Don't get scammed!

[polasian]

Some RED FLAGS to look for in a classifieds ad;

(Mind you, the following are simply things that I personally look for. Please post, regardless whether you agree or disagree with these "red flags." The goal here is to stimulate a debate about tell tale signs of scammers. Hopefully, after all is said and done, we might have a nice "rule of thumb" to help others use as a reference the next time they are considering making a purchase.)

- An animal is being offered up for a REALLY low price. (Pied - $200)

- The seller allows for some RIDICULOUS stipulation. ("send me 1/2 the money now and the other 1/2 when you receive the animal")

- A seller cuts off certain avenues of communication. ("I wont correspond via PM nor E-mail" or "I refuse to talk on the phone," etc...)

- Information on the ad is blatantly inaccurate. ("I am selling a 1 foot long, 20 pound Ball Boa")

- Telephone # doesn't correspond with the sellers listed location. (212 area code from a seller claiming to be located in FL)

- UNIQUELY bad grammar and/or spelling. (i sale nise snacke four yuo)

- Insists on irreversible payment methods. (i.e. Western Union)

- Refuses to provide information which would otherwise allow you to validate who they are.

- Refuses (when asked) to provide additional current pictures of the animals offered up for sale.

- The seller replies to your inquiry with a different phone # or email address than that which is listed on the ad.

- Suspicious images. Lazy scammers will occasionally steal easily found images off the net. Run a google image search for the animal being sold and you might be surprised at what you find.

- TOS inconsistencies.

I'd like to add something. If the seller has terms on their site, make sure you look over those and ask your questions before you send a dime. If they don't have some posted, ASK what they are! Be wary of sellers who try and change the terms on you! At a minimum, you should get a live arrival, healthy, properly sexed guarantee.

- Not answering all questions asked.

Not answering all questions asked. I realize most breeders are busy people, whether their business is a full-time thing or they have another job and breeding is just a hobby. However, it still makes me wonder if they even read the whole e-mail...or even care about reading the whole e-mail...or if they're refusing to answer the question(s) for more sinister reasons. At the very least, not answering questions asked makes the seller seem like they don't have time for you.

Sure, sometimes one or two, even three of the above "red flags" might pop up within an honest ad...it could just be a coincidence .

The following are some other concerns that might arise, however I don't know if I'd go as far as to call them "red flags."

- Animals offered for sale by a new member. One who has few (if any) posts and JUST signed up to this site a week or two prior to posting said ad.
I saw this concern recently come up...however for me personally, it doesn't make much of a difference if someone is a "noob" to this site or if they are one of the established members.

- Hets being offered without any paperwork or references.
For me, the seller can have all the paperwork and references they can dig up, however I wont even consider buying hets from anyone other than who I've done business with (repeatedly) in the past. That's unfortunate because I miss out on some great deals, and some breeders wont get my business.

Sorry...but past scams have completely turned me off to even entertaining the idea of purchasing hets from (not only) an "unknown" but also from anyone who I've never had dealings with. I know that the vast majority of seller are honest...however, I'm just not willing to take the risk of wasting a few years on a project just to find out that I got hosed.

- A seller locking their ad.
I personally have never locked any of my ads, as not to cast any suspicion of trying to hide something. However, if I was dealing with Venomoids (for example)...I'm confident that all my ads would be locked. That's a very emotional topic and I would prefer to avoid any "discussions" about right or wrong. The great thing about this site is that Rich did give everyone options. An OP can lock the ad, or keep it open. If an instigator does show up, the mods will soon follow.

Whats unfortunate is that, again, the vast majority of OP's who locks their ads, are honest sellers with nothing to hide. However, they may feel cornered into locking their ads due to the "trolls." That in turn, might cost them some business. Its like anything else...a handful of people force the rest of us to take all these extra precautions to keep things civil. Having said that...a locked ad will NOT deter me from contacting a seller.

- Website quality.
If a website is really, really, REALLY bad...I wont be contacting that seller. By "bad" I mean...poor grammar/spelling, missing images (red X's where an image was supposed to be), inaccurate species identification, no contact page, etc... Also, this day and age, consumers are VERY advanced. We are being flooded with THOUSANDS of ads and images every single day (commercials, billboards, company logos on clothing, etc...). In my opinion...if something looks better, it will sell better.

