Deal With Andre Of ASF Reptiles Gone Bad

[gmherps]

Way too many holes in your story Andre. If you were so concerned about the snake, why oh why would you attempt to breed it?

Also, you quote: Maybe from Paul's point of view it should be "I got my money and I am not giving it back, I have NO TOS or NO Customer Service."

You claim to be GODLY, now why would you PUT words into Paul's mouth like that? Obviously he doesn't see the story as such.

Also, having camera at home and not being able to take a picture of it is no excuse. How about carting the little dead thing home and snapping a few pics to send to Paul just before you make the inital phone call? It's called backing up your claim and the story.

I'm sorry Andre, as well as others here on the board are right now, but you made way too many errors in basic husbandry to be afforded any type of refund. TOS and Customer Service do not cover (at least my TOS doesn't) ignorance on the keepers (new customer) part.

 

[Junkyard]

Andre, you accepted the snake as a nonfeeding snake. According to you that is why it died. Your fault, not Paul's. According to your terms, you did not follow through by shipping the snake back when you had the first inclination that something was wrong.

Even after only 9 weeks of quarantine for females, you decided to put an unhealthy snake in to breed a female. That is not proper quarantine for the male and you may have infected your female. What are you thinking?

Also, were you feeding the appropriate food size for the snake? Did you try rats and mice? If it was such a worry to you, did you try feeding the snake gerbils?

Andre, do you know how to properly care for a sick ball python? My guess is NO!

Andre, do you know how to properly care for a healthy ball python?

 

[Cat_72]

Andre.....obviously not eating for a mere 5 weeks is NOT going to kill an otherwise healthy Ball Python.

What do YOU think killed it, if not an untreated RI?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Andre, thanks for coming here to respond.

I debated whether or not to post again in this thread after reading your reply, as venturing a dissent when up against the facts (at least 36 of them) and God is a formidable thing ! But here goes:
No one disputes your anguish at the loss of the snake, or that you had any reason to think death was imminent. But most, if not all here, believe that full responsibility for the health of the snake had shifted to you during that 5 week time frame. Since you did not notice anything worthy of medical concern, as it was your "partner" who mentioned something early on and which you did not take seriously, the animal was denied medical attention, which in hindsight, may have made a big difference. I am being a bit facetious here, but I don't believe you were guaranteed an indestructable snake, and the consensus is that the death was on you.

The deal went "bad" for Paul when he was faced with having to send you a refund or face the loss of thousands of dollars more via the BOI. Those were the options that you put before him, not that he chose to face. If I were Paul, I would have felt that I was now in a "bad" deal as well.

Andre, no one doubts that you have many satisfied and happy customers, and we wish you many more. But ss a God-fearing individual, I also cringe a bit when I see His name invoked so as to add credibility to one side or the other. He gave us the Golden Rule, and I expect that he felt that was more than sufficient as a guide in business dealings. Not surprisingly, where different folks have used reference to Him in their positions in some threads of late, the Golden Rule was difficult to find. I looked for it in your post, and could not find it. I did of course, find all the facts and God.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Andre,

You need to revise one of your "facts", and is the one that most ball pythons shed during transit and or shortly upon arrival. I have never seen that thing happen myself or even referenced in the literature. One other thing is the issue of the 5 week time span. When I see people guaranteeing a feeding ball python I sometimes smile. Those that work with the species know that any change in environment can trigger a non-feeding response. The opposite is also true, any change in their environment can trigger a feeding response. In short, they are quite unpredictable as far as their feeding responses goes. I agree with you that two weeks without eating should not be considered a fast. Some animals resume their feeding after 2 weeks particularly when adapting to new surroundings, if they are close to pass feces or shed.

 

[Scott Ashton]

Andre, no one doubts that you have many satisfied and happy customers, and we wish you many more.

Based upon the lack of husbandry described within this thread I can absolutely say I will NOT be a customer of Andre's - ever!

But ss a God-fearing individual, I also cringe a bit when I see His name invoked so as to add credibility to one side or the other. He gave us the Golden Rule, and I expect that he felt that was more than sufficient as a guide in business dealings. Not surprisingly, where different folks have used reference to Him in their positions in some threads of late, the Golden Rule was difficult to find. I looked for it in your post, and could not find it. I did of course, find all the facts and God.

Well said.

