Bad Guy DEAD SNAKES from Kevin South of The Constrictors Labrynth

[RobNJ]

That's all well and good that Nick has amazing minerals, but the issue people have taken with Nick here is his admittedly selling a sick snake(and need to dump 2 more), his obvious lack of respect for those he buys from, sells to, and overall just about everyone in this hobby/industry, and the manner in which he represents himself. Add all that up and many people will rightfully be angered, which sometimes leads to 'mob mentality'. In this thread, I really don't see that mentality though, as much as I see many passionate people incensed by his actions/words over some very serious topics.

The 2 primary parties involved in this thread have both received a bit of a back lashing, deservedly so.

 

[boasandballs]

That's all well and good that Nick has amazing minerals, but the issue people have taken with Nick here is his admittedly selling a sick snake(and need to dump 2 more), his obvious lack of respect for those he buys from, sells to, and overall just about everyone in this hobby/industry, and the manner in which he represents himself. Add all that up and many people will rightfully be angered, which sometimes leads to 'mob mentality'. In this thread, I really don't see that mentality though, as much as I see many passionate people incensed by his actions/words over some very serious topics.

The 2 primary parties involved in this thread have both received a bit of a back lashing, deservedly so.

I'm not sure why you think he needs to "dump" 2 more. This started with one that died, and one Nick thought was sick, Kevin said he (the snake) was fine it always made noises when it breathed, and he kept it thin. Kevin gave Nick a longer health guarantee. Nick made a mistake in selling it especially when one out of the 3 that were shipped to him had already died. They both made mistakes. But it looks like both of them had the snake in question in qt and their collections are more likely safe. The only animal that is not safe is the other one that was in the box with the ones that died.

I'm not going to take sides. I'm only passing on info on IBD.

 

[Katie.Shinkle]

Nick says in one of his e-mails to Kevin that he'll need to 'dump the other snakes'. That's where Robert got that from. From Nick's own mouth...er...fingers? Whatever, the point is in the e-mails he tells Kevin that he will try to sell the sick snake and if it stays ill/dies they will go from there, then says he has to dump the other two.

 

[Lucille]

Nicholas claims that he is new and ignorant. This is just a hobby, but in this email he clearly explains what he wants and his history of having OVER 250 snakes come in and out of his care in the PAST YEAR ALONE.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: IBD, and you KNEW IT!
From: Nicholas Giavasis <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, May 10, 2011 9:36 pm
To: [email protected]

.
I have 2 dead, one which is not well. I spent x-amount, I prefer to have that amount, minus the $125 you've covered with a pair that I also need to dump because of fears they are bad too.e

Here is the quote from Nick.

 

[Katie.Shinkle]

Nicholas claims that he is new and ignorant. This is just a hobby, but in this email he clearly explains what he wants and his history of having OVER 250 snakes come in and out of his care in the PAST YEAR ALONE.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: IBD, and you KNEW IT!
From: Nicholas Giavasis <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, May 10, 2011 9:36 pm
To: [email protected]

Kevin, not sure Man.
Let us view, analyze for just a brief moment.
~The 3 snakes traveled together, in the same bag.
~I mentioned fairly quickly to you that the het Sharp was SO skinny, not eating, and looked ill.
~The above snake, het Sharp, died, and I wrote to offer you a body and or proof.
~You were kind enough to offer me the Pos VPI pair as compensation (appreciated)
~I expressed serious concern about the Pos Super, you in return told me he ate fine and you "kept him thin". I felt assured you were sincere.
~Vet told us that the snake was so close to death, he was surprised it lasted this long, and said he had not eaten if a very very long time. It died
~The post inspection should IBD caused death
~The Coral, weird, tongue will hang, acts so very odd.
~Since Coral traveled with the 2 that died, and is acting weird, maybe we can assume she is ill as well....??