If I see two Sony DVD players on a shelf at Best Buy, with IDENTICAL specs...I'll still buy the more expensive one simply because it looks better (has some neon buttons, or a sleek casing ). Same thing with a website (for me anyway) if it looks really bad...that is something I will take into consideration prior to making a purchase. Maybe I'm being shallow, but that's just how I feel.

- Getting out of the business sale.

*A newbie getting out of the "business" or selling off stock. Unless very well established, I usually pass these deals up (sometimes I even cry .) However, it's been my (second-hand) experience, that newbies getting out of the game usually have not kept the animals up very well, and since the plan is to be getting out, reputations are no longer a factor in getting disputes resolved.

- Seller posts NO picture in the ad, HOWEVER he/she states that one can be supplied upon request.

*I HATE that. Why? Because, some of us do not have time to research every picture, thus it becomes invaluable to have many eyes on the same picture, someone else may recognize the animal as not belonging to the person. I believe that if the seller can email individual potential customers a picture on request, it's even simpler to post the picture in the ad and save customers the trouble of having to contact you individually....end rant.

- Pictures are out of poor quality

All pictures of the animals are out of focus, in extremely poor lighting, etc. Seems shallow, I know (and it might be), but if someone never has good pictures, it could mean a couple things: (1) they don't know how to take an in-focus picture, (2) they don't care about the quality of their pictures, and/or (3) they're trying to hide something about their animal by only taking photos in terrible lighting or only posting out-of-focus pictures. The first two reasons make me wonder if the person knows other basics, such as how to properly package a reptile, what shipping companies allow reptiles and/or snakes to be shipped, if the person is even old enough to be selling stuff on the Internet, etc.

- Insists you pay shipping on the animal/item that you're trading.

Beware if they ask if you can pay for the shipping of your own animal and they pay for the shipping of theirs..there are instances where this CAN be a good thing..but...if they have no intention of shipping out their animal..you are screwed and helped screw yourself and they have given you absolutely NOTHING for the animal.

I'm sure I left out many other red flags to keep an eye out for. Perhaps others can list certain things that sway them from going forward with a purchase?

 

[WiseReptiles]

Re:red flags

Nick I believe you hit the nail on the head this is an awesome list you got going and hopefully it will help some of the new buyers out with not getting scammed. I have noticed scammers have picked up quite a bit lately.

Christina Wise

 

[deborahbroadus]

Some RED FLAGS to look for in a classifieds ad;

(Mind you, the following are simply things that I personally look for. If you agree or disagree with these "red flags" then please post. The goal here is to stimulate a debate about tell tale signs of scammers. Hopefully, after all is said and done, we might have a nice "rules of thumb" to help others use as a reference the next time they are considering making a purchase.)

- An animal is being offered up for a REALLY low price. (Pied - $200)

- The seller allows for some RIDICULOUS stipulation. ("send me 1/2 the money now and the other 1/2 when you receive the animal")

- A seller cuts off certain avenues of communication. ("I wont correspond via PM nor E-mail" or "I refuse to talk on the phone," etc...)

- Information on the ad is blatantly inaccurate. ("I am selling a 1 foot long, 20 pound Ball Boa")

- Telephone # doesn't correspond with the sellers listed location. (212 area code from a seller claiming to be located in FL)

- UNIQUELY bad grammar and/or spelling. (i sale nise snacke four yuo)

- Insists on irreversible payment methods. (i.e. Western Union)

- Refuses to provide information which would otherwise allow you to validate who they are.

- Refuses (when asked) to provide additional pictures of the animals offered up for sale.

- The seller replies to your inquiry with a different phone # or email address than that which is listed on the ad.

- Suspicious images. Lazy scammers will occasionally steal easily found images off the net. Run a google image search for the animal being sold and you might be surprised at what you find.

Sure, sometimes one or two, even three of the above "red flags" might pop up within an honest ad...it could just be a coincidence .

The following are some other concerns that might arise, however I don't know if I'd go as far as to call them "red flags."

- Animals offered for sale by a new member. One who has few (if any) posts and JUST signed up to this site a week or two prior to posting said ad.
I saw this concern recently come up...however for me personally, it doesn't make much of a difference if someone is a "noob" to this site or if they are one of the established members.

