Delta Airlines, dead snake, and me

[serpentinedreams]

I couldnt quiet decide where this thread would be best so feel free to do with it as you will.

I have had a handful of problems in the past with delta, as well as quiet a few very pleasurable experiances. Today I recieved word that an animal I had shipped died in transit. This is the first animal we have lost during transit and I am very sad to hear of his death. Note, we have recieved dead snakes from delta before, as well as damaged equipment.

The specifics on this shipment:

Yesterday we delivered several packages to Delta for dash shipments to our customers. We used insulated boxes used for carrying tropical fish. The DOA was a previously very healthy 10' male burmese python , who had been a very well cared member of our collection. Another female burm was also shipped with him and arrived in good condition. Both animals were bagged and placed at the bottom of the insulated container. Another smaller animal (Chondro) made the trip packed ontop of the two burmese pythons, and newspaper was used to fill the space and as a damping material. I was givin a schedual of flights that the animals would be fallowing in route from SEA to PIT, (Seattle to Pittsburg) Heres where everything went wrong.

After contacting our customer with the flight info we spent a nice night with family in Tacoma, I was awoke by my cell phone at around 7:00 am and learned that our customer had went to the airport to recieve his package only the flight came in but the snakes did not. After doing some reserch and tracking the package online I had learned that for some reason it had been removed from the schedualed flight and was soon after reasigned. It was in transit to ATL (Atlanta). I advised the customer to ask for a updated flight schedual so he would know when the package would be arriving in PIT.

It wasnt untill we finaly arrived at home tonight that I was notified of the death. Apperantly delta had missed a total of 4 outgoing flights between yesterday and today delaying the package.

I am having quiet a bit of trouble sleeping on this so I thought I may come to you all for guidence. I am conflicted by the death of our animal and as a customer myself I feel that Delta was responcible, as well my customer feels they are in the wrong here after several trips to the airport to recieve his package. However being a hobbiest on the other side of the counter a few times myself and getting stuck with the corpse of a would be pet, I feel obligated to right the situation for my customer, but we still do not know how this animal died.

The package was insured for $750 wich is the max. allowed by delta. Our customer has reported the death to Delta, and filed the paperwork, my only question is wether we will be pulling teeth to recieve any reimbursment for the casualty???

I would like to see my customer reimbursed for the value of the animal either way. Im just currious what would you do if you were me?


My gaurantee was written to protect us incase somthing strange like this should happen, the fallowing is taken directly off of our website...

Guarantee:

Due to the nature of my bussiness, there are possibilities for problems to arise. However, I will stand behind my animals 100%, and will always do my best to make you a satisfied customer. I cannot be responcible for animals that are no longer in my care. (after 24 hrs) The gaurantee is simple-healthy live animal in your hands or else I'll replace or refund the value of said animal.

In other words, all animals are guaranteed to arrive alive and in good condition (as originally represented). If there are problems with your overnight shipment, you must contact me directly (within 24 hours). There is no gaurantee on animals shipped in weather below 40~F or above 85~F (Check your weather). We are not responsible for damages incured during shipping, due to carrier error or delays.

- Shaun DeBord

 

[JMelissaMc]

Shaun,

So tragic! And I will bet that no one will give a darn at Delta.

I do not know what Delta guarantees on their animals. I know that they willingly accept them, but are they going to pay you for the value? You said that it is insured for $750.00, but did they know that it was snake that you were insuring. Several years ago there was a story on airlines and animals. They are just considered property so if they killed your dog during the flight, the most that you would get is $50.00. I hope that has changed.

I read your terms where you clearly stated that you are not responsible for airline delays. Of couse you are not reponsible, and neither was the buyer, it was no ones fault but Delta's. But I do believe that your terms are unfair in the first place and the buyer only agreed to those terms because he badly wanted the snakes and was sure that it was just a slim chance that this would ever happen. If he thought that this was really a possiblity, he never would have agreed to this arrangement, in fact no one would and you would never have any shipping business. But unfortunately, these things do happen and it is in my opinion, that the loss should be divided 50/50 after you receive any reimbursement from Delta.

