Bad Guy Dillon and Rick Wascher, www.safedartfrogs.com

[Scott Richardson]

Ed,
I agree with that 100%. That is why I said "in the context they put it". I don't feel it was very responsible of them. It was a marketing gimmick that may come back to bite them in the butt.

All frogs have peptides to some extent. And you run the risk of getting sick handling. Just like handling a reptile poses the same risk. Not same sickness, yet same risks of getting sick. Hell, petting a dog with feces stuck in their fur poses a risk of sickness.

A diligent hand washing routine is a must with an animal

 

[Chris Kennard]

You know full well it goes far beyond a difference of opinion. Personal attacks and insults are being made.

You're right, nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. Neither are we forcing anyone not to buy anything.

We're simply providing information so that buyers can make a responsible decision. You're free to disagree and I and content to let the new readers who are not familiar with the subject read and decide for themselves.

According to the post on DB inciting people to harass the Waschers' at shows they attend, you are forcing people not to buy from them. As long as you keep using the word "we", you are just as guilty. You conveniently said that you only "liked" that post because of one little aspect which could also be construed as harassment. Yet you did not denounce that post at all. Guess you didn't want to ruffle "we's" feathers. Also, Rick's son has decided for himself yet judging from your posts here, he is not free to disagree. You somehow feel it is your duty to reach out to him and change his mind. It is not your duty or your business to interfere with that family.

 

[Dendro Dave]

According to the post on DB inciting people to harass the Waschers' at shows they attend, you are forcing people not to buy from them. As long as you keep using the word "we", you are just as guilty. You conveniently said that you only "liked" that post because of one little aspect which could also be construed as harassment. Yet you did not denounce that post at all. Guess you didn't want to ruffle "we's" feathers. Also, Rick's son has decided for himself yet judging from your posts here, he is not free to disagree. You somehow feel it is your duty to reach out to him and change his mind. It is not your duty or your business to interfere with that family.

I wouldn't encourage anyone to "harass" them, but unless an individual got really out of hand, I don't think it is harassment asking a vendor why we should buy from them when they lied about this or that? ...or when they make these misleading statements? ...can't/won't back up sensationalistic claims with evidence/proof? ...etc..etc...

If you are in the frog hobby, and love the frog hobby and don't want a business that operates in this manner in your hobby, I think there is a duty to speak up for yourself and your hobby. Also Dillon and his siblings are involved in the business and anyone conducting business in our hobby and assualting new people with bad info/pseudoscience, misleading claims and/or outright lies is our business.

Now if you're strictly a snake guy with no interest in ever owning darts it may be over stepping to play 20 hard questions with Rick/Dillion at show, but other wise...

 

[Chris Kennard]

I wouldn't encourage anyone to "harass" them, but unless an individual got really out of hand, I don't think it is harassment asking a vendor why we should buy from them when they lied about this or that? ...or when they make these misleading statements? ...can't/won't back up sensationalistic claims with evidence/proof? ...etc..etc...

If you are in the frog hobby, and love the frog hobby and don't want a business that operates in this manner in your hobby, I think there is a duty to speak up for yourself and your hobby. Also Dillon and his siblings are involved in the business and anyone conducting business in our hobby and assualting new people with bad info/pseudoscience, misleading claims and/or outright lies is our business.

Now if you're strictly a snake guy with no interest in ever owning darts it may be over stepping to play 20 hard questions with Rick/Dillion at show, but other wise...

Thought I was addressing Doug. I will address you all as "we". To incite people to "stand at their table and steer away all interested persons" and "pepper them with questions" while having no intention of having any sort of business transaction, is harassment. AS FAR AS i'm concerned, anyone and everyone who didn't speak out against that post was all for it. That would be "WE"! Lastly, the ONLY people doing any assaulting is your radical little pseudo country club.

 

[Chris Kennard]

I wouldn't encourage anyone to "harass" them, but unless an individual got really out of hand, I don't think it is harassment asking a vendor why we should buy from them when they lied about this or that? ...or when they make these misleading statements? ...can't/won't back up sensationalistic claims with evidence/proof? ...etc..etc...

If you are in the frog hobby, and love the frog hobby and don't want a business that operates in this manner in your hobby, I think there is a duty to speak up for yourself and your hobby. Also Dillon and his siblings are involved in the business and anyone conducting business in our hobby and assualting new people with bad info/pseudoscience, misleading claims and/or outright lies is our business.

Now if you're strictly a snake guy with no interest in ever owning darts it may be over stepping to play 20 hard questions with Rick/Dillion at show, but other wise...

By the way, this isn't about me being a snake guy or anything else. This is a Business Forum for people to share their personal experience pertaining to their transactions, good or bad. You guys keep saying this discussion doesn't belong here, yet you go on and on and on with your off topic blathering while never having had a transaction with the Waschers' and have not in any way been personally affected by them.

