Do animals have souls?

[Cat_72]

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Stacy Mantle

I was talking with a coworker the other day and he informed me that animals do not have emotions.

This is just after he told me (the day that I put my dog of 17 yrs down) that animals do not have souls and therefore will never enjoy the concept of heaven.

Animals do have emotions and they also have souls, and I'll tell you how I know that.

In over twenty years of working with animals, I have never seen a kitten duct-tape a live human baby to a freeway.
I also have never seen a cat find enjoyment from setting a human on fire.

I've never gone hiking in the desert to find a child that dogs have left tied to a stake, without food and water, subjecting it to a painful death in the desert heat.

I have never seen a chicken force two unwilling humans to fight in a ring with razor blades attached to their feet while the chickens place bets on who will be the first to die.

I haven't seen a puppy place eight children in a gunnysack and drown them in a river.

Neither have I seen an eagle aim a shotgun at an unarmed human.

I have yet to see a bear kill a human simply to place a head on the wall of their cave.

And to this day, I have not seen a pigeon drive a car down the road and aim for humans who were walking around the park.

Let me tell you what I have seen.

I have seen my own cats sleep next to me so they may keep me a little warmer while I was ill.

I've seen my dogs play games with me just to force a smile to my face.

I have seen a cat rush into a burning home not once, not twice, but six times to save her kittens, nearly losing her own life in the process.

I have seen a ferret pull a frightened kitten out of a deep hole in the ground.

I have seen a coyote fetch another dog so that it may get the proper medical care that it needs.

I've seen a dog, who loves to jump on people, avoid jumping on me when I injured my back.

I've seen elephants cry.

I've seen monkeys scream in empathy when one of their own were injured.

I've seen puppies whine all night long when they were separated from their mothers.

I've seen a dog pull a child away from a fire.

These are only a few of the things that I've seen.

To list them all would take a lifetime, and I think you get my point.

As for the soul thing?

Well, it is my humble opinion that if you have emotions, any kind of emotions, then you have a soul.

Ironically, the (old)Pope of the Roman Catholic Church recently stated that he feels the same way.

Now, I can't prove that animals have souls. But then, I can't prove that you or I have one either.

And for all those people who firmly believe that animals don't have souls - well, I suppose if there really is a heaven, you'll probably have the job of cleaning out all the litter boxes.......

 

[Lucille]

Beautiful post!!!

I am not rightly sure zackly what a soul is, but I think I got one and so do my dogs.

Animals are wonderful and loving. I can see them in Heaven, but not in Hell. Perhaps there is the controversy: they seem not to have the capacity for evil: sure they have territory fights, and so on, but their actions are reasonable and explainable.

 

[South Dixie Dragons]

I tried to give ya more karma on that awesome post Cat, but this new system said I have to spread it around...

I love that post. Very well put....
I am sure if I make it to the big house in the sky, I KNOW I will run into 10 times more animals that I have known than people I have known....

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

I fully believe that animals have souls, I feel that all living things do!

 

[Cat_72]

I agree completely.

 

[darkbloodwyvern]

aww, that made my day...
I know a few people who know their deceased friends, human and otherwise are around still, and while it may never be scientifically provable, I think that all living things have some kind of animating force, and that at least the ones who do something good with their lives will still be around after they die. I have been sad many times fedding mice to my ball python, but i know they have lived good lives and he is not trying to ause them pain. He obviously enjoys the thrill of the hunt and eats better on live than frozen, but i know he would not kill a mouse just to watch it die the way some deranged and careless humans would. My cat was pretty horrible to some rats he caught in our house, but his instincts are to hunt and kill small animals and teach us humans (his kittens that are too dumb to catch things on their own) how to kill our own prey. So yeah, animals can cause pain, but it seems like only we primates like to torture others because we can, not because we need to eat.
i know insects and reptiles don't have the same kinds of brains we do, but i think in a sense many of them can have emotional attachments to their owners in a different way that pest like rats, cats, and dogs.

Honestly, if we humans were all that great, would the USA have to ask whether torture should be illegal??? It's not like anyone in pain is going to give you any reliable information and ikt just makes people who hate the country even more likely to be hateful. people just disgust me sometimes....
thanks cat, this reminds me even more why i love helping animals...

 

[Cat_72]

I'm glad you enjoyed it, Jessi.

I completely expect to be greeted in Heaven by many of the wonderful critters that I have loved and who have passed.

Have you ever read the "Rainbow Bridge for Rescuers" poem? I have read it many, many times, and still cannot read it again without getting teary.

 

[Blue Gorgon]

Gorgeous post!