I am really sorry about this situation, you expect Delta Dash to be much safer than the other mail deliverers.

 

[snakeman1313]

The gaurantee is simple-healthy live animal in your hands or else I'll replace or refund the value of said animal.


- Shaun DeBord

I once had a similar problem with Delta shipping. Luckily the animal did arrive alive and healthy but not before 4 trips to the airport. What Delta had told me was that there was probably some mail that got put on ahead of her. I responded with " mail is more important to you (Delta) than a live animal?" and the answer I got is what disturbed me most, a simple "Yes...yes it is". From that day forward I vowed to never use delta again for shipping. I think in your case due to the line in your gaurantee above you are responsiable for reinbursmient to your customer and then I would go after Delta for an insurance claim. This however I feel is secondary to the animal that had the unfortunate fate of being subjected to Deltas priorities or lack there of. Its just a shame that they are the best legal option for shipping live snakes.

 

[jefjen]

wow

Shaun,
we also have been dealing with Delta for a while now, and have had good shipments,,and bad..

See,, Atlanta is where all the animal shipments have to go.. For some reason, whether the animal is on the way to Atl.,, or in Atl, somehow the shipments always seem to get messed up in or going to Atl..
After they leave Atl.,, everything seems to be OK..
Delta is VERY UN-ORGANIZED..
As far as your animal goes,, you sent it Dash!!!
If it took LONGER THAN 24 HOURS to reach it's destination, then Delta is responsible..
Hell, we are still waiting to see if Delta will honor a 750.00 claim.. It took 3 days for a shipment to arrive to us, and the majority of the animals were DOA!!!
Delta says it takes 8-10 weeks after they recieve the claim to give you their decision.. Well, it has been about 13 weeks now, and all we have recieved is a fax stating that the investigation is taking longer than usual, and they will be in touch..
My advice,, file the claim.. They will most likely deny it, AND THEN,, YOU FILE AN APPEAL.. That appeal will usually get your claim,, AS LONG AS DELTA WAS IN THE WRONG,,(e.g;..longer than 24 hours on DASH shipments)..
That is their(Delta) rules.. If they are in the wrong,, they usually do make it right..
If that shipment reached it's destination within 24 hours, then you are pretty much screwed..If not,, you will most likely get your claim,, it will just take forever and a Day...
Sorry to hear about the loss..
I wonder what caused the 1 snake to die..
If something went wrong, you would expect the GTP to die first before a 10 foot Burm, or all 3 would be dead..
I wonder if he just freaked out, and that caused him to die..
Good Luck..
They can be a pain..
Jeff

 

[Uffern]

Regardless of what your fine print is, I would refund the cost of the snake to the buyer if I were you. I've learned from my own experiences and from a lot of people here that taking a little hit now to ensure that the customer is taken care of when things go wrong will pay off in spades later on down the road. I know that would put you out a snake and the money, but the customer will realize this too, and will remember that if something does go wrong, you will do all you can to make sure they are satisfied.
Good luck with Delta.

 

[serpentinedreams]

Thanks everyone

The package was droped of at delta cargo in Seattle at around 2 pm, pasific time. It arrived at the final destination at around 7 pm eastern time. I belive even with the time diffrence that would just be slightly more than 24 hrs. I do hope that they will reimburse the cost of the animal to my customer. As he has filed a claim to them, I belive we may wait it out before offering a refund.

BTW I am a verrified shipper with delta and the packages were cleared as live harmless reptiles/pythons. I do also find it odd that the adult male died in transit, while the female and chondro arrived without incident and seem to be doing well at that....