Once and for all - religion is NOT a marketing tool. Nor as Chamco relates should it ever be used as a defense in such matters.

Is the assumption that someone who holds them self out as pious - is? I can think of more than one person taken to task in the BOI who has proclaimed themselves to be so and been proven to be nothing more than 2 bit thief.


-Scott Ashton

 

[Chameleon Company]

I at times frown on what I am about to do.

So for better of for worse, I post below an email that I received from Andre this afternoon, in its entirety. Smite me if I so deserve:

Subject:#2 commandment in New Testament

Hi Jim,

Love your neighbor like you love yourself

Treat your neighbor as you would like to be treated yourself

feed you neighbor what you would like to be fed

do onto your neighbor as you would want things done to you

**************
what are you getting at?
do you think Mr Wyble would want these same actions to be taken against him? If he was buyer, do you? I dont think so.
Many people know this commandment but fail to ignore what it says and means.
And if this question is for me please be Bold and Full of the Holy Spirit and speak to my heart. If I hear you then I know it is my Father in Heaven speaking but if not, I will not answer. For the sheep will hear the voice of the Good Shepard and now His voice.

*******************
If I have taken the Lord's name in vain here on this post then may the Lord Almighty forgive me.

In the same way if you have judged me may you be judged.
If you are going to preach to me then please know you may get preached to with your own words.
When we ask others to do something we must ask ourselves is the question for him/her or for me GOD?

Mercy will be given to those who show mercy.
but you knew this.

Forgive as I, the Lord Almighty, have forgiven you.
I was willing and I have forgiven but I was attacked and after careful thought and prayer I responding to those attacks with the Truth.
I owe a much bigger debt to GOD than $1250 Mr Flaherty.
He has forgiven much more than $1250 for me and for ALL.
***I wish and prayed that everyone knew this about themselves and acted like it.***
The debt has been forgiven by me without Mr Wyble asking. BUT will Mr Wyble ask GOD Almighty to forgive him of all his trespasses. IF so I think GOD will compel Mr Wylble to Treat your neighbor as he would like to be treated yourself and pay any debt needed if necessary.

If you ask your Father in Heaven for a piece of bread should He give you a scorpion. NO!
If I ask for a conclusion/resolution to "this purchase" will He then not give me one.
I am at Peace about this. Are you Mr Flaherty.

***************
anything else?
call me if so
you have my #
be Bold enough in the Holy Spirit to call if you want to speak to me further.

GOD Bless You with Wisdom and Understanding.
Andre
ASFReptiles

For the record he did provide me his phone number, which I have omitted. As to my boldness, I think that I have "one-upped" you there by also subjecting myself to all readers here. The only part of your post which I believe rates a devil's advocate of an answer in my mind is this

do you think Mr Wyble would want these same actions to be taken against him? If he was buyer, do you? I dont think so.

I do not know Mr. Wyble, but feel that he would respond that he feels that if the shoe were on the other foot, he would have handled it as he expects you to have. Speaking for my own self, I can say that I have been involved in countless reptile transactions, for far more money than $1250, where the animal(s) succumbed in less than 5 weeks, but outside of the TOS for the deal. I believe that in every instance, I not only absorbed the loss, but never even felt compelled to register a complaint with the seller. The choice as to whether or not I continued to do business with that entity is beyond the current topic of this thread, and would be judged by all to be my prerogative. If you had exercised the same restraint and discipline that many of us feel you should have, this thread would not be here.
If the Lord wants you to have your $1250 Andre, then go buy a lottery ticket. You have made it quite clear that God is on your side, and he can make you a winner if its his intention, and the Holy Spirit will fill your heart, kicking out the greed and pride that currently consumes you !! Can I have an AMEN !!

 

[Pavo]

AMEN!!!

sorry couldn't help it...........

 

[Junkyard]

Andre, not to make this thread a religious one, I do have a question for you. Through all of this, you have yet to show that you are a trusting individual. You are inconsitant, you blame others for your mistakes, and you remove yourself from all responsibilities by your actions and words. So here is my question to you.

You may be on God's side, but is God on your side?