I'll honestly never understand how anyone can live with and be around animals and not believe they have personalities, emotions, and souls. Isn't it obvious? All of my animals, regardless of species, have distinct personalities and are each unique beautiful creatures which I find impossible not to love. How anyone can just dismiss them as "things" is just... unfathomable to me.

 

[Mokele]

I'll honestly never understand how anyone can live with and be around animals and not believe they have personalities, emotions, and souls. Isn't it obvious?

I think something that's being overlooked here is that "animals" are a very diverse group. Remember, sponges are animals too, and I have a pretty hard time believing something has emotions and a personality when it doesn't even have nerve cells, let alone a nervous system. And let's not forget, 80% of living animal species are arthropods, a group for whom "brain" is a rather charitable term for 6 fused ganglia. Of the remaining animals, nematode worms compose the largest group, and let's just say they're even less likely to win at Jeopardy any time soon than the arthropods. Even within vertebrates, fish are the most diverse group, and they aren't exactly famous for having a lot going in in what amounts to a modest swelling at the anterior end of their nerve cord.

I'm not really trying to be infamatory or anything, I just get a bit miffed when people use "animal" in a sense that clearly either omits or trivializes the organisms which make up the vast bulk of animal species. Also, I don't like quickly characterizing animals as "like us" in various anthropomorphic traits, both because of the inaccuracy and because it implies that "like us" is somehow the best state. In reality, most animals are exceptional stupid, nearly totally instinct-driven, and lack emotions, personality, and thought. They don't waste useful calories on brains that likely wouldn't offer much advantage in their situation anyway, and what's the result? Arthropod species outnumber mammal species by over 250 to 1, with an even greater share of the world's biomass. Long after we're dead and gone, they'll be here, feasting on the decaying masses that were our emotional, personality-filled brains.

Seriously, think about your reptile. Here is an animal which has no concept of postnatal parental care, no concept of nurturing, an animal whose social interactions are mostly limited to fighting over territory and mating. The mind of a reptile is surely as alien to our primate perception as that of any science-fiction extraterrestrial.

To simply declare our animals as "like us" is sloppy reasoning and avoids the complex, messy issues of nervous complexity, ascertaining behavioral and congitive traits from an outside POV, and the relative importance of various mental traits of a species in ethical considerations involving it. None of these issues are simple, and most do not have satisfactory answers as of yet, but to simply gloss over them with "like us" proclamation accomplishes nothing but a false sense of certainty. IMHO, it's better to have a firm understanding of the problem while lacking a solution than to have a "band-aid" solution.

Personally, I do my best to treat my animals with the utmost compasion and care, and even extend unusually nice treatment to my plants, but I do my best to refrain from anthropomorphizing. I always keep in mind that their minds have been shaped by totally different selective pressures than those that lead to my big ape brain, and to expect the results to be even modestly similar is wishful thinking. Whether they have personalities or emotions doesn't actually matter to how I treat them; they're living things which deserve a measure of respect.

Oh, and as for how animals treat humans and each other, google "Parasitoid" and "Bot fly larva". Just don't do it if you're eating or have a weak stomach. Let's just say there are thousands of species of animals whose reproductive methods would give the creature from Alien nightmares.

Henry

 

[Blue Gorgon]

Wow, that's a lot of assumptions off my post! I didn't want to get too philisophical so yes, it did come off as very generalized.

I said that animals have personalities, emotions, and souls. I didn't say they were "like us". They speak a completely different language, have completely different needs, and while I may anthromorphize by talking to my reptiles etc I do realize that's for my benefit not theirs. But each one of my reptiles *does* have a distinct personality that's all their own. It's completely different from a human one but it's there.

I do happen to believe that all animals -even sponges- and even plants in fact have souls though. I believe that more simplified creatures souls are not as awake or aware as "higher" creatures. I even believe planets have souls. We're all part of the divine as far as I'm concerned. We're certainly not all on the same wave length, but I believe the energy is there and that we're all connected in that way. But again... I was trying not to get too philisophical.

Just wanted to explain that I'm not one of those people who really anthromorphizes my animals. I know I'm talking to myself when I talk to my snakes who can't hear me. I know that every species, genus, or family of animal I keep have completely different needs, wants, and desires.

But I also know my rabbits, cat, bird, and any number of "higher" animals that people more typically keep as pets do have obvious reactions and interactions with people and obvious emotional responses. And I don't understand how anyone who's kept or been around them doesn't get that. Or even acknowledge that they react to pain. That's basically all I was saying there. I don't get how that's possible.