We will review our terms however as you know animals can be hard to "replace" I wrote the stipulation to our terms to deny any responsibility for carrier problems. It seems to be a clear case of carrier problems but not exactly what I had in mind when we wrote the stipulation, and I will do whatever is needed in this case to resolve the issue. The way I see it my name is on the line whenever a problem occures wether it is my fault or not.

Anyhow any additional feedback or experiances with deltas insurance policy will be appreciated. As my customer filed a claim in his name.

Hopefuly Delta will resolve this problem, however if not I still stand behind my animal and will make sure the customer is satisfied with the final settlement. Thank you everyone for your imput.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Shaun.... I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but, I don't think that Delta will assume ANY responsibility here, for one reason.... two of the snakes made it there alive and in good health!!.... They will tell you that there must have been something wrong with the Burm BEFORE you shipped it.... had ALL THREE of the snakes died, that would be a different scenario, but not here....

Sorry, buddy....

Neil

 

[hemingway155]

re: Delta Airlines

Not trying to cause trouble, or even asserting an opinion about to whom responsibility should be assigned in this instance, but this scenario presents an interesting question to me, as a person who has purchased animals shipped delta and will probably have to do so again. The basic issue that seems missing in this equation is causality. The seller's terms explicitly deny responsibility for DOA from carrier delays, but I have yet to see an argument for how Delta managed to kill one big burmese and not the other or the chondro. So really, I guess my question is how those issues get hashed out in deciding about a refund. Undoubtedly Delta was in the wrong here, but I'm just not clear whether that wrong is sufficient to void the guarantee in the terms. Truly a tragic situation, and both parties have my sympathy.

Kris

 

[serpentinedreams]

damn it neil

As much as I hate hearing badnews I suppose if I had to I would choose you to tell me. Afterall wernt you the one who told me that the albino boa had died in transit? LOL you are just one sick b_____d, makes me wonder if you dont actualy prefer to be the one to confront people with "bad news"... I just hope that you will followup with, hahaha Just joking, they will send you a check tommarow, and reimburse you for mental stress... Please??? lol

Also as far as I know there is no sensible reason for the death of this animal except for stress.. If the animal had arrived on time would it be alive??? I belive it would but without a actual cause of death I will never know....Both burmese pythons were somewhere around 25lbs and 10' it dosnt seem logical to me that the weight of one could have killed the other. However I am open to suggestions on how this may have occured. The python was in perfect health to my knowledge and was a part of my personal collection, for some time. Infact he is/was excpected to be a father this year...

Well as I have stated before I have no problem replacing the value of the animal one way or another, but I feel it would be in our best intrests to wait for Deltas decision on the matter. After all , the buyer has filed a claim with them. So if delta does decide to refund a portion of the value of that animal to them, is it fair to expect me to cover the full amount? I am expecting that they will atleast refund the cargo charges as they did not live up to there own terms by having the package at destination within 24 hrs...

I personaly feel that there will likly be a dispute with delta for the bill, and will speak to my customer shortly to try to reach an agreement. Do you think that it is fair for both parties to wait for a decsion from delta or should I just make an offer for refund/ replacment immediatly???

Thanks for your comments,

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Shaun.... your statement....

....As much as I hate hearing badnews I suppose if I had to I would choose you to tell me. Afterall wernt you the one who told me that the albino boa had died in transit? LOL you are just one sick b_____d, makes me wonder if you dont actualy prefer to be the one to confront people with "bad news"... I just hope that you will followup with, hahaha Just joking, they will send you a check tommarow, and reimburse you for mental stress... Please??? lol....

Is absolutely correct.... It WAS me who told you that....

Some background.... Sometimes, if I speak to a person about buying one of their expensive animals, and we "hit it off" on the phone (as Shaun and I DID).... when the expensive animal arrives at my house, I write them an email that says....

...."I just received the animal, and IT WAS DEAD!!.... Ya know, I would pay MONEY to see the look on your face right now!.... Take a Midol, relax.... it's FINE AND HEALTHY!!.... I'm such a sick puppy, huh??"....