- Hets being offered without any paperwork or references.
For me, the seller can have all the paperwork and references they can dig up, however I wont even consider buying hets from anyone other than who I've done business with (repeatedly) in the past. That's unfortunate because I miss out on some great deals, and some breeders wont get my business.

Sorry...but past scams have completely turned me off to even entertaining the idea of purchasing hets from (not only) an "unknown" but also from anyone who I've never had dealings with. I know that the vast majority of seller are honest...however, I'm just not willing to take the risk of wasting a few years on a project just to find out that I got hosed.

- A seller locking their ad.
I personally have never locked any of my ads, as not to cast any suspicion of trying to hide something. However, if I was dealing with Venomoids (for example)...I'm confident that all my ads would be locked. That's a very emotional topic and I would prefer to avoid any "discussions" about right or wrong. The great thing about this site is that Rich did give everyone options. An OP can lock the ad, or keep it open. If an instigator does show up, the mods will soon follow.

Whats unfortunate is that, again, the vast majority of OP's who locks their ads, are honest sellers with nothing to hide. However, they may feel cornered into locking their ads due to the "trolls." That in turn, might cost them some business. Its like anything else...a handful of people force the rest of us to take all these extra precautions to keep things civil. Having said that...a locked ad will NOT deter me from contacting a seller.

- Website quality.
If a website is really, really, REALLY bad...I wont be contacting that seller. By "bad" I mean...poor grammar/spelling, missing images (red X's where an image was supposed to be), inaccurate species identification, no contact page, etc... Also, this day and age, consumers are VERY advanced. We are being flooded with THOUSANDS of ads and images every single day (commercials, billboards, company logos on clothing, etc...). In my opinion...if something looks better, it will sell better.

If I see two Sony DVD players on a shelf at Best Buy, with IDENTICAL specs...I'll still buy the more expensive one simply because it looks better (has some neon buttons, or a sleek casing ). Same thing with a website (for me anyway) if it looks really bad...that is something I will take into consideration prior to making a purchase. Maybe I'm being shallow, but that's just how I feel.

I'm sure I left out many other red flags to keep an eye out for. Perhaps others can list certain things that sway them from going forward with a purchase?

This is an excellent post!!

I follow basically the same rule of thumbs that you outlined above. With one more stipulation..

*A newbie getting out of the "business" or selling off stock. Unless very well established, I usually pass these deals up (sometimes I even cry .) However, it's been my (second-hand) experience, that newbies getting out of the game usually have not kept the animals up very well, and since the plan is to be getting out, reputations are no longer a factor in getting disputes resolved.

 

[hhmoore]

I'm one of those people that doesn't do business by phone....I hate phones, and I like having a written record of what is said. I will give my phone number, if asked; but I also immediately point out that I am nearly impossible to reach by phone. If talking to me on the phone will make you feel better, leave your number and a few time periods you can be reached. I will call back; but if the stated times conflict with my schedule, it will be a few days (though if we have been in email/PM communication, I will explain that, and give a day to expect my call).
I'm not trying to hide anything, it's just my reality - the ringer on my phone is turned off the vast majority of the time because sleep is precious to me & I'm too damn lazy to turn it on and off every day. (Now that I think of it, my answering machine is still tucked inside a dresser drawer from a reorganizing episode about a month and a half ago...oops...out of sight, out of mind )
Has this cost me sales? Probably...but it isn't going to change. AND, if I give somebody my number & they don't speak clearly, I don't worry much about calling them back.




**Any interest on starting a thread on how to be a good buyer? A lot of people could use some pointers, lol.**

 

[Shadera]

I'm with Harald. I'd rather not spend hours a day chatting on the phone when email works great and there's no question later about who agreed to what. All my customers do have my number for any issues when their animal arrives, however.

I also lock some of my ads. Not because I have something to hide, but because I prefer people to contact me via email as I can't always check the forum regularly for replies to the ad.

Have those things lost me sales? Probably. But I'm not in this for the money, and if someone's that anal retentive about those two items they're probably someone I wouldn't wanna do business with anyways. Some of those things are clear scammer ploys, some of that is gray area.

I agree, we do need a good buyer thread.

