, I like to build my opinion from my own experiences, and they have been GREAT with Nick. Did he make a mistake, but selling the snake before its quarantine was up? Yes. But, dont we all make mistakes? I know that this doesnt make the situation better, but geeze! We are all human! We all learn by our mistakes, and it almost feels that some of the people that posted on here are "without" mistake. I dont know this Kevin guy. But, did he make a mistake? Yes. They did, but that doesnt make either of them BAD people. It just means that they made a mistake, and have the opportunity to grow and learn from it. I'm not a snake expert, but would love to be one, one day. Do i love my animals? Yes. Do i give them the best care that i can? Yes. But, there are times that i have made mistakes with my animals as well, just like im sure that we all have in one way or another. Im not here to try and make everyone switch their opinions about Nick, im just hoping that this post will shine a little light on the situation from the third party. I am also attaching pictures of the snake. The first 2 are the day that i brought the snake home. The third is the day they had to euthanize the snake. You can see how he deteriorated in less than a month. That is after force feeding a small rat. (the one in the picture is not the one that we gave him. He didnt eat that week, it was the next week when we fed him.) No, the snake didnt DIE die on its own. It did die on the table, but was able to be brought back by the vet, but it would have died very soon after that if we didnt have it euthanized. I hope that this helped to clear some things up, but if you guys have any other questions for either Brad or myself, please let me know, and we will be more than happy to answer them. Thanks so much for taking the time to read my small book!
I had met with Nick on the 17th of last month to purchase a ball python. I met him at his house, met his family, his snakes, his dogs, etc. The ball python was absolutely beautiful. Nick was awesome while we were there, and wanted to show off some other snakes of his. In NO way did he pressure us into buying that snake, or emphasize it any more than any other snake he had. Its not like he brought JUST that snake out for us to see, there were several that we looked out. My husband mentioned that he liked the colors of this snake, and how beautiful he was. Again, there was not pressure or mention of trying to sell the snake at that time. We probably talked about everything under the sun for at least a good hour and a half before MY HUSBAND brought up the snake again. Nick mentioned that he wasnt entirely sure if he wanted to sell the snake. My husband was the one that initiated the sale, stating that IF Nick decided to sell, to let us know. In NO way did we feel "dupped" as some have stated. I think that if the snake had to be euthanized and Nick just avoided the whole thing, then yeah, maybe then. We contacted him before the snake went to the vet and let him know that the snake wasnt eating. At that time he told us that if we werent comfortable with keeping the snake, or things werent going to work out to bring him back, with 100% refund. He stood by his word, when we let him know the snake was put down, he felt terrible and gave us a choice of a refund, or new snake. He has already made the situation better 10 fold! No, nobody is happy with the fact that an animal was sick and had to suffer for any amount of time, but he rectified the whole ordeal. I cant blame Nick for getting concerned about IBD. Is there a chance of it being misdiagnosed? Yeah, just like anything else. But, when the State Vet Teaching Hospital provides a report that says IBD, you cant tell me that you can argue that that is not proof. Im not a vet, but i would trust a vets report. Yes, i know it says that final results are pending. When i receive those, i will post them as well, but its not like hes "making it up" like everyone is claiming. I find it somewhat sad that everyone attacked him, and asked for proof of vet reports, etc, and then when they were provided, their validity was questions, and it was still stated that he was lying. I think there was even a post that stated that it didnt even appear to be his. This was correct, since it was in my name, but you guys asked for the reports, and he provided them, but still this wasnt enough. I understand from reading this thread that there are a lot of people out there who are not satisfied with their dealings with Nick. I understand that everyone has their opinions, and are entitled to them, however, I like to build my opinion from my own experiences, and they have been GREAT with Nick. Did he make a mistake, but selling the snake before its quarantine was up? Yes. But, dont we all make mistakes? I know that this doesnt make the situation better, but geeze! We are all human! We all learn by our mistakes, and it almost feels that some of the people that posted on here are "without" mistake. I dont know this Kevin guy. But, did he make a mistake? Yes. They did, but that doesnt make either of them BAD people. It just means that they made a mistake, and have the opportunity to grow and learn from it. I'm not a snake expert, but would love to be one, one day. Do i love my animals? Yes. Do i give them the best care that i can? Yes. But, there are times that i have made mistakes with my animals as well, just like im sure that we all have in one way or another. Im not here to try and make everyone switch their opinions about Nick, im just hoping that this post will shine a little light on the situation from the third party. I am also attaching pictures of the snake. The first 2 are the day that i brought the snake home. The third is the day they had to euthanize the snake. You can see how he deteriorated in less than a month. That is after force feeding a small rat. (the one in the picture is not the one that we gave him. He didnt eat that week, it was the next week when we fed him.) No, the snake didnt DIE die on its own. It did die on the table, but was able to be brought back by the vet, but it would have died very soon after that if we didnt have it euthanized. I hope that this helped to clear some things up, but if you guys have any other questions for either Brad or myself, please let me know, and we will be more than happy to answer them. Thanks so much for taking the time to read my small book!