You should see some of the return emails I get after those.... I laugh my XXX off!!.... Now, remember, it's only the people that I have very good conversations with.... nobody else....

Shaun.... As was HAMMERED into me a while ago because of one of the Upstate threads.... You should probably work something out with your customer NOW, and then when (and if) Delta comes through with a settlement, hopefully your customer will rebate those monies back to you.... he did nothing wrong.... YOU probably did nothing wrong, but your customer shouldn't have to pay for it in any way.... he was expecting a guaranteed LIVE and healthy animal and he didn't get it.... you should probably reimburse him NOW for that one animal and get it reimbursed to you on the back end.... just my opinion....

Neil

 

[Brian Oakley]

I ahte to see these things happen, but I would have to agre with Neil (imagine that! LOL).
You shipped three (3) snakes, two being the same type and the other being a chondro. One of the Burms dies and the other Burm and the chondro live. I would expect this of the Chondro before I would the Burm.
Anyway, there has to be mroe to this than what we know, everyone involved.
I too have had shipments (Delta Dash) arrive late.....but NEVER with any problems with the snakes.

If I were a betting man, I would think that something (not saying anything too bad) was wrong with the one that died.

We have no mention of a disfigured box that would show mishandling on their part. I was waiting to hear something about that as it could be an explination to why one died. Even if the box was mishandled and smashed (so to speak), one would think that the Chondro (being much smaller and fragile in a way) would suffer the damage before the burms.

I am very sorry to hear of the loss, but I agree with Neil. I do not think Delta will help in this case. 66% of the product arrived and was healthy. This means the temps were good, the box/animals were not damaged by handling. SOmething else caused this snake to die besides a simple delay in shipping. People ship next day (FedEx, UPS, etc.) and even with that there really are few deaths in shipping. Good packaging (which I DO BELIEVE you had good packaging) will outweigh and benefit any delays that a shipment might have.

 

[Darin Chappell]

While I see nothing at all unethical in your terms of service, I also understand that the well-placed refund of a purchase price, even when it is not something for which you are technically responsible, is often times worth far more than whatever benefit you could gain from keeping the money from the initial sale.

I would do my best to make the customer happy, and worry about Delta if/when they ever DO give any money back. Sorry about all of this!

 

[serpentinedreams]

Thanks guys...

I have spoken to the customer, we have reached a agreement on this matter. I did offer to refund/replace the animal immediatly however the buyer does belive that he will be compinsated either way, and has declined my offer. Untill there is a factual bad guy report on me I would only ask that the BOI members do give me the benifit of the doubt regaurding the apperant health of the animal before shipping. It does seem to be very strange even to me that he perrished where the chondro did not but these are simply the facts.

Prehapse somthing that I didnt notice? Prehapse he simply did not adjust to the change in pressure at altitude, Prehapse the female crushed him durring turbulance? I honestly cannot say without an autopsy, nothing more is known to me about the circumstances surrounding the animals death than is too you. I was not there to open the package, I do know for a fact that if I had not have shipped the animal it would still be with us today... I will say that I regret the animals loss more than the loss of a few hundred $. It was a member of our personal collection and was only sold after careful examination of our goals as a company. We simply decided to stop breeding green burmse pythons, and to focus our collection around reticulated pythons. You may have noticed several of our breeding projects being offered recently... I will say that the customer is satisfied with the other animals, and we are still on very good terms even after this incident.

While im thinking of it, customer and buyer have been used losely in this thread when in actuality it was a TRADE gone bad. I do feel horrible for both the snake and the other party involved. If I was holding his cash I would send back the value of the animal, however I am not, and I do not see a simple way to divide the 2 animals I recieved in trade fairly. I am willing to trade him back but would rather take the loss and complete the trade as best we can. In the end whatever he decieds will be fine, I am only so lucky as to find as understanding of a hobbiest as him. Either way the situation has been resolved at least for now, and I am sure we will come to a final settlement soon.

