Deformity Question

[1derfool]

If the animal is Urban Gecko bloodline I think it is something genetic. I used a pure Urban male tang this year and hatched a couple like that. Also another breeder has hatched at least one like that from Urban bloodlines. Too many years of inbreeding.

Phewww, at least I'm not the only one on this bandwagon. I was beginning to suspect 'possibly' something along those lines but there was nobody else saying anything like it, I kept quiet and just kept looking.

I saw a hatchling with a completely curled tail like a pig (not my hatchling, but someone I know). The tail was so curled it could wrap around one of the back legs. It was given to a friend of mine to work with, and with a LOT of TLC, she managed to get the tail uncurled for the most part. Seems it straightened out considerably as it gain size and girth, still 'curved' but not as bad as it was at first.

I also saw one for sale at a show marked 'pigtailed leo'. It was just pathetic, the tail was fat and plump but curled like a cinnamon danish. This tail obviously didn't straighten up as it fattened up.

What both those geckos had in common was breeder (UG) the parents came from.

Last year I had one DIS leo which showed a possibly curled tail. It was barely halfway through incubation, so I don't know for sure how reliable a curly tail is at that stage of development, but it was curlier than I'd expect to see in an embryo. The mother was also 7 years old, her last year of producing eggs from the looks of it, she didn't lay any this year at all. I thought at first it might have been her age affecting the quality of the eggs. The father has been retired since he's too aggressive a breeder for my liking, but he's the UG bloodline. If it is genetic like I'm beginning to suspect, there's no way I'll be producing any from that pair since neither is breeding anymore. However, there are a lot of relatives of the male out there, I'm wondering how many more curlies we'll see before long.

 

[sschind]

My guess is that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg with deformities in Leopard Geckos. With everyone getting into the morph game looking for easy money on high priced morphs we will continue to see increased incidences of deformities as people rush to produce the latest, most expensive morph available without regards to sound breeding practices.

for all those who have been breeding leopard geckos for a while (5 years or more) would you say that you are seeing a greater number of deformities (either in your stock or the leo population in general) or am I just imagining this.

Steve

 

[Linda Crawford]

Well. I think lots of TLC is accurate, but I can't take credit for uncurling the tail.

Making a long story short...as far as I can recall, she did indeed have an UG parent, But I can't say for sure if it was one or both. She originally came to me at 2g, and 4wks old. She refused to eat. Why I take these challenges on is beyond me. L'Oreal is my friend.

Here she is not too long after arrival, and re-hydrated~that's an early ulcer starting to form on her left hip, the bony angle of the pelvis was pushing through the skin..

The ulcerations continued to develop

Two weeks older, ulcers resolved, eating mostly independently

And, just before she went home in October, 8wks later ~

I didn't "fix" the tail...she simply managed to make it through crisis and put on weight. Interestingly, I have this girl's Xray. The pelvis is actually rotated at an angle. I will make a mental note to photo it tomorrow and post if anyone wants to see it.

 

[StinaUIUC]

If genetics is the case...than the parents should probably be retired from breeding as well...b/c they will likely produce more with the trait, and any other offspring could be carrying it.

 

[Herpcam]

Time for me to rant...

DO NOT BREED THIS ONE. As mentioned before, IF it is genetic, you can't ethically introduce (or continue to spread) this deformity into the gene pool. Think about tail kinks in the patternless morph. They're an undesirable trait that has run wild due to the greed of a few in the initial period of breeding them. It's hard to say if there are ANY clean, non-kinked tail-gene-carrying patternless geckos out there. Now, don't get me wrong, there are some that are probably free of it, but you can't really be positive any more because someone thought 'Well, it may not be genetic' and 'I'll just try to breed it to see how the babies come out'. As I think was already mentioned, you probably wouldn't even know if it was genetic until the gene were passed for 2 generations, if then.

Cute? Give me a break. It's not a pig or a Shiba, Akita or any other animal w/a curled tail.

Think about the future of the morph(s). Outcross your geckos instead of trying to have 'Pure' UG or Herptopia or HISS or ANY other line out there. Kelli outcrosses, I try to as well as many others out there. It's just smart for the future of this hobby. Apparently not everyone thinks this way. Not that everyone is malicious, it's just not put out there as often for new hobbyists to consider. AND, it's not offered up as sound advice by even the most experienced breeders when they sell a breeding 'pair' of reptiles, for greed or whatever reason. I'm guilty of having bred pairs from the same breeder in the past (due to ignorance on my part), but won't let it happen again. At the very least, when purchasing a 1.1 pair from anyone, find out the background. If they share the same parent(s), consider what this could mean somewhere down the road. With (seemingly) a billion 'breeders' out there, it should be pretty easy to diversify your stock, and probably save a little money in the process.

