Bad Guy DEAD SNAKES from Kevin South of The Constrictors Labrynth

[milkshake8882]

OMG!!! Do some of you guys even think before you talk???? I was giving a hypothetical!!!! Its not saying that i would TRY to REHOME ANY snakes!!!!! Man, some of you guys are THICK man, and just out to make a bad guy.... all i can say is that some of you are hopeless. You dont know me. All you know about me is that i bought a snake that had to be euthed, and provided info to back up why. Dont try to twist my words and make them something that they are not.

 

[JCCS]

That snake came in the same bag as a snake that the person that sold it to you knew was sick, and in his words, dumped it on you, and you're not pissed at him as well. In my opinion, both of those guys, but especially Nick couldn't care less about anything than not taking a monetary loss.

I also agree on the point that I doubt Nick will stop selling snakes that have potentially been exposed to these animals, just as he didn't think twice about selling that snake that was directly exposed to a known sick animal. It's just a crappy situation and the people involved here need to think about the big picture instead of their own wallets.

Chris

 

[Focal]

ok... Maybe you need to re-read some of my posts.... There is no "Business as usual" since there is NO business for me. I dont breed, sell or trade, so no, there is no "continue to move through their hands and on to other unsuspecting people...." Watch what your thowing around about people... Yes, i did say that Nick provided me with 3 more snakes, and yes i said that they are all on Q now in a seperate area, but NEVER in ANY of my posts did i EVER say that there was "busines..."

I think everyone in this thread is aware that there isn't a "business" end on your part. I truly doubt that was what Sam was implying. I would say he was refering to the two individuals that already, knowingly, sold a sick snake. That would not include you.

 

[RobNJ]

ok.. well, let me try the exact phrasing again. When i got the snake he was THIN, not emaciated. within a month of having him, he just became grossly emaciated... After trying to force feed him as well. I would hope that the pictures that were provided by the original owner of the snake as well as the ones i provided would show the rapid deterioration of the animals condition. Im not a vet, but work in the animal welfare field... i know when an animal is thin, and when its emaciated. Am i concerned about my collection? OF COURSE I AM. Is it concerning? OF COURSE IT IS. Did nick say that he was going to try to sell a sick snake? YES HE DID. However, he didnt knowingly sell ME a sick snake. I can give much opinion about he statements of holding the snake, trying to sell it etc, but the snake he sold me was not known to be sick, so how can i be irrate? If anything, im upset with the person that said "I like to keep my males on the light side." Thats the person that had to have known the animal was sick when he sold it.

When Nick started this thread, he stressed the poor manner in which the snakes were shipped AND his concern over there health from the very beginning...therefore, he very well knew that the snakes shouldn't have been sold.

And Wendy, I don't believe it's uncommon for breeders to keep there males on maintenance feeding schedules and keeping them rather light. Overly thin and on the light side, however, are very different, IMO.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Did nick say that he was going to try to sell a sick snake? YES HE DID. However, he didnt knowingly sell ME a sick snake. I can give much opinion about he statements of holding the snake, trying to sell it etc, but the snake he sold me was not known to be sick, so how can i be irrate?

And this is what's wrong with this hobby and this country. It's OK cause it didn't happen to me. Forget everyone else that it DID happen to. As long as it didn't happen to me.... I dont have a problem with it.

That is the exact thought process that will destroy this hobby and ultimately this country. Too many folks are looking the other way when something is wrong because it didn't happen to them.

By not being irrate you seem to condone his actions.... when instead you should be irrate that IT COULD HAVE been you that got the sick snake in question. The fact that you aren't kinda lends insite into your character. If I found out someone I bought an animal from was knowingly trying to sell sick animals... I wouldn't be giving him praise... I'd be ripping him a new one. Doesn't matter if my animal was healthy.

Guess your forgetting that your snake wasn't healthy. Now it may or may not have contacted IBD in his collection. We may never know, but that is one downside to dealing with a flipper. You'll never really know where the infection came from... tooo many animals moving in and out.

I agree that both Nick and Kevin should shut down their WHOLE collection. By not doing so they both put everyone's collection at risk.

 

[Pasodama]

As I said from the start, I would like to know who this reputable seller is that Kevin acquired the snake from because it sounds like a pawn off.

There may not be a need, for clarification, but just in case ...
The snake, that was, allegedly, from a "reputable dealer", is the het Sharp and is not the one that Wendy purchased.
Wendy purchased the Poss. Super. (and it was the Poss. Super. that has tested positive for IBD).
The het Sharp, that allegedly came from a reputable dealer (and, allegedly, had not been in Kevin's possession very long) is the one that died while still in Nick's possession (the one that Nick stated he was going to try to sell and that, if it remained ill or died <prior to being able to sell>, would let Kevin know). The het Sharp was stated to have had a wheeze (and mucous?) before it died. While it could be seen as another suspect, it cannot be assumed that it also had IBD since it was not tested.
The Poss. Super (which was sold to Wendy and tested positive for IBD) had been in Kevin's possession for at least 2 yrs. (prior to being sold to Nick). Since the Poss. Super had been in Kevin's possession, for so long, (and though anything is possible) it cannot be assumed that the IBD came from the person/breeder who sold it to Kevin (in Jan. 2009).

