Dragons Den Herp (INFO)

[LauraB]

DDen/Kevin ...

...it is very difficult to get a photograph showing true representation of color without changing exposure or adding/subtracting contrast. When I post a picture of a dragon, I often have to add contrast and darken the exposure to make the dragon appear the way it looks in person.
...let me say this regarding photos and color: I often add contrast to, or change the brightness of, pictures that I post of my bearded dragons. I NEVER do this to mislead people, or misrepresent an animal. I only do this to compensate for the bright sunlight and to make the picture show true representation of the dragon at that time.

With all due respect, that makes no sense. Natural sunlight is the best for taking photos. If you keep your dragons outside, as you said, then they should be nice and warm, colored up, and appear the same to a camera lens as they would "in person". (Uh ... you are there "in person" taking an image of a subject "in person"). It is when you photograph indoors, under fluorescent lights, using a flash, or in a darkened room, that photos appear washed out, faded or inordinately bright and editing can be necessary.
There is only one reason to screw around with contrast. And whether you intend to or not, it IS misrepresenting ... you are altering the photograph to enhance color. Period.

Regardless of your explanation, even more interesting is the disclaimer from your site ... you even state you will not guarantee against misrepresentation of color, even while fully acknowledging here you alter the contrast in your photos!

... our guarantee does not apply to color. We believe that we produce some of the finest color morphs of dragons and geckos available, and we will do our best to provide our customers with the colors they request, but we will not offer refunds due to lack or misinterpretation of color.

Just for comparison, here are a couple photos I took myself. Outdoors. In bright summer sunlight. Completely and totally unretouched. And without a fancy complicated camera. The reds are red, the greens are green. No misrepresentation. And no, I don't photograph for a living. Perhaps it's time for a new camera. The one I use cost less than what the OP paid for the dragon.

~ Laura Bolt

 

[JimD]

Regardless of your explanation, even more interesting is the disclaimer from your site ... you even state you will not guarantee against misrepresentation of color, even while fully acknowledging here you alter the contrast in your photos!



~ Laura Bolt

... our guarantee does not apply to color. We believe that we produce some of the finest color morphs of dragons and geckos available, and we will do our best to provide our customers with the colors they request, but we will not offer refunds due to lack or misinterpretation of color.

I think there is a difference between the two...........

Jim

 

[LauraB]

My apologies

JimD ... you are absolutely correct. I totally misread the guarantee/disclaimer. My apologies to Kevin ... and now headed out to get my eyes checked along with a swift kick to the arse. So sorry.

~ Laura Bolt

 

[SouthernDragons]

I'd hate to rain on someone's parade.. but I purchased some dragons from Kevin a while back. Three to be exact, 1.1 bloods, and a 1.0 Sandfire. These are the following photos of the two males. The female was a last minute addition to the order, so there is no photo of her. Ok, well I had asked him for some of the best colored B grade dragons he had. (I dont mind, stub tails nor missing toes, aslong as the color is exceptional, these would be breeders anyways), he said he had a few and would pick out some smokers. Sure enough I got these..

I paid a fair amount of money for these three lizards. He was nice enough to work with me, and give me time to pay them off.

So back to the story, they came in..
I opened the package from Kevin and I looked at my babies... well the male was a tad dark, and bit grumpy. No biggie, the female was "brown" and the sandfire male was more of a pastel tangy orange color. Not a bright flourscent Orange as I had seen in the pictures.

Will to make a long story short, the male did turn up being one of the brightest red dragons I have come to acquire. NOT saturated red like some other lineages, but RED none the less. Unfortunately the male died bout a month and half later. Necropsy stated it was due to "bad liver" I'll get the actual wording to post. I did email Kevin, but I didn't state: "I want a refund, you sold me crap, etc.." no I was at fault some how, and I just wanted to let him know that it died. Plus, I wouldn't want to be held responsible neither for someone else negligence. So anyhow... the "brown" female is now turning up with more red, and yellow coloration than before. She is coloring up nicely. The male sandfire... is still a pastel/washed out orange sort of say. I do keep these guys outside on a daily basis. They have outdoor bins that I have setup, so they have full exposure to UVB and UVA rays. So to make a long story short, and to get this over with, I havent really had any problems with the representation of his dragons, I've been happy soo far. And to add, temperature, lighting conditions, and the dragons mood all adds to the result of how the lizard looks.

Here is the Sandfire male "pastel orange" that I got from Kevin, and this is with my camera.

Also pictures of the same lizard under different lighting conditions, the same beardie just woken up, fired up, etc.. etc.. So it does vary alot (he's actually alot more orange around the outside of his body, and yellow down the middle etc.

 

[SouthernDragons]

 

[Cat_72]

Raul, they are definitely nice Beardies, but wow....that orange male looks NOTHING like the picture provided to you! If the pics are only altered to show what the dragons "actually look like in person"....I don't understand why they do not look like that.

And I'm curious also, if the one male died only a month or so after you received it from a bad liver, what did you do that makes you so certain that you were the cause? The other animals you picture look like you have taken fine care of them.

 

[snake5007]

I'd hate to rain on someone's parade.. but I purchased some dragons from Kevin a while back. Three to be exact, 1.1 bloods