-Thanks for your help on this issue, Shaun D

 

[chad]

I just wanted to let everyone know that Shaun and I have come to an agreement on this situation. He offered me another snake in return and I said I would wait to see what if any thing Delta will do and then at that time go from there. If they do nothing I will take him up on his offer and he is aware of that. As Shaun and I have spoken 3 times since this whole thing happened. I have stated to Shaun what I thought might have happened. I have no bad feelings for Shaun and will continue to keep in contact with him.

Chad Umbaugh

 

[jim0602]

i had a problem winter 2002 with delta.my package was lost for 2 days.when it arrived every thing was dead..it took 6 1/2 months of nearly daily calling to get something done but it finaly did happen.i got all but $9.00 back on an $1100.00 order.i never figured out what the 9 bux was for but felt fortuinate to get back what i did.my supplier had already told me not there fault so nothing would be done by them.delta had told me early on in the there investigation that they were not at fault.so regardless of what they say keep on it.

jim burns

 

[snakebstr]

I have delt with delta for a long time with NO deaths to any of my shipments. However they are very screwed up like Jeff said until you hit Atlanta. In my opinion on of the bigger burms had to have squashed the other, or the box was put on something hot. That would be the only reason that the snake on the bottom would be DEAD and the other 2 were fine, Well if the shippment would have been delayed any longer they all would have been dead due to the first one being dead. As far as I know Delta will refund the amount of the ONE snake since the package was insured. I have had friends that filed claims on packages that arrived LATE and gotten the shipping refunded. Good luck on getting everything solved. Thanks DAVID

 

[sputnik]

OVERNIGHT

I guess, no matter what service you use, none are perfect and there are risks.

Doesn't help what happened.

It just makes sending any reptile overnight, a worry!

 

[snakebstr]

Well, I always worrie about all my shipments coming IN or going OUT because I know the risks with any SHIPPING company, they are just human and if it can happen it usually will, just when you least expect it. I am always happy to here from the person I sent the animals to tell me he got them OK. You take a risk anytime you send through any carrier!!!!! We just gotta do the best we can to insure if something does happen THAT WE HAVE PACKED THEM WELL ENOUGH TO HANDLE THE PROBLEM...but sometimes the problem is to great and the animal or animals are lost as in this case, but with insurance i think delta will pay a portion of the inurance value since some of the snakes made it and one did not. see ya DAVID

 

[ZooCon]

Hi,
I'm really sorry about your loss. We ship by airfreight regularly as it is the only way for us to ship.

From what i have read, you seem to have put your snakes into a fish box and then used some newspaper to fill in the void so they won't move around during shipping. If its a 10' snake, this method really isn't the best way to do it. At 10' its going to be heavy, if the box is tipped on its side (doesn't matter what you wrote on the box, those guys will still handle it without care), then the snakes inside are going to be moving around in and might get ontop of each other. If they were in the snake bag then they would probably be alright because the smaller snake could always crawl back to the top, but in seperate bags this isn't possible.

I suspect that the snake that died got stuck under the other one and asphyxiated (sp?).

Below are some photos of how we pack animals. We try to follow IATA guidelines as closely as possible (unless its one of their stupid guidelines), hope it would help you with packing. Please bear in mind what IATA states are only guidelines and they allow for variations as long as you follow the general theme.

The Sealed box after inspection by the airline staff.

Empty Box with cardboard seperators to keep turtles apart during shipping.

Bottom Layer filled with Geoemyda spengleri and Sacalia bealei

Middle layer packed with turtles and tarantulas in soap boxes.

Top layer, snakes in bags and cheating a bit on the turtles because there wasn't enough space.

THe idea is to stop the animals from falling around even if the box should tip on its side, or even flip upside down.

Hope this helps.

 

[chad]

UPDATE

To everyone following this, As of today 7-21-04 I recieved a full refund from Delta Airlines.