 

[Clay Davenport]

One question keeps coming back to me. Andre, with all your religious grandstanding, declarations of prayer and supplication, and most importantly your repeated invocation of the Golden Rule, in all honesty before the Lord Almighty and this board, what exactly would you have done if the situation had been perfectly reversed?
Had you sold Paul an adult pastel male which died five weeks later having not eaten nor bred for him, would you just have apologized and sent his money back in full no questions asked? Would you have considered the responsibility entirely your own and not questioned his actions during the preceeding five weeks?
I only ask because this is apparently how you feel you should have been treated and I can't help but wonder, with the Golden Rule in mind, if that is how you would have handled it.

 

[gmherps]

Andre, not to make this thread a religious one, I do have a question for you. Through all of this, you have yet to show that you are a trusting individual. You are inconsitant, you blame others for your mistakes, and you remove yourself from all responsibilities by your actions and words. So here is my question to you.

You may be on God's side, but is God on your side?

Very good points.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Andre

Your kidding right? You bred a new male to a female you've had for only 9 weeks . Its dead and you want a refund? How do you know it was'nt the new female that killed it? How do you get a good name running a pastel mill with husbandry and breeding practices like that? I've seen your ads for months, your company is a joke. After reading your posts I now FIRMLY believe I made the right decision months ago to mark you off my list of who to buy from.

 

[Scott Ashton]

You may be on God's side, but is God on your side?

I don't take sides.


-Scott Ashton

 

[Junkyard]

Good thing that was not directed to you.

 

[Whitewater Reptiles]

Clay has made a good point, But at this time it's all too easy for Andre to say oh yeah, sure that's exactly what I'd do, send him his money back no problem And then go onto more of his preachings. More wars have been created from religion than anything else and this guy freaks me out. Why doesn't Andre just hold his chin up and let the big man upstairs decide? He had the animal for 5 weeks and seems to me that he was more interested in getting it to breed than he was to get it to feed. And if his partner thought it might have a mild R.I. why didn't his partner check back with Andre to make sure the animal was O.K.
Or is his partner (maybe the investor) angry with Andre for not taking care of the animal properly. I don't know but one thing for sure is that an 04 Ball Python doesn't get to 800 grams by not eating.
NO REFUND!!!!
I could see a credit or refund if their was more communication and the animal was taken to a Vet. in an attempt make it right. But I don't think it had an R.I. in the first place and a necropsy should be done because I'd be more concerned about the balance of my collection.
Mike Derks

 

[Alias47]

How is this a "Deal gone bad"?
I make purchase, Paul Wyble receives money in full, I get 2 animals, and 1 dies in 5 weeks after NEVER Eating.
Maybe from Paul's point of view it should be "I got my money and I am not giving it back, I have NO TOS or NO Customer Service."
And from my point of view is should be "Purchase gone bad, animal dies after 5 weeks having NEVER eaten for me.

You are blatantly implying that this animal died due to malnutrition or unwillingness to eat. Ummm...how long have you owned snakes? Just curious...because you are reacting like you are new.
A Ball Python refusing to eat for five weeks at this time of year is NOT unusual...especially when you have introduced him to several females. Hell I have Ball Pythons that have gone for several MONTHS without losing enough body weight to see a difference...less than 2% of body weight in MONTHS...
If this snake was large enough to breed...which I assume it was since you intorduced it to your females...he should have no problem with going 5 weeks without eating. If he was malnourished enough that 5 weeks without eating killed him...you would have been able to see it's emaciation the day you received him and should have immediately asked for a refund...
I am not surprised it didn't eat with the temps as low as you keep them...probably thought he was brumating.

I can only think of ONE reptile company that has a written TOS that covers animals for this length of time...5 weeks in your care is definitely long enough for your husbandry (or lack thereof) to kill this animal...it is not the sellers responsibility...he sent you a healthy snake...and it died in your care.
If it is not your direct fault...it certainly is not his...unless a necropsy proves that it was something extenuating that was directly due to his care or facility...I don't think you deserve a refund.