Attachments
So y'all were in the quarantine room? Or he 'brought out' the snakes to you in the living room?
milkshake8882
New member
We were not allowed in his snake room, which I can't argue with. Each snake was brought out to the loving room to us, as well as a.large. bottle of sanitizer.
Quarantine procedures are serious, not some game. If the snake was pulled out of quarantine and sold for profit, the seller took a chance. This seller was not a child, he could have insisted that quarantine finish prior to a sale.
Passing this off as a simple mistake fails to take into account the personal, professional and financial damage that can be done by IBD to snake owners. And of course, there is the matter of the snake itself, doomed to die, and potentially more snakes may die. If the seller was this cavalier about quarantine, he may have already exposed other snakes prior or after this sale.
Dennis Hultman
New member
You stated he provided the report and afterward people still stated he lied. That is in fact not true. People asked for the report that showed IBD as the cause of death. He never did provide that report. He posted the Vet visit and not the report people were asking for. You provided the only report that stated IBD. So yes, he was still criticized for not providing what he stated he would provide.
Before I go any further, Thank you for coming forward. You have provided a lot more information and fact here than Nick did. It wasn't your responsibility but you stepped up and provided some light on the situation.
Next, yes people make mistakes but in this hobby and/or business for some those little mistakes are huge mistakes in this industry.
Fauna has always been first and foremost a site where people do business and report on those business transactions in this hobby. Nick is in business selling animals. To skimp on quarantine is no little manner. You as a individual buyer experienced the loss of a individual pet. That is hard. Imagine either of this individuals sending that snake to someone here with hundreds of snakes. The death toll would be a devastating blow to someone's hobby or business.
It would destroy them. It isn't a little mistake.
Next, try to understand this. Many here have deal with devastating virus, diseases in reptiles. From IBD in snakes to adeno virus in bearded dragons. We know the results are not a one day process. There are those here working with those leading the research. It just doesn't happen that way. Never have I heard of confirmation like that in all the years I have seen it happen to friends and acquaintances collections. One day, it just doesn't happen.
You just stated
Lastly, I understand what you are stating how you came to purchase the snake. i understand you state he was upfront with you. But tell me how comfortable are you with his statement to the seller.
He plainly stated in that email that he would try and sell the sick snake.
He didn't state that he would sell it when it is better and out of quarantine but that he would sell it in the next few days. Who bought that snake? He states if it remains ill? Can't imagine that sitting well with any buyer.
Before I go any further, Thank you for coming forward. You have provided a lot more information and fact here than Nick did. It wasn't your responsibility but you stepped up and provided some light on the situation.
Next, yes people make mistakes but in this hobby and/or business for some those little mistakes are huge mistakes in this industry.
Fauna has always been first and foremost a site where people do business and report on those business transactions in this hobby. Nick is in business selling animals. To skimp on quarantine is no little manner. You as a individual buyer experienced the loss of a individual pet. That is hard. Imagine either of this individuals sending that snake to someone here with hundreds of snakes. The death toll would be a devastating blow to someone's hobby or business.
It would destroy them. It isn't a little mistake.
Next, try to understand this. Many here have deal with devastating virus, diseases in reptiles. From IBD in snakes to adeno virus in bearded dragons. We know the results are not a one day process. There are those here working with those leading the research. It just doesn't happen that way. Never have I heard of confirmation like that in all the years I have seen it happen to friends and acquaintances collections. One day, it just doesn't happen.
You just stated
that is the crux, They can't know that answer until those results are back. To make a statement that it is before it is confirmed does a big disservice. The statement alone if given to a honorable breeder could cost the lives of many snakes.
Lastly, I understand what you are stating how you came to purchase the snake. i understand you state he was upfront with you. But tell me how comfortable are you with his statement to the seller.
He plainly stated in that email that he would try and sell the sick snake.
He didn't state that he would sell it when it is better and out of quarantine but that he would sell it in the next few days. Who bought that snake? He states if it remains ill? Can't imagine that sitting well with any buyer.
hhmoore
tired & cranky shadow
Along with the last quote Dennis posted, is the one that really stuck in my head:
I
I understand that Nick didn't twist your arm to get you to buy that snake...and that he has addressed the loss to your satisfaction.