As a side note ... (Along with Nick) I hope that Kevin has been reading, and takes the right steps/measures, since he had the IBD positive snake, in his collection, for a minimum of 2 yrs.

 

[ssshane]

I HONESTLY THOUGHT I had fully explained that the Het did have a "WHEEZE" but was examined by a Vet and cleared with a clean bill of health aside from an unexplainable "wheeze". He was a solid eater with no regurgitation issues and had NO DRAINAGE coming out of him at anytime.

Was there any proof of a clean bill of health shown?

 

[Pasodama]

Its not saying that i would TRY to REHOME ANY snakes!!!!!

Wendy, everyone knows that you are a "victim" (although you do not appear to feel that way), or simply a buyer of a "pet" (that happened to be sick), and that you are not in a business to sell snakes.
Other aspects aside...If Nick did not disclose, to you, that the Poss. Super arrived in the same bag as a sick snake ... that, in itself, is poor ethics &/or a poor business practice.
I think people are just "taken aback" that you do not feel victimized &/or just view one or two, of Nick's actions, as an excusable "mistake" (although, in his own words, Nick has shown that he would, knowingly, sell an ill snake). As far as I am concerned, how you feel, toward Nick, is your choice and is neither here nor there.
However, since you have received more snakes from Nick, I hope that you keep the intent to possess them for the rest of their lives but,... should something happen (where you absolutely cannot keep them),... either give full disclosure, to a potential buyer/recipient, OR, if, after full disclosure, they cannot be sold or given away, euthanize them (esp. if they cannot be, 100%, proven IBD free).
As for Nick and Kevin ... both of them ~are~ in the business, to buy/sell snakes, and it is ~them~ that need to take certain measures but that, apparently, people are doubting would do the right thing.

 

[Gecko_Den]

ok... Maybe you need to re-read some of my posts.... There is no "Business as usual" since there is NO business for me. I dont breed, sell or trade, so no, there is no "continue to move through their hands and on to other unsuspecting people...." Watch what your thowing around about people... Yes, i did say that Nick provided me with 3 more snakes, and yes i said that they are all on Q now in a seperate area, but NEVER in ANY of my posts did i EVER say that there was "busines..."

Semantics aside, your collection has been exposed to IBD. What do you intend to do about it?

 

[hhmoore]

I just sent Kevin a link to the report attached in post 335 - it seemed appropriate under the circumstances, since he hasn't logged onto this site since the 19th.
Hopefully, he will see fit to comment.

 

[ShadowAceD]

There may not be a need, for clarification, but just in case ...
The snake, that was, allegedly, from a "reputable dealer", is the het Sharp and is not the one that Wendy purchased.
Wendy purchased the Poss. Super. (and it was the Poss. Super. that has tested positive for IBD).
The het Sharp, that allegedly came from a reputable dealer (and, allegedly, had not been in Kevin's possession very long) is the one that died while still in Nick's possession (the one that Nick stated he was going to try to sell and that, if it remained ill or died <prior to being able to sell>, would let Kevin know). The het Sharp was stated to have had a wheeze (and mucous?) before it died. While it could be seen as another suspect, it cannot be assumed that it also had IBD since it was not tested.
The Poss. Super (which was sold to Wendy and tested positive for IBD) had been in Kevin's possession for at least 2 yrs. (prior to being sold to Nick). Since the Poss. Super had been in Kevin's possession, for so long, (and though anything is possible) it cannot be assumed that the IBD came from the person/breeder who sold it to Kevin (in Jan. 2009).

As a side note ... (Along with Nick) I hope that Kevin has been reading, and takes the right steps/measures, since he had the IBD positive snake, in his collection, for a minimum of 2 yrs.

If one animal from someone's collection, no matter the length of time it was in their posession, turns up with a positive indication of IBD, then it must be assumed that any animal within that collection could have been compromised. It also must be assumed that any animal who subsequently becomes ill has done so because it too has contracted the disease.

This is how a disease, very much shrouded in unknonws like IBD, has to be treated.

The animal in Kevin's collection very well could have had IBD for two years and it was never active. It has been shown IBD can be present in boas, in a dormant state and then suddenly triggered by stressful situations (i.e. shipping or illness or ... whatever other thigns can stress boas). Once triggered, the deterioration of the animal is fairly rapid.