You can post as many good experiences as a seller as you want...it is all irrelevant...you can be the best seller in the world...doesn't mean you are not a terrible customer. Besides...you invoked the wrath of God on the people who doubted you...maybe, since you are so close to God and all, you can ask Him what happened to your BP. Now that it has been frozen for several days...a necropsy will probably be worthless..so this is your best bet.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I am hoping that Andre is giving everything some thought. I am also concluding from his words that he does not welcome that this incident became a BOI thread as initiated by Paul. My view would be that if it had just been a disagreement between them, after the demise of the snake, where Andre expressed to Paul that Paul bore some responsibility, and Paul said "thanks but no thanks", that they could have decided to not do business together again, and that could have been the end of it. As to Andre's anguish, it exists because he chose to raise the threat of the BOI, not Paul, and it put Paul in the position of feeling that he had to pre-empt the situation. As you examine things Andre, I think that three possibilities exist in which to explain that the consensus of opinions is running exclusively against you. There may be more, but these are all that come to my mind:

1) Those that have posted in disagreement of you have not prayed enough, if we pray at all, or perhaps we are praying ot the wrong entity;

2) Webslave is only allowing those members with views contrary to yours to post, and has successfully invoked a program to weed out pro-Andre posts;

3) The consensus of the knowledgable reptile community that have the ability to post here, most of whom do not know you or Paul, feel that you made some mistakes, either in husbandry, or the assessment of responsibility to Paul, or both.

No one can say that the animal was without flaw, even fatal flaw, when it arrived to you. What most of us are saying is that within the realm of accepted business practice for reptile transactions, the responsibility for the animal had completely shifted to you. A few of us also feel that you have invoked some divine support that, while not questioning how your spiritual life guides you, is inappropriate. For you to expect us to validate our views within the framework of your spiritual faith and beliefs is not going to get any traction here, or in any other mixed-faith forum.

 

[norsmis]

For you to expect us to validate our views within the framework of your spiritual faith and beliefs is not going to get any traction here, or in any other mixed-faith forum.

Hallelujah Brother! Say it again so we all hear it!
You always know exactly how to say it Jim and I think you have actually out done yourself this time.

Awesome post!

Andre, not even God can help you on this one brother..... give it up.

 

[DaveyFig]

2) Webslave is only allowing those members with views contrary to yours to post, and has successfully invoked a program to weed out pro-Andre posts;

It is taking me about 2 minutes to load each page on fauna, and has been for about a week or two now, so I don't really want to check, but the last time I saw it, Wasn't there a post made by Andre with a big list of people who had done business with him along with quotes of satisfaction and praise?I know that you are being sarcastic and I probably shouldn't have used your post in a quote sir, but it is what made me think about it.
Isn't that against the TOS? I know that if I write you an email, and haven't paid my membership, and ask you to post it for me , it gets deleted.You just can't use the back door to post the thoughts of non-paid members.
Andre, I think it was wrong to post those experiences that have nothing to do with any of this.By posting them here in defense of this it looks like you may be trying to show that those people condone, or aprove of your actions with this deal, Have you made any of those people aware of this thread so that they may post their experience? I wonder how many would say that they think you are doing the right thing.I also wonder how many of them would actually be willing to pay 10 bucks to come here and say something in support of you.

Anyway, enough about that.
I think that Andre is just greedy. Anyone who cared about the snake would have taken it to a qualified professional for analysis, if not for the possible RI, then the RI combined with non eating. Not eating and mild RIs generally are not MAJOR issues, but when you couple them it could be caused by something more serious. I wonder if Andre thought "Well, if I pay for the vet, I am out this much more money, and then what if Paul doesn't pay for those costs?"
Well, I tell you what Andre, if those thoughts ever crossed your mind, here is your answer.
If in fact Paul had sent you a sick snake, and it was found by a veterinarian to be something pre-existing, and Paul refused to work with you at all, you would have all of the leverage here. You could say a lot of nasty things about him, and probably 90%+ of readers would see things your way.Paul would look like scum, and would either offer something in compensation, or be forever looked down upon by the community.
However, that didn't happen. You skimped on the care of your snake. Skimped a few hundred on vet bills(that could have been refunded, but we will never know), a few bucks on rats(who cares if it doesn't eat as long as it breeds), a few pennies on electric bills(80°...seriously?), a little on tub space by housing snakes together. It all ads up to poor husbandry, and basically not caring.
Paul isn't the bad guy here. A month ago Paul might have been easier to talk to. With a living snake to work with, there are many angles that could have been worked. You let the snake die though, and that is that.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Dave,
When I said "pro-Andre", I meant "pro" to his position here. Even I have made comments in my posts wishing Andre well (pro-Andre), but just do not agree with his position and actions with regard to his deal with Paul.