Now, the second snake, dead, IBD, I paid a certain amount, I feel it fair that I receive that refunded so that I can make up at least part of the money spent on trying to save it, and to pay for the IBD report.
Also, the Coral, needs to go......to your place, or somewhere. We both know that if 2 are dead already, and IBD is reported, that the Coral most assuredly will also have IBD.
I am open to suggestions, but the fair thing to do is to refund the cost of the snakes, or have snakes sent to me from someone else, unassociated with your stock, as yours may also now be infected. I'm not sure Kev, I just want it all to go away Bud.......it's simply not fair to us. We paid for healthy snakes, we have 2 dead, and one retard.....if you did not know these snakes were ill, I'm not sure if you spent enough time with them, or you may have noticed they were less than half the weight as they should have been.
I have 2 dead, one which is not well. I spent x-amount, I prefer to have that amount, minus the $125 you've covered with a pair that I also need to dump because of fears they are bad too. Either way, I lost my money, I need help. I'm all ears, and I do not wish to argue....but right is right, and wrong is wrong. I am telling the truth, and I feel you are aware that I am telling the truth.
Also, again, I'd prefer to NOT say you sent out 3 snakes with IBD, but instead, allow you time to cure your stock, and move forward, untainted, good reputation, all this crap behind us. I know this could potential cost me many $1000's Bud, many $1000's!!!!! This is NOT a good day for us over here! Kev, I want to disappear into the sunset, but I will not do so with dead/sick snakes AND empty pockets.......you sent me sick snakes. Also, for thought, I have had over 250 snakes sent to me over the past year, maybe over 300, and none, none, were shipped together in the same bag or the same Tupperware container, none, never, ever, from nobody, none. You are a seasoned breeders, so it's very odd why you did this......especially when seasoned breeders are suppose to know better. I'm just confused Kev, absolutely confused.
What do I want, let's start with my money refunded....and you can pay for the Coral to be shipped back if you want her. She is sick, you can see it, you can sense it......she is not well, she doesn't move much, and if she continues to live, and since yours snakes were diagnosed with IBD, the Coral cannot stay here. Concerning her, you tell me what to do. Concerning my money, having it refunded would be a start to better relations and putting all of this behind us.
Thank you for listing Kevin, honestly, thank you for listening!
Nick
--- On Tue, 5/10/11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:


From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: IBD, and you KNEW IT!
To: "Nicholas Giavasis" <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, May 10, 2011, 10:08 PM

First off please explain EXACTLY what is you want from me. Thank you.
Sincerely,

Kevin South
The Constrictors Labrynth
www.theconstrictorslabrynth.com
Phone: 209-855-1229
7 days a week, 9am to 7pm-Pacific Time

Read the bold, red area.

 

[Katie.Shinkle]

Ha, Lucille beat me to it...

 

[Lucille]

and their collections are more likely safe.

I disagree. First, we don't have the final results yet so we do not know for sure what is going on.
But the seller packed three snakes together, one with a wheeze, and the buyer claimed he saw snot coming from one of the community bagged snakes. The buyer Nick in turn pulled one of these sick snakes out of quarantine and sold it.

I think such circumstances show that they both play fast and loose with the idea of quarantine, and pending final results, you couldn't GIVE me a snake from either one of them.

 

[Riyeko]

I'm not sure why you think he needs to "dump" 2 more. This started with one that died, and one Nick thought was sick, Kevin said he (the snake) was fine it always made noises when it breathed, and he kept it thin. Kevin gave Nick a longer health guarantee. Nick made a mistake in selling it especially when one out of the 3 that were shipped to him had already died. They both made mistakes. But it looks like both of them had the snake in question in qt and their collections are more likely safe. The only animal that is not safe is the other one that was in the box with the ones that died.

I'm not going to take sides. I'm only passing on info on IBD.

Thats all well and dandy and yes both parties made horrible mistakes that they should do in the future.

But you said hes only showing minerals and other things at the show..
Mites can hang a ride on clothing, in hair, on boxes... on a lot of things that hes going to be bringing to your show.
There will be other people there at the show with live reptiles.
I think that you should be more worried of an outbreak of mites and sickness in those that go to the show with live animals than who did this and who did that, and heres some info on IBD.. and everyones beating up on Nick etc etc.

 

[hhmoore]

Lynn,
While I appreciate the information you have brought to the table, I disagree that either collection is "safe" at this point. The het sharp - the one with the "wheeze" - was only in Kevin's collection for a short time....but, I don't know that Nick had a necropsy done on that one when it died. The one he sold was the poss super, which Kevin stated he'd acquired in early 2009 - that one is the one that had the necropsy, and the (I'll call it tentative) diagnosis of IBD. Kevin had that snake for 2 years, and there is no knowing at what point it might have contracted anything.
Nick, on the other hand, only had the snake for a short time; but he's admitted to having 250-300 snakes pass through his care over the past year or so. I don't know anything about Nick's quarantine procedures, or how/when he adopted them...obviously, it's none of my business, but I would certainly consider his snakes at risk for the time being.

 

[LauraB]

I disagree that either collection is "safe" at this point. The het sharp - the one with the "wheeze" - was only in Kevin's collection for a short time....but, I don't know that Nick had a necropsy done on that one when it died. The one he sold was the poss super, which Kevin stated he'd acquired in early 2009 - that one is the one that had the necropsy, and the (I'll call it tentative) diagnosis of IBD. Kevin had that snake for 2 years, and there is no knowing at what point it might have contracted anything.
Nick, on the other hand, only had the snake for a short time; but he's admitted to having 250-300 snakes pass through his care over the past year or so. I don't know anything about Nick's quarantine procedures, or how/when he adopted them ... but I would certainly consider his snakes at risk for the time being.