I ask for a couple of reasons 1) Any other boas or pythons you have should be considered at risk, even if you have good quarantine practices 2) If Nick is still moving animals out of his collection, AFTER being convinced that he's had IBD infected snakes, then he's willfully putting other people's snakes at risk.
Now, if the final diagnosis IS IBD, then Kevin will share a greater portion of the spotlight; as his response to the verification that he had IBD infected animals under his care will be noted (dare I say, scrutinized). Going by what is posted above, the snake you purchased was with Kevin for some time (assuming that it is the poss super Kevin sent to Nick, which I haven't seen anybody dispute - I'm currently unable to view any applicable photos).
I
.
I understand that Nick didn't twist your arm to get you to buy that snake...and that he has addressed the loss to your satisfaction.
I'm curious about the last sentence....how did he ultimately make this right with you?
I ask for a couple of reasons 1) Any other boas or pythons you have should be considered at risk, even if you have good quarantine practices 2) If Nick is still moving animals out of his collection, AFTER being convinced that he's had IBD infected snakes, then he's willfully putting other people's snakes at risk.
Now, if the final diagnosis IS IBD, then Kevin will share a greater portion of the spotlight; as his response to the verification that he had IBD infected animals under his care will be noted (dare I say, scrutinized). Going by what is posted above, the snake you purchased was with Kevin for some time (assuming that it is the poss super Kevin sent to Nick, which I haven't seen anybody dispute - I'm currently unable to view any applicable photos).
Katie.Shinkle
Reptile Addict
Kevin, Nick, and you all need to close your doors to any incoming or outgoing snakes at this time since there is a POSSIBILITY there was an IBD infected snake in all of your collections. Even if you practice good quarantine (like Harold said).
Riyeko
SnakeMom
Kevin, Nick, and you all need to close your doors to any incoming or outgoing snakes at this time since there is a POSSIBILITY there was an IBD infected snake in all of your collections. Even if you practice good quarantine (like Harold said).
This I agree with.
Both of you guys need to stop getting snakes and buying them, since you could have IBD in your collection.
I hear that IBD may be transferred by mites, but its not certain as some people dont have mites, and one snake 5ft away gets it from another snake thats just as far away.
IBD is a very scary thing. I hope that the results of the test come back negative.
RobNJ
New member
Wendy, I'm also curious how Nick made things right with you...10 fold, no less. Any replacement animals would only cause me more concern, but that's just me. A full refund and covering your vet expenses would definitely have been a nice gesture, but...
It still in no way negates the fact that Nick knowingly sold you a sick animal. After reading his e-mail correspondence with Kevin, you at the very least have some doubt as to how positive your dealings with Nick were, right?
It still in no way negates the fact that Nick knowingly sold you a sick animal. After reading his e-mail correspondence with Kevin, you at the very least have some doubt as to how positive your dealings with Nick were, right?
TriangleReptiles
New member
Wendy appears to be woefully ignorant of the dan gers and gravity of IBD, or is complicit in a scam against Kevin. I can't figure out which. In my book though, all 3 are on my do not sell, buy or trade book.
quick question (shoot, I said I wouldn't post again until I had vet report and yet here I go...)
First I am very sorry for the loss of your boa. I wanted to know, did Nick disclose to you on 4/17 that the snake had not yet eatten in his care? (he got it on 3/17 one month prior to selling to you).
Kevin, do you have any feeding history to show if it ate for you during the two months it was in your quanrantine before you sold it?
I'm just curious if he ate at all during the 4 months he was changing hands through all the parties, I'm guessing no?
First I am very sorry for the loss of your boa. I wanted to know, did Nick disclose to you on 4/17 that the snake had not yet eatten in his care? (he got it on 3/17 one month prior to selling to you).
Kevin, do you have any feeding history to show if it ate for you during the two months it was in your quanrantine before you sold it?
I'm just curious if he ate at all during the 4 months he was changing hands through all the parties, I'm guessing no?
Devon Hodgins
New member
Do you have any other pythons or boas in your collection Wendy?
boasandballs
New member
I have read most all of this thread and I want to say that at times I feel there was a mob mentality going on (the talking (yelling) and not thinking or trying to see things from all prospectives). The thread has turned around to a useful discussion, and I would like to add a few things.