 

[Dendro Dave]

Thought I was addressing Doug. I will address you all as "we". To incite people to "stand at their table and steer away all interested persons" and "pepper them with questions" while having no intention of having any sort of business transaction, is harassment. AS FAR AS i'm concerned, anyone and everyone who didn't speak out against that post was all for it. That would be "WE"! Lastly, the ONLY people doing any assaulting is your radical little pseudo country club.

I have no desire to get into a personal conflict with any member here, but I'm a veteran of many forums and I wasn't trying to answer for Doug. I was basically just making general comments related to your comments. I apologize if that wasn't clear, or if I'm not allowed here to comment on a post not specifically targeted at me by name.


Anyways (If I may?)...
I personally don't think "standing there trying to steer people away from their table", is valid/acceptable tactic (Though I sympathize with the sentiment). Now an interested party asking the vendor questions within ear shot of others? ...Sure.

Chris, I'm curious...
What are your thoughts on DFW's/Usdartwhatevez bold face lie to the community about not mixing species or varieties? ...and also on the misleading doubletalk/marketing practices? ...skewed definitions and/or attempting to redefine entire concepts for us to suit their financial agenda? ...Claiming to be experts on things like shipping, when they'd had pretty minimal experience at it compared to other vendors? ......pseudoscience? ... questionable husbandry advice "like no need to quarantine their frogs"? ...Touting how much they respect and revere other breeders and/or the frogs from those breeders while repeatedly calling into question the health/quality and husbandry of those animals from those other breeders? ...Using pics/info from other sources and butchering the work of actual scientist with there complete lack of understanding? ...and general tendency to spew BS in every conceivable way possible? ..etc...etc...?

 

[Dendro Dave]

Admittedly we don't yet have an instance where they've just totally ripped a buyer off by selling really sick animals, or not actually sending them animals, or something like stealing supplies/money/livestock from other vendors or hobbyists, but all that other stuff in my above post is pretty well documented on DB... Is that really not enough to consider them "a bad guy" vendor???

 

[hhmoore]

To clarify a few points:
Yes, this is a business forum - it would be appreciated it people could conduct themselves in a professional, businesslike manner.
While many of the threads do pertain to actual transactions; there is no stipulation which REQUIRES a transaction prior to posting.
I tend to agree that, when some of the most active participants agree this thread shouldn't be in this particular forum, it seems unusual that we're up to nearly 5 full pages...then again, with an active antagonist going post for post with another member, it isn't all that surprising.

(moderator hat removed)
There has been some reasonable explanation of why some of the dart frog community is displeased with DFW, USDARTFROG, SAFEdartfrog, or whatever other name those people are using, some reasonable rebuttal, an unfortunate amount of antogonism, and plenty of blah, blah, blah. At this point, can any participant justify continuing this thread; vs letting it stand & allowing potentially interested parties decide for themselves? Failing that, it would be nice to hear from some people that actually did complete a transaction.

 

[laterob]

Personally, I think that if you're going to call someone a bad guy here, the case should be made here.

 

[Chris Kennard]

I have no desire to get into a personal conflict with any member here, but I'm a veteran of many forums and I wasn't trying to answer for Doug. I was basically just making general comments related to your comments. I apologize if that wasn't clear, or if I'm not allowed here to comment on a post not specifically targeted at me by name.


Anyways (If I may?)...
I personally don't think "standing there trying to steer people away from their table", is valid/acceptable tactic (Though I sympathize with the sentiment). Now an interested party asking the vendor questions within ear shot of others? ...Sure.

Chris, I'm curious...
What are your thoughts on DFW's/Usdartwhatevez bold face lie to the community about not mixing species or varieties? ...and also on the misleading doubletalk/marketing practices? ...skewed definitions and/or attempting to redefine entire concepts for us to suit their financial agenda? ...Claiming to be experts on things like shipping, when they'd had pretty minimal experience at it compared to other vendors? ......pseudoscience? ... questionable husbandry advice "like no need to quarantine their frogs"? ...Touting how much they respect and revere other breeders and/or the frogs from those breeders while repeatedly calling into question the health/quality and husbandry of those animals from those other breeders? ...Using pics/info from other sources and butchering the work of actual scientist with there complete lack of understanding? ...and general tendency to spew BS in every conceivable way possible? ..etc...etc...?

My "thoughts" on your off topic questions will not be answered here on the BOI. What don't you get about that? Start a thread in the proper forum and I will gladly participate.

 

[hhmoore]

My "thoughts" on your off topic questions will not be answered here on the BOI. What don't you get about that? Start a thread in the proper forum and I will gladly participate.

If the questions are posed about this (or any) company specifically; this would have to be the place. A more "generic" discussion on the practice of interbreeding dart frog species, shipping methods, information exchange, etc would be permissible in the other discussion areas. Once underway, a casual mention of a particular businesses practices is acceptable; but that business becoming the focal point is not.

 

[Dendro Dave]

To clarify a few points:
Yes, this is a business forum - it would be appreciated it people could conduct themselves in a professional, businesslike manner.
While many of the threads do pertain to actual transactions; there is no stipulation which REQUIRES a transaction prior to posting.
I tend to agree that, when some of the most active participants agree this thread shouldn't be in this particular forum, it seems unusual that we're up to nearly 5 full pages...then again, with an active antagonist going post for post with another member, it isn't all that surprising.


(moderator hat removed)
There has been some reasonable explanation of why some of the dart frog community is displeased with DFW, USDARTFROG, SAFEdartfrog, or whatever other name those people are using, some reasonable rebuttal, an unfortunate amount of antogonism, and plenty of blah, blah, blah. At this point, can any participant justify continuing this thread; vs letting it stand & allowing potentially interested parties decide for themselves? Failing that, it would be nice to hear from some people that actually did complete a transaction.

Just my personal opinion... I feel it should at least stand, however one reason I can think of to keep it open is DFW/whatever's tendency to delete/edit their website content almost faster then all the active participants in this debate can keep up with.

There is bound to be a new line of BS, pseudoscience, sleazy marketing tactic, or bold face lie within the next 24 hours if not next 5 minutes... if the pattern holds.

Personally, I think that if you're going to call someone a bad guy here, the case should be made here.

In general I agree with that sentiment, but we are somewhat handicapped on a practical level by the number of threads and posts within those threads on multiple forums. The result of the number/frequency of their website edits has generated a pretty steady stream of quotes/documentation of instances where they're they did one or more of the things we've complained about, and our arguments/evidence on why it was bad.

Basically that is crap load to port over here (But I sincerely do understand where you're coming from)

 

[Dendro Dave]

Oh another reason may be that it seems people have found about 14 domain names for them, and 12 business names in use now, or once in use... that are frog related. So the ability to update this thread to track the names they are using would be helpful in keeping people informed/up to date on who/how they are operating in the herp hobby.

 

[hhmoore]

I wasn't suggesting removing it or closing it - as neither will be done....I was merely wondering of the parties thus far involved could see fit to leave it alone at this point, barring some change or problem worth reporting. If they don't, they don't; as long as things stay civil and on topic, I don't care if this thread goes back and forth for another 6 pages. (By then, barring new developments, I'm sure the consensus will be that the subject has gotten old and the horse has been beaten to death).

 

[Dendro Dave]

Oh ok, sorry I misunderstood. I'm content to take step back for awhile unless something interesting happens :scatter:

 

[Lucille]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=469121

 

[Dendro Dave]

Are they being advertised as mutts or pure? If your angry because animals are being misrepresented, have at it. If you are angry because they are breeding mutts, you're in the wrong forum.

They are supposedly just crossing morphs... probably since even that caused a huge backlash. But I'd' take any claim of theirs with a grain of salt.

For instance:
They claim that because they aren't mixing species the frogs aren't hybrids. Here are the relevant parts of Webster's dictionary definition of "Hybrid"....

"1 :an offspring of two animals or plants of different races, breeds, varieties, species, or genera"

"The terms “mongrel” and “crossbreed” refer usually to animals or plants resulting from a cross between two races, breeds, strains, or varieties of the same species."

Note first medical definition is the same as tbe first general one

The also say "crossbreed" doesn't apply in their KS ads but note that word is a synonym of hybrid according to Websters, and mentioned in the encyclopedia entry that it is often used to describe crossing races, varieties, etc... (Like frog morphs).


They also tried to cover their old statement (Lie in my opinion) awhile back about not mixing species or varieties, as just a legit business tactic to protect themselves. I personally think specifically saying you won't do something and a few months posting frogs for sale that resulted from doing that thing you said you wouldn't do... is a lie. At best a lie of omission, but IMO even that is a stretch since they went so far as to actually claim they wouldn't do it, but "lie" is still right there in the phrasing.

These things are just a few of the (in my opinion) deceptive practices we have chronicled on DB. They seem to follow what is said about them closely on DB, as evidenced by the frequent website edits that address our comments, and their ads were reported to KS, so seems unlikely they are unaware of the issue. But as they once said (might be paraphrased slightly):

"Sometimes scientists are to weak to rest on something they cannot explain, so they make stuff up" ...Pretty much sums up their business philosophy from what I've seen.

So ya, those are not the "scientists" that I'd buy frogs from, or trust to usher us into a brave new world of designer frogs... or even pump gas/change the oil in my car.

 

[Dendro Dave]

Oops sorry, I thought In was addressing the most recent comments, but was apparently on the wrong page... my bad, but I stand by the points.