While I did express & still believe that IBD had not been positively identified as the cause of death, I do not believe that the possible threat of IBD to Nick's or Kevin's collection should be taken lightly ... and therefore appropriate precautions should be taken (until such time it is proven otherwise).

Amazing minerals aside (I've also been obsessed with & collecting minerals, gems, geodes and fossils for probably 30 years, and I don't confuse "rocks" with live animals where biological threats are concerned), you have to admit that a guy who willingly admits he has to "dump" certain animals for fear they are contaminated carries a clear message of concern and an unethical mind-set.

I'm also not gonna let somebody with a couple pretty rocks who might also have an infected snake(s) near my collection of anything!

Both parties (Nick and Kevin) are clearly at fault and should be avoided at this time, IMO.
Wendy & Brad are the only "victims" here, IMO.

 

[boasandballs]

Nick says in one of his e-mails to Kevin that he'll need to 'dump the other snakes'. That's where Robert got that from. From Nick's own mouth...er...fingers? Whatever, the point is in the e-mails he tells Kevin that he will try to sell the sick snake and if it stays ill/dies they will go from there, then says he has to dump the other two.

We are all different ages coming from different cultures. When he said dump, I take him to mean putting them down. Did anyone ask????? Did anyone try to educate him???? Or did you all just jump on him. Lets start by teaching, learning and asking.

I disagree. First, we don't have the final results yet so we do not know for sure what is going on.
But the seller packed three snakes together, one with a wheeze, and the buyer claimed he saw snot coming from one of the community bagged snakes. The buyer Nick in turn pulled one of these sick snakes out of quarantine and sold it.

I think such circumstances show that they both play fast and loose with the idea of quarantine, and pending final results, you couldn't GIVE me a snake from either one of them.

Yes I would agree.

I have talked to Nick and he is shutting down his collection. And what I mean by that is, all pending sales are on hold, nothing will be shipped out nothing is coming in. QT is and has been in a different part of the house. We have talked about what and how to handle this. There has been no mites in over 2 years and I checked.

Thats all well and dandy and yes both parties made horrible mistakes that they should do in the future.

But you said hes only showing minerals and other things at the show..
Mites can hang a ride on clothing, in hair, on boxes... on a lot of things that hes going to be bringing to your show.
There will be other people there at the show with live reptiles.
I think that you should be more worried of an outbreak of mites and sickness in those that go to the show with live animals than who did this and who did that, and heres some info on IBD.. and everyones beating up on Nick etc etc.

Please people don't ad-lib. This is not helping. The minerals are kept in the garage.

Lynn,
While I appreciate the information you have brought to the table, I disagree that either collection is "safe" at this point. The het sharp - the one with the "wheeze" - was only in Kevin's collection for a short time....but, I don't know that Nick had a necropsy done on that one when it died. The one he sold was the poss super, which Kevin stated he'd acquired in early 2009 - that one is the one that had the necropsy, and the (I'll call it tentative) diagnosis of IBD. Kevin had that snake for 2 years, and there is no knowing at what point it might have contracted anything.
Nick, on the other hand, only had the snake for a short time; but he's admitted to having 250-300 snakes pass through his care over the past year or so. I don't know anything about Nick's quarantine procedures, or how/when he adopted them...obviously, it's none of my business, but I would certainly consider his snakes at risk for the time being.

I missed some of this information about when Kevin got the animals. At this time Nick has asked me to advise him on how and what to do. Everything is in lock down. I have advised him how I QT and that QT means never go in the qt room and then go back into your other rooms. He does wash hands and change gloves before and after animals.

Lastly, CSU is now entering summer break. Don't expect to see that report for a month.

I wish you all happy herping and good to excellent habits keeping your animals. I hope everyone has learned something from this thread and understands this has happened to the "big breeders" It can happen to you. QT, QT, QT, Don't take short cuts.

 

[hhmoore]

Another great post....Apparently, I'm not free enough with giving karma - as I have to spread it around before giving you any more, Lynn.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Lynn, you are giving him great advice and your posts have been straight forwarded. As with all the other threads that have involved Nick lately he has found himself having a hard time with many people he has been dealing with online. In a opposing view, On several threads there has been a few locals that have dealt with Nick that express his good qualities. I assume he must be a pretty likable guy in person and some seem to thank well of his character.

I would however like to address your post to Katie.