The animals were shipped in the same bag. One was leaking fluids. This animal very well could have been the active IBD carrier and passed it onto the one that ended up in Wendy's hands in this manner as fluid swap is the only definitively known transmission source of IBD. In fact, it would not surprise me if this animal was the carrier, the stress of the RI and shipping opened the IBD, his fluids dripped all over the other animals, the pos. super contracted it in this manner, it activated immediately from stress and the disease destroyed him soon thereafter.

This is all ... speculation, but ... logical speculation.

Kevin, Nick and Wendy (if she has other animals) all now have compromised collections.

Why? Because proper quarantine was never in place and because the safe/intelligent thing to do is shut down a collection when IBD shows up in an animal that is in the main collection or has had any contact with that collection.

 

[ShadowAceD]

i didnt plan on rehoming them anytime soon. But having to maybe get rid of them many years down the road because of who knows what is "business as usual." Lets be frank, happens. People die, get laid off, etc. So no matter if you own a snake, dog, or a goat, sometimes life doesnt give the chance to keep your animals, and maybe you might HAVE to rehome them, but i dont see how that would be "business as usual." I have pitbulls, and have had to move several times in the last few years, and we even had to remain homeless for a week because we WOULD NOT give up our dogs, they are family... as well as the cats, and the snakes. I hope this answered your question....?

I do not know the extent of animals you have ... but if you have other animals that can contract IBD, if/when a time comes to "rehome" them, they really should just be destroyed.

Sorry, but that is really the only safe thing to do.

If you give one of those animals to someone else, you are no better than any other flipper knowingly selling/giving away a sick snake.

 

[ShadowAceD]

ok.. well, let me try the exact phrasing again. When i got the snake he was THIN, not emaciated. within a month of having him, he just became grossly emaciated... After trying to force feed him as well. I would hope that the pictures that were provided by the original owner of the snake as well as the ones i provided would show the rapid deterioration of the animals condition. Im not a vet, but work in the animal welfare field... i know when an animal is thin, and when its emaciated. Am i concerned about my collection? OF COURSE I AM. Is it concerning? OF COURSE IT IS. Did nick say that he was going to try to sell a sick snake? YES HE DID. However, he didnt knowingly sell ME a sick snake. I can give much opinion about he statements of holding the snake, trying to sell it etc, but the snake he sold me was not known to be sick, so how can i be irrate? If anything, im upset with the person that said "I like to keep my males on the light side." Thats the person that had to have known the animal was sick when he sold it.

He sold you a snake that had been exposed to the fluids of another snake that was sick. He knowingly sold you a compromised animal.

You likely misunderstood the context or phrasing, but it is not uncommon for breeding males to be lean. Just because the animal is lean does not mean it is sick. I have males who are very lean, but very muscular, not emaciated and not mistreated.

You seem to be confused as to where your anger should be directed. Whether you want to see the truth or not, Nick knowingly dumped an animal that may have been getting sick on you. It had been shipped with an animal leaking fluids. What happens when a person with the flu swaps spit with someone who does not? Generally, the person without the flu contracts it. It is no different for the snakes.

Nick has damaged your collection because your collection needs to be completely shut down now. No one comes in, no one comes out. It sucks, but that is what happens when you get animals from unknown sources. Everyone has to learn, unfortunately, some people have to get harder lessons than others.

 

[reptiguy909]

Anytime you bring accusations against someone you open yourself up for scruetny (sp?). If your practices are lacking... then you're going to be made away of it. If you continue to lie you're gonna be made aware of it.

Guess your ok with his way of doing business?

its not that im ok with it its the fact that this guy came to ask advice not to have ppl breathe down his neck and tear apart every single word he says. is anyone here that continues to badger this guy, affected in any way by wat has transpired? im guessing not since nobody has said anythin............. regardless of whether he mixed his words up, didnt explain correctly, or lied wat is it to ANY of u? and how is it that hes the one being scrutinized? y not look at the guy that sold him the bad snakes in the first place? ya he made stupid decisions but so did the supplier so look at both sides before castings judgement or stones for that matter. not takin sides just sayin chill out

 

[reptiguy909]

souther wolf u r just too much if the persons not irrate than theyre not irrate they have theyre reasons and who r u to question them?

 

[weird_science04]

I do not know Nick at all and from reading this thread, yes, he did make mistakes and yes, he did say stuff that he has not explained, which has lead to the questioning of his integrity. I agree with this; however, I can understand what Randy is saying because at least Nick HAS admitted what he did was wrong repeatedly, even if he is avoiding certain questions. I agree with Randy and Harold that Kevin South needs to come and start talking about the new facts presented.