First off I am a woman not a man. Second, making assumptions like this are not professional at all. I have done extensive work with reptiles and IBD. When this came up years ago I talked to Dr Roger Klingenberg DVM (a very good friend)about the impact on the show and I followed his protocol. I have also talked to Brian Potter about what he would do. So please don't assume you know what I should do, or tell me what I should do. You are not here and did not see what Nick brought to the show. Nick has some of the most amassing minerals I have ever seen. He brought no animals, not that it was your concern.
for everyone an necrospsy is always the best way to learn more.
I'm not going to look for the post but here are some answers to some of the questions I found in the many posts.
I would not consider this a new disease. It has been recognized as a disease syndrome for over thirty years, but isolations of the etiologic agents was accomplished only in the last decade. This retro-virus does not survive well outside the body and transmission appears to be from direct contact with the carriers or their body fluids. Yes, mites are generally responsible for the spread of this disease through entire collections. However the exchange of body fluids from fecal contamination, nasal and salivary secretions along with sex are also contributing factors of the spread of this disease. But because IBD replicates itself so fast, it does not survive outside of a host body for very long. It must nearly be direct contact. Because IBD can lie dormant in boas for months or even years. Is evidence that boas are the natural host of this virus and precautions and quarantine are important.
Roger Klingenberg DVM, did developed a blood test for IBD, however the drug companies did not find it economical to produce it and we are left with doing tissue samples. You can do tissue samples on a live boa, taking a small liver sample. However CSU will perform tests on the liver, pancreas, and brain tissue. The pancreas and brain tissues seem to be preferred to the liver, but the pancreas is to delicate to get from a live animal.
I have heard of a boa at one of the collages that has IBD, and has shown no signs of the disease for over 15 years. I believe that stress brings predisposed boas to active cases of this disease. For instance the cooling for breeding or the shipping for an animal. These stressing factors weaken the immune system and bring on aliments like respiratory disease, regurgitation, and neurological problems.
For all these above reasons I rarely buy boas and they are quarantined for a year, yes a year. I prefer babies as they will show symptoms early on with little stresses in their new lives.
This post from me come from the indirect and direct correspondences I have had with:
Dr Roger Klingenberg DVM
Dr. Elliott Jacobson, Florida State Universities Veterinary School
Dr. Dale Denardo, Berkeley
And of course my own life experiences and work.
Openly sharing is the best thing. It helps teach others.
First off I am a woman not a man. Second, making assumptions like this are not professional at all. I have done extensive work with reptiles and IBD. When this came up years ago I talked to Dr Roger Klingenberg DVM (a very good friend)about the impact on the show and I followed his protocol. I have also talked to Brian Potter about what he would do. So please don't assume you know what I should do, or tell me what I should do. You are not here and did not see what Nick brought to the show. Nick has some of the most amassing minerals I have ever seen. He brought no animals, not that it was your concern.
for everyone an necrospsy is always the best way to learn more.They would not be able to do that. These would have to go to CSU,
I'm not going to look for the post but here are some answers to some of the questions I found in the many posts.
I would not consider this a new disease. It has been recognized as a disease syndrome for over thirty years, but isolations of the etiologic agents was accomplished only in the last decade. This retro-virus does not survive well outside the body and transmission appears to be from direct contact with the carriers or their body fluids. Yes, mites are generally responsible for the spread of this disease through entire collections. However the exchange of body fluids from fecal contamination, nasal and salivary secretions along with sex are also contributing factors of the spread of this disease. But because IBD replicates itself so fast, it does not survive outside of a host body for very long. It must nearly be direct contact. Because IBD can lie dormant in boas for months or even years. Is evidence that boas are the natural host of this virus and precautions and quarantine are important.
Roger Klingenberg DVM, did developed a blood test for IBD, however the drug companies did not find it economical to produce it and we are left with doing tissue samples. You can do tissue samples on a live boa, taking a small liver sample. However CSU will perform tests on the liver, pancreas, and brain tissue. The pancreas and brain tissues seem to be preferred to the liver, but the pancreas is to delicate to get from a live animal.
I have heard of a boa at one of the collages that has IBD, and has shown no signs of the disease for over 15 years. I believe that stress brings predisposed boas to active cases of this disease. For instance the cooling for breeding or the shipping for an animal. These stressing factors weaken the immune system and bring on aliments like respiratory disease, regurgitation, and neurological problems.
For all these above reasons I rarely buy boas and they are quarantined for a year, yes a year. I prefer babies as they will show symptoms early on with little stresses in their new lives.
This post from me come from the indirect and direct correspondences I have had with:
Dr Roger Klingenberg DVM
Dr. Elliott Jacobson, Florida State Universities Veterinary School
Dr. Dale Denardo, Berkeley
And of course my own life experiences and work.
Openly sharing is the best thing. It helps teach others.