Just for the record, I am neither a vegetarian nor would I EVER have anything to do with Peta. I'm a believer in nature and the circle of life too, and that our existance is entertwined with all KINDS of animals. Heck, if I believed it was wrong to eat anything with a soul I'd just starve to death. But I think the point of the original post was basically about people who don't treat animals with compassion and dismiss how strongly some of us feel about our pets rather than the spiritual state of the whole ecosystem. And that's all I was initially responding to.

Especially since I don't post much, and since my last post was about homosexuality I hoped to avoid my next one being about religion... That's just not the rep I want. Oh well!

 

[Mokele]

Wow, that's a lot of assumptions off my post! I didn't want to get too philisophical so yes, it did come off as very generalized.

I'm sorry, I should have made it more clear that it wasn't just your post, I was replying to, but to the more generalized position emerging from the thread, and the tendencies I often see in such threads. I certainly didn't mean to single your post out, nor to seem confrontational.

I do happen to believe that all animals -even sponges- and even plants in fact have souls though. I believe that more simplified creatures souls are not as awake or aware as "higher" creatures. I even believe planets have souls. We're all part of the divine as far as I'm concerned. We're certainly not all on the same wave length, but I believe the energy is there and that we're all connected in that way. But again... I was trying not to get too philisophical.

In the pantheist/Taoist "divine reality" sense in which all reality is an aspect of the divine, and true individuality is an illusion due to our limited perceptions, or in the animist sense in which individuality is still a valid concept, yet all animate and some inanimate forces (depending on tradition) have a 'spirit' of sorts?

...and this is you brain when your fiancee is an eastern theology student....

Especially since I don't post much, and since my last post was about homosexuality I hoped to avoid my next one being about religion... That's just not the rep I want. Oh well!

I know how that goes, and should just like to restate that my post wasn't directed at you specifically, but rather to a general attitude I often find in such threads.

Henry

 

[victoria]

Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.

When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to
Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and
play together. There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and
comfortable.

All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor; those who were hurt
or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of
days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing;
they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.

They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into
the distance. His bright eyes are intent; His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run
from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.

You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together
in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your
hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your
pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.

Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....

 

[Blue Gorgon]

I'm sorry, I should have made it more clear that it wasn't just your post, I was replying to, but to the more generalized position emerging from the thread, and the tendencies I often see in such threads. I certainly didn't mean to single your post out, nor to seem confrontational.

Oh, okay, I retract my defensive stance then!

In the pantheist/Taoist "divine reality" sense in which all reality is an aspect of the divine, and true individuality is an illusion due to our limited perceptions, or in the animist sense in which individuality is still a valid concept, yet all animate and some inanimate forces (depending on tradition) have a 'spirit' of sorts?

...and this is you brain when your fiancee is an eastern theology student....

Actually more of a bizarre mix of the two with some String (or "M") Theory being an extension of the Aum (or OM) concept thrown in there. I'm a strange eclectic sort of agnostic, no specific tradition just borrowing from whatever makes sense to me and adjusting my ideas as I learn more. Very cool about your fiancee! I have student envy! I'd love to take some real classes someday.

I know what you mean about threads often going in that direction, I just wanted to clarify my position there. No worries.

Namaste!
~Sheree

 

[victoria]

P.S.
Author unknown.
I also love this poem.
Victoria

 

[Blue Gorgon]

I love that poem too... I made an icon based off of it as well.

 

[Cat_72]

This is the "Rainbow Bridge for Rescuers" I mentioned.....I assumed most everyone had seen the original, but this one is somewhat different..


Unlike most days at Rainbow Bridge, this day dawned cold and gray, damp as a swamp and as dismal as could be imagined. All of the recent arrivals had no idea what to think, as they had never experienced a day like this before. But the animals who had been waiting for their beloved people knew exactly what was going on and started to gather at the pathway leading to The Bridge to watch.

It wasn't long before an elderly animal came into view, head hung low and tail dragging. The other animals, the ones who had been there for a while, knew what his story was right away, for they had seen this happen far too often.

He approached slowly, obviously in great emotional pain, but with no sign of injury or illness. Unlike all of the other animals waiting at The Bridge, this animal had not been restored to youth and made healthy and vigorous again. As he walked toward The Bridge, he watched all of the other animals watching him. He knew he was out of place here and the sooner he could cross over, the happier he would be. But, alas, as he approached The Bridge, his way was barred by the appearance of an Angel who apologized, but told him that he would not be able to pass. Only those animals who were with their people could pass over Rainbow Bridge. With no place else to turn to, the elderly animal turned towards the fields before The Bridge and saw a group of other animals like himself, also elderly and infirm. They weren't playing, but rather simply lying on the green grass, forlornly staring out at the pathway leading to The Bridge. And so, he took his place among them, watching the pathway and waiting.