Wendy, my heart goes out to you once again. In no way are you the bad person in this situation. I do not know how you quarantine and I am not going to assume you didn't quarantine but with good quarantine methods, I believe you can stop the spread of IBD in a collection and keep your collection safe. However, the quarantine methods must be excellent in order for the possibility of IBD to stay an isolated incident. Good luck with your small collection and hopefully nothing else will get sick ever.

Star

 

[reptiguy909]

thank you wierd science...... im not defending anyone but the guy fessed up and said he made mistakes just leave it at that he hasnt INTENTIONALLY hurt anyone..... there were MISTAKES made all around

 

[ShadowAceD]

I do not know Nick at all and from reading this thread, yes, he did make mistakes and yes, he did say stuff that he has not explained, which has lead to the questioning of his integrity. I agree with this; however, I can understand what Randy is saying because at least Nick HAS admitted what he did was wrong repeatedly, even if he is avoiding certain questions. I agree with Randy and Harold that Kevin South needs to come and start talking about the new facts presented.

Wendy, my heart goes out to you once again. In no way are you the bad person in this situation. I do not know how you quarantine and I am not going to assume you didn't quarantine but with good quarantine methods, I believe you can stop the spread of IBD in a collection and keep your collection safe. However, the quarantine methods must be excellent in order for the possibility of IBD to stay an isolated incident. Good luck with your small collection and hopefully nothing else will get sick ever.

Star

Nick may have admitted he was wrong, but you are missing the larger picture.

Until there is a cure or a 100% sure fire way to say an animal does not have IBD, there is NO way to guarantee it will not spread to a collection. This disease has been around for decades and yet very little is known about it. In recent years, steps have been taken to understand it more, but it is still very much shrouded in mystery.

IBD is RARELY an isolated incident, and if quarantine methods were already lacking before the confirmed report, suddenly fixing the methods will not turn back time.

A responsible keeper/breeder would assume all of its animals are compromised and treat them as such.

 

[weird_science04]

Nick may have admitted he was wrong, but you are missing the larger picture.

Until there is a cure or a 100% sure fire way to say an animal does not have IBD, there is NO way to guarantee it will not spread to a collection. This disease has been around for decades and yet very little is known about it. In recent years, steps have been taken to understand it more, but it is still very much shrouded in mystery.

IBD is RARELY an isolated incident, and if quarantine methods were already lacking before the confirmed report, suddenly fixing the methods will not turn back time.

A responsible keeper/breeder would assume all of its animals are compromised and treat them as such.

Shadow, I am not missing the large picture because I completely agree that Nick has some explaining to do and what he did was wrong. I also agree that there is no guarantee that anyone's collection is safe when IBD is found. Additionally, I know there are so many things we still need to learn about IBD. I also agree that a responsible keeper/breeder should take actions as if their whole collection is compromised to make sure they don't compromise other people's collection. I don't disagree with what people are saying.

All I was indicating was that I could understand where Randy was coming from because while this whole thing is a mess, we have not seen an apology from Kevin yet about selling an IBD infected snake. We have not seen him respond or say anything in a while and the heat was not on him but on Nick who has done plenty of wrong things and has admitted that he made mistakes (even if he still hasn't answered really important questions). The heat needs to also be on Kevin, which is how I read Randy's thread.

IBD is a very serious issue and none of the members involved should take this lightly. What I was trying to convey to Wendy was if she did quarantine excellent then maybe she won't have other snakes die. It is horrible to have parts of your family die and it would be a shame for her to see her small collection waste away from a bad purchase. I by no means am telling her to sell her collection or give it away but just saying that it is possible for her to continue to enjoy her collection if she did quarantine properly for years to come. Since this is just possible that doesn't mean it will happen nor does it mean it's likely to happen, just possible.

Star

 

[Devon Hodgins]

its not that im ok with it its the fact that this guy came to ask advice not to have ppl breathe down his neck and tear apart every single word he says. is anyone here that continues to badger this guy, affected in any way by wat has transpired? im guessing not since nobody has said anythin............. regardless of whether he mixed his words up, didnt explain correctly, or lied wat is it to ANY of u? and how is it that hes the one being scrutinized? y not look at the guy that sold him the bad snakes in the first place? ya he made stupid decisions but so did the supplier so look at both sides before castings judgement or stones for that matter. not takin sides just sayin chill out

First off, he didn't come here to get advice. He came here to voice his dealings with Kevin South. That is the point of the Boi. However, you can't just come here and sling mud at someone and not be asked for proof. That is just crazy.

Most if not all of what he said is going to be question because of his habitual lying. He brought all of his accusations here and tried to smear Kevin's name with mud. All of this without one ounce of proof and just as much truth.

I am not saying Kevin should not be "grilled" here as well. However he has handled this matter much more professionally and truthfully.

I hope that cleared some of the issues up.