 

[polasian]

*A newbie getting out of the "business" or selling off stock. Unless very well established, I usually pass these deals up (sometimes I even cry .) However, it's been my (second-hand) experience, that newbies getting out of the game usually have not kept the animals up very well, and since the plan is to be getting out, reputations are no longer a factor in getting disputes resolved.

Deb you are 100% correct! "Collection for sale" ads could potentially bring in some problems. Even if the seller is a proven "good guy," I still use caution. I guess it has to do with human nature. Herping is pretty much an addiction ...we love this stuff. So when someone is forced to get out of the game (or if they simply had enough of it and liquidate their collection with no outside pressures) it bring emotions into play...depression, second guessing, and so forth. That could effect (even if not intentionally) the quality of communication, or "making something right" if the buyer has any problems with the animals.

Then you have those sellers who use the "getting out of the business" title as a ploy to unload/flip some animals that they received in a trade/package deal and have no use for. One also has to consider that anyone getting out of the business might not really be too concerned over a "bad guy" thread popping up. Ultimately there are several reasons to think twice before responding to such ads. Good catch Deb . Deb, do you mind if I incorporate your quoted text into the first post? I think it would be good to emphasize that.

I'm one of those people that doesn't do business by phone....I hate phones, and I like having a written record of what is said. I will give my phone number, if asked; but I also immediately point out that I am nearly impossible to reach by phone. If talking to me on the phone will make you feel better, leave your number and a few time periods you can be reached. I will call back; but if the stated times conflict with my schedule, it will be a few days (though if we have been in email/PM communication, I will explain that, and give a day to expect my call).
I'm not trying to hide anything, it's just my reality - the ringer on my phone is turned off the vast majority of the time because sleep is precious to me & I'm too damn lazy to turn it on and off every day. (Now that I think of it, my answering machine is still tucked inside a dresser drawer from a reorganizing episode about a month and a half ago...oops...out of sight, out of mind )
Has this cost me sales? Probably...but it isn't going to change. AND, if I give somebody my number & they don't speak clearly, I don't worry much about calling them back.

I'm with Harald. I'd rather not spend hours a day chatting on the phone when email works great and there's no question later about who agreed to what. All my customers do have my number for any issues when their animal arrives, however.

I also lock some of my ads. Not because I have something to hide, but because I prefer people to contact me via email as I can't always check the forum regularly for replies to the ad.

Have those things lost me sales? Probably. But I'm not in this for the money, and if someones that anal retentive about those two items they're probably someone I wouldn't wanna do business with anyways. Some of those things are clear scammer ploys, some of that is gray area.

I was referring to sellers who flat out refuse to provide a phone number when its requested. I don't see anything wrong with your preference for doing things via Internet. Hell, both of you have such great trader ratings, I don't think others see anything wrong with it either .

As you stated, some people do prefer communicating in ways which will provide them with proof of the details of the transaction. That way if they are ever put in a position where they have to prove their case, they can do so with ease.

On top of that, I also hate phones...they cause cancer ...I mean if it wasn't for my tin foiled hat, I wouldn't even own a computer

As far as the locking of ads, yes I agree...gray area for sure.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Deb you are 100% correct! "Collection for sale" ads could potentially bring in some problems. Even if the seller is a proven "good guy," I still use caution. I guess it has to do with human nature. Herping is pretty much an addiction ...we love this stuff. So when someone is forced to get out of the game (or if they simply had enough of it and liquidate their collection with no outside pressures) it bring emotions into play...depression, second guessing, and so forth. That could effect (even if not intentionally) the quality of communication, or "making something right" if the buyer has any problems with the animals.

Then you have those sellers who use the "getting out of the business" title as a ploy to unload/flip some animals that they received in a trade/package deal and have no use for. One also has to consider that anyone getting out of the business might not really be too concerned over a "bad guy" thread popping up. Ultimately there are several reasons to think twice before responding to such ads. Good catch Deb . Deb, do you mind if I incorporate your quoted text into the first post? I think it would be good to emphasize that.




I was referring to sellers who flat out refuse to provide a phone number when its requested. I don't see anything wrong with your preference for doing things via Internet. Hell, both of you have such great trader ratings, I don't think others see anything wrong with it either .

As you stated, some people do prefer communicating in ways which will provide them with proof of the details of the transaction. That way if they are ever put in a position where they have to prove their case, they can do so with ease.