Disclaimer: this was not intended to finger-point, lay blame, or make accusations at anyone either explicitly or implicitly mentioned in this message. It's just how I see it.


oh yeah, for those interested, I should have three or four normal-to-high-yellow leopard geckos hatching over the next few weeks that (to my knowledge) don't have any special genes in them (circleback?). The parents are just nice, healthy leos that have been in my possession since 1999. Actually, I don't even know if I'll sell these babies, but I'm trying to prove my theory that this girl and possibly the male are gene-carriers for circle back. Sure, it's not a great, gee-whiz morph, and you can't really even tell they were circle backs when they grow up, but I've had this theory for a few years and am just getting to prove it (or disprove it) this year. I'll post the prliminary results (a clutch) in a few days after they hatch. The gist of my very unscientific project is, I remember hatching most, if not all, circlebacks from this pair back in 1999, and wanted to see if they do it again. One of their offspring is said to have also produced a majority circleback, as well.

 

[Linda Crawford]

DO NOT BREED THIS ONE.

I am assuming you are advising Sunset Geckos on the initial post I never had any intention of breeding the leo pictured above, and she has returned home to her original owner. No idea what happened to her after that.

 

[Herpcam]

I am assuming you are advising Sunset Geckos on the initial post I never had any intention of breeding the leo pictured above, and she has returned home to her original owner. No idea what happened to her after that.

Absolutely, Linda. And, I hope I didn't sound too harsh to anyone. I just wanted to reinforce what others have said, since Eric was coming here asking for advice and opinions. That's awesome you have her Xray. I don't know you, but I am sure that since you know what's going on inside that little one, you wouldn't breed her. It's unfortunate that most of us don't have the time, space, or facilities to take care of all of these 'different' ones. It would be nice, so you can be sure noone breeds them and they life a full life, but it's simply not possible most of the time. We have one that has an 'accordion' tail that my wife fell in love with when it hatched, and it has hip problems like yours. She'll never breed and she'll stay with us as long as possible. I'll try to post a pic later. She's a super hypo tangerine (mom was an UG gecko), but I'd like to think it wasn't genetic since none of the others hatched like her. However, after Kelli's post, I don't know.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

ummm...

for all those who have been breeding leopard geckos for a while (5 years or more) would you say that you are seeing a greater number of deformities (either in your stock or the leo population in general) or am I just imagining this.

I don't think it is your imagination at all. And, I agree with Rob, Kelli, and the rest of the folks who advised not to allow this gecko to breed if there is even a remote chance of of this deformity being genetic, and if you are seeing this (or similar) defects from the same parent(s), then they should also be retired.

 

[saltwaterreptiles]

I would be very interested in seeing the hatchlings that larger outfits like Urban or say Ron Tremper produce that they DON'T publicize. On what scale would we see this type, and other types, of deformities happening in these larger populations with generations of inbreeding behind them.

It kind of scary to think when you buy a gecko from TUG or RT that you could be bringing home a ticking bomb in the guise of a spectacular gecko....

 

[1derfool]

I'm beginning to wonder how many leos with regrown tails are really the end result of 'fixing' a tail defect. It never occurred to me until someone mentioned chopping off a deformed tail so he could cover up the problem. His way of thinking was that regrown tails are rarely pretty, if it grows back crooked or odd, the new owner wouldn't suspect a thing and he wouldn't be 'stuck with a lemon'. I also happen to know this person isn't very reputable, one of many crooked breeders, maybe he's the only one to take such drastic measures.... but what if... there are others that think the same way? He's a follower, probably never had a unique thought, it wouldn't surprise me if he got that idea from someone else.

When you get right down to it, would you refuse to buy a perfectly good, healthy looking leo just because the tail is regenerated? Probably not, it's just cosmetic. If the bloodline is highly desirable, and the price was reduced because of the tail, it would be one heck of a good way to get the genes into your collection and save some money at the same time. Maybe it's coincidence, but seems to me I've seen a somewhat disproportionate number of leos that look like a certain easily recognizable "brand" and just happen to have regrown tails.