Originally Posted by Katie.Shinkle View Post
Nick says in one of his e-mails to Kevin that he'll need to 'dump the other snakes'. That's where Robert got that from. From Nick's own mouth...er...fingers? Whatever, the point is in the e-mails he tells Kevin that he will try to sell the sick snake and if it stays ill/dies they will go from there, then says he has to dump the other two.

We are all different ages coming from different cultures. When he said dump, I take him to mean putting them down. Did anyone ask????? Did anyone try to educate him???? Or did you all just jump on him. Lets start by teaching, learning and asking.

It was asked and ignored. You addressed the "dumped" comment not the other. Nick will not address it and so far everyone else just ignores it.
In what age or culture would the word "sell" have a different meaning? It certainly wouldn't mean culling.

The snake is admittedly sick and he is increasing temps and monitoring but he is trying to get it sold within the next few days.

What I will try to do over the next few days is try to sell this guy. If he sells for more than the balance I have invested, I will send you any overage. If he does not sell or if he remains ill/dies, I will let ya know. I increased temps and will monitor daily.
You're a Pro, all the way!
Thanks-
Nick

So, when we see the word dumped in the referenced email it really isn't that much of a leap to the same meaning he already expressed he would do to the seller.

 

[Southern Wolf]

First off I am a woman not a man. Second, making assumptions like this are not professional at all. I have done extensive work with reptiles and IBD. When this came up years ago I talked to Dr Roger Klingenberg DVM (a very good friend)about the impact on the show and I followed his protocol. I have also talked to Brian Potter about what he would do. So please don't assume you know what I should do, or tell me what I should do. You are not here and did not see what Nick brought to the show. Nick has some of the most amassing minerals I have ever seen. He brought no animals, not that it was your concern.

I apologize for thinking your were a man. Im sorry for that.

I would also like you to think about this .... and think real hard.

It has been proven here that Nick will dump off animals that he know's is sick. He has said it with his own words. Do you really want to take a chance of him bringing sick animals to your future shows? Do you want people to associate your show's with sick animals.

I can promise you this much... if someone gets a sick animal from a show... the will tell others they got it from XXX show in XXXX.... then they will name the seller IF they can remember the seller.

Nicks' character, morals, and ethics have been well documented here on fauna.... do you really want to associate your show with him?

 

[[email protected]]

Whatever needs to be done folks, I am NOT lying.
I have dead snakes.
We keep our snake area like a surgical lab, CLEAN. We use gloves when cleaning. We sterilze containers with anti-bacterial as well as anti-viral. We do not allow strangers into snake area, or people to handle our snakes. We protect our snakes. There is no question the snakes are dead, LOL....dead folks.
If I explained wrong, I apologize, but they are dead. 3rd snake, tongue moving really slow, and it allows it to hang out for loner periods of time. I read an article a while back that stated this action has been noted in cases of IBD. Post-death results will be posted as soon as they are in-hand. That will determine much!
Again, I am not personally attacking Kevin. I do not know him personally. This is strictly a business matter.
Please, I hope nobody would try to make this into a battle of words, as I will not allow that to happen. I merely want resolution. Peace! But I cannot contact Kevin and have tried to email. What's a guy to do? Anyone have ideas? Please, I am not looking for allies, I am looking for sound advise and help, and communication from Kevin, so we can settle it professionally.
If I said or say anything wrong, I apologize....this is not my intent.

SO what happened to QT? Shouldn't you have left these snakes that were kept together in one bag alone to make sure they get better and don't pass something onto your customers? At the very least so they don't pass anything onto your snakes? Sorry if I posted this early but after reading a few posts about how sick the snakes were and how he said he wold them to other people i didn't think i could wait.

 

[Lucille]

I have talked to Nick and he is shutting down his collection. And what I mean by that is, all pending sales are on hold, nothing will be shipped out nothing is coming in. QT is and has been in a different part of the house. We have talked about what and how to handle this. There has been no mites in over 2 years and I checked.

I am hoping he listened to your counsel about having nothing going in or out. Looking at the classifieds here, he was answering ads and looking to buy more critters a week ago.

And, I hope you are correct about the mite situation and how thoroughly he did his qt. It looks like there were plenty of bp/boa dealers signed up at the show.

 

[Firebill]

We were not allowed in his snake room, which I can't argue with. Each snake was brought out to the loving room to us, as well as a.large. bottle of sanitizer.

Wendy, all the snakes that he brought out, did he bring them all out of the same room or from different rooms? Thanks for you replies.

 

[milkshake8882]

I can't answer that question one way or another. He went to a different part of the house, and we were in the living room at all times.

 

[Devon Hodgins]

Do you have other boids in your collection, Wendy?

 

[milkshake8882]

Yes I do. They have ALL been placed on qt. And no, I don't sell or trade, or breed if that was a next question..