On top of that, I also hate phones...they cause cancer ...I mean if it wasn't for my tin foiled hat, I wouldn't even own a computer

As far as the locking of ads, yes I agree...gray area for sure.

Incorporate away...

 

[hhmoore]

Locking ads
I don't view it as a grey area. When you factor in the number of people that don't have enough common sense NOT to make disruptive posts in an ad, it actually makes sense to lock them. Besides...I HATE people posting in my ads, and I clearly indicate in every one of them to contact me via PM or email. I won't state the odds, but there is a good chance that if somebody posts an inquiry in my ad, I won't respond....and that I will repost the ad to get rid of it. If there is a piece of information that I neglected, I will edit my ad to include it.

 

[TailsWithScales]

EXCELLENT post Polasian!

I would like to add a little red flag of my own.

A seller not willing or doesn't email CURRENT photos upon request and in a timely manner.

Have seen this a few times too. Just a thought.

 

[Lucille]

Nicholas, GREAT thread!!! I personally think it is much better to put up warnings like this (I am hoping it could become a sticky somewhere) rather than impose rules and regulations which mean well but strangle easy access for the good guys. The bad guys always seem to find an end run around the rules, but threads like this protect buyers in a way that can't be taken from them, by illustrating how a scam could go down, and making them think.

Great job, thank you

 

[Shadera]

Thank you for that clarification.

I'd like to add something. If the seller has terms on their site, make sure you look over those and ask your questions before you send a dime. If they don't have some posted, ASK what they are! Be wary of sellers who try and change the terms on you! At a minimum, you should get a live arrival, healthy, properly sexed guarantee.

 

[shrap]

Some RED FLAGS to look for in a classifieds ad;

- Refuses (when asked) to provide additional pictures of the animals offered up for sale.

Normals, Hets, Possible hets..... it will be a cold day in hell before I provide "additional" pictures of any of those, as someone just found out. And it caused me to lose a $2000 deal. I didnt care in the slightest.

 

[polasian]

Thanks guys, I'm glad you enjoy this thread, I know I do . Also, thanks for all your input thus far!

A seller not willing or doesn't email CURRENT photos upon request and in a timely manner.

Noted .

Thank you for that clarification.

I'd like to add something. If the seller has terms on their site, make sure you look over those and ask your questions before you send a dime. If they don't have some posted, ASK what they are! Be wary of sellers who try and change the terms on you! At a minimum, you should get a live arrival, healthy, properly sexed guarantee.

Another EXCELLENT point! If a seller is inconsistent with their own policies...then it might be time to move on to the next ad. I'll put that up in the first post as well because I think it needs to be stressed.

Normals, Hets, Possible hets..... it will be a cold day in hell before I provide "additional" pictures of any of those, as someone just found out. And it caused me to lose a $2000 deal. I didnt care in the slightest.

Why such animosity towards a photo shoot request ? I recently saw you post up an ad for a Pied and several possible hets (if I'm mistaken, I apologize). While shopping for possible het Pieds, one tries to look for any markers. Perhaps that's why additional images where requested.

By the way...that is one beautiful pied!!!

 

[shrap]

Why such animosity towards a photo shoot request ? I recently saw you post up an ad for a Pied and several possible hets (if I'm mistaken, I apologize). While shopping for possible het Pieds, one tries to look for any markers. Perhaps that's why additional images where requested.

By the way...that is one beautiful pied!!!

The problem I had was with "additional" photos for Normals or Normal appearing animals. The key word there being "additional".

And dont get me started on the so called Pied markers. I have produced just as many het Pieds that didnt have the so called marker as those that did. Not to mention all the Normals with the marker.

 

[polasian]

The problem I had was with "additional" photos for Normals or Normal appearing animals. The key word there being "additional".

And dont get me started on the so called Pied markers. I have produced just as many het Pieds that didnt have the so called marker as those that did. Not to mention all the Normals with the marker.

Additional, other, more, extra, etc...choose whichever of those words you feel is more fitting. I still don't see what the problem would be to provide *insert synonym for additional here* pictures that you might have laying around.

Perhaps by "additional" you mean a potential buyer asking the seller to take a more specific picture (for ex, the snakes resting on today's newspaper with the sellers drivers licence, with everything other than the name being hidden, placed next to them). Even if that's the case...the first thing I'd do is grab the paper, then the snakes, then my wallet, then the camera. With all the horror stories floating around on the BOI, its not surprising that people are cautious and tentative...they need to be reassured. The sellers actions throughout the transaction (from "Hello" to "Goodbye") fall under the customer service blanket. So why not just entertain a potential buyers simple request?

As far as the markers go...I understand that they are no different from a coin toss. But again, I don't see why one cant just go along with the buyers request for "additional" pictures. Some buyers prefer to purchase snakes with markers...call them superstitious or naive or whatever. If they want it, why not give it to them? It would be no skin off your back and you'd now have 2k in your pocket. Honestly I'm curious...I don't understand why a seller would exclude a certain customer demographic (individuals who prefer markers on their poss hets) by not taking some belly shots (or whatever the request was).

My previous paragraph was typed under the assumption that your poss hets have markets...if they don't, then ignore said paragraph. Non the less, the first paragraph still holds true (to me anyway). Can you please elaborate on what you find so offensive with "additional" . I'm trying to understand ones thought process behind this. Thanks.

 

[deborahbroadus]

EXCELLENT post Polasian!

I would like to add a little red flag of my own.

A seller not willing or doesn't email CURRENT photos upon request and in a timely manner.

Have seen this a few times too. Just a thought.

Let me add to that:

Seller doesn't even have a picture in the ad, but will email it on request.

*I HATE that. Why? Because, some of us do not have time to research every picture, thus it becomes invaluable to have many eyes on the same picture, someone else may recognize the animal as not belonging to the person. I believe that if the seller can email individual potential customers a picture on request, it's even simpler to post the picture in the ad and save customers the trouble of having to contact you individually....end rant.

 

[polasian]

Let me add to that:

Seller doesn't even have a picture in the ad, but will email it on request.

*I HATE that. Why? Because, some of us do not have time to research every picture, thus it becomes invaluable to have many eyes on the same picture, someone else may recognize the animal as not belonging to the person. I believe that if the seller can email individual potential customers a picture on request, it's even simpler to post the picture in the ad and save customers the trouble of having to contact you individually....end rant.

I love it Deb!!! I threw it up under "things to look out for but not necessarily red flags."

Some sellers might not want to plaster their pics all over the place for fear that they will be stolen and used for other things. I can see why some might not want to make it easier for said "pictures thieves" to get their hands on the merchandise. However, at the same time, if the seller doesn't post pics, then the thought that THEY might be the "picture thieves," does occasionally get planted.

Ultimately what will eliminate most (if not all) doubt, is the sellers willingness to be transparent. Not showing pics within an ad is just another hurdle for the buyer to go through. I just post pics in my ads and call it a day. I mean it doesn't matter what precautions one takes, if someone wants to steal your pic, they will find a way to do so.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I love it Deb!!! I threw it up under "things to look out for but not necessarily red flags."

Some sellers might not want to plaster their pics all over the place for fear that they will be stolen and used for other things. I can see why some might not want to make it easier for said "pictures thieves" to get their hands on the merchandise. However, at the same time, if the seller doesn't post pics, then the thought that THEY might be the "picture thieves," does occasionally get planted.

Ultimately what will eliminate most (if not all) doubt, is the sellers willingness to be transparent. Not showing pics within an ad is just another hurdle for the buyer to go through. I just post pics in my ads and call it a day. I mean it doesn't matter what precautions one takes, if someone wants to steal your pic, they will find a way to do so.

To me, it would seem that emailing individual pictures would make picture thievery easier. Because in that case, they don't have to copy and possibly get a grainy picture from the website, they can get top grade pictures mailed to their very own e-mail box that possibly have never been posted anywhere before so will be harder to track down!

 

[polasian]

To me, it would seem that emailing individual pictures would make picture thievery easier. Because in that case, they don't have to copy and possibly get a grainy picture from the website, they can get top grade pictures mailed to their very own e-mail box that possibly have never been posted anywhere before so will be harder to track down!

Good point!

 

[TailsWithScales]

Stealing a photo is easy regardless of whether it's posted on a site or emailed.

That's where the seller should use precaution and watermark their photos.

This is how my photos now look.



I do the name on the animal because if someone attempts to remove it it's going to really alter the animal's markings.



**Nile monitor NFS**