One of the newest arrivals at The Bridge didn't understand what he had just witnessed and asked one of the animals that had been there for awhile to explain it to him.

"You see, that poor animal was a rescue. He was turned in to rescue just as you see him now, an older animal with his fur graying and his eyes clouding. He never made it out of rescue and passed on with only the love of his rescuer to comfort him as he left his earthly existence. Because he had no family to give his love to, he has no one to escort him across The Bridge."

The first animal thought about this for a minute and then asked, "So what will happen now?" As he was about to receive his answer, the clouds suddenly parted and the gloom lifted. Approaching The Bridge could be seen a single person and among the older animals, a whole group was suddenly bathed in a golden light and they were all young and healthy again, just as they were in the prime of life.

"Watch, and see.", said the second animal. A second group of animals from those waiting came to the pathway and bowed low as the person neared. At each bowed head, the person offered a pat on the head or a scratch behind the ears. The newly restored animals fell into line and followed him towards The Bridge. They all crossed The Bridge together.

"What happened?"

"That was a rescuer. The animals you saw bowing in respect were those who found new homes because of his work. They will cross when their new families arrive. Those you saw restored were those who never found homes. When a rescuer arrives, they are allowed to perform one, final act of rescue. They are allowed to escort those poor animals that they couldn't place on earth across The Rainbow Bridge."

"I think I like rescuers", said the first animal.

"So does GOD", was the reply.

 

[Wilomn]

I wonder if there is any such thing as a soul, per se.

Perhaps it is a limitation of language, of not knowing the words to express verbally the life force that exists, to some degree, in all living creatures.

Is there a pecking order? Is there a system, a beginning, an end, a path to get there, wherever there is?

Even that sponge has life. Is life itself qualification enough to have a soul? What about all those bacteria, more soup than animal, no brain at all, and yet, as living creatures, do they equal man? Or canine? Or feline or what have you.

I get stuck on definitions. IF I have a soul, does that make me christian? If I have a life force, does that make me a follower of an Eastern Philosophy? If I believe that I have a spirit, a force of life, does that make me some wanna be injun? I adhere to no one particular faith but I will say this, "if some of my canine pals are NOT wherever I wind up next, there is going to be someone answering some questions from a seriously irritated guy."

Something makes us what we are. I think some of us, and I mean humans mostly but not exclusively, have more of this something than others. Some of our companions and roomates on the skin of this planet also have more of that thing than their counterparts.

Chi or what have you, there IS a thing, a force, a something that I simply cannot identify but is easly recognizable that I, for one, am sure does not have only one appearence in only one vessel.

Honestly though, I don't worry about it too much. It's there and nothing I say or do will change it and so far as I have been able to discern, nothing short of taking the next step will allow me to know what I can only guess at now.

 

[victoria]

Different is good! I liked it. I copied it and sent it to my mom thanks for posting it.
Victoria

 

[The BoidSmith]

I'm not sure about you my friends, but if animals have souls, and rodents are animals...I'm not sure what kind of a reception might be waiting for me!

Jokes aside, I enjoyed your post Cathy. I recently lost what was without a doubt my best animal companion ever (bone cancer that had spread to the lungs). She was always by my side even in the painful last few hours. In one last effort she joined me in her last trip to the clinic. This has been months ago and she will never be replaced.

 

[Mokele]

Actually more of a bizarre mix of the two with some String (or "M") Theory being an extension of the Aum (or OM) concept thrown in there. I'm a strange eclectic sort of agnostic, no specific tradition just borrowing from whatever makes sense to me and adjusting my ideas as I learn more.

As an inside tip, you might want to adjust away from M theory; I've got a fair few friends (and a sister) in physics, and aparently it's looking a lot less compelling. Publications have been declining, and more physicists are beginning to speak out against the untestable nature of string and its related theories. Fortunately, the Large Hadron Collider comes online next month, and that might give us some clues either confirming or refuting it.

Very cool about your fiancee! I have student envy! I'd love to take some real classes someday.

Ironically, she actually wants to teach when she gets over to the US (as well as to breed herps).

Is there a pecking order? Is there a system, a beginning, an end, a path to get there, wherever there is?

Even that sponge has life. Is life itself qualification enough to have a soul? What about all those bacteria, more soup than animal, no brain at all, and yet, as living creatures, do they equal man? Or canine? Or feline or what have you.

These are exactly the big questions that are, I think, the most fun. They likely can't be solved, but IMHO, how we each reason about them can serve to not only hone our minds, but to give insight into ourselves and how each of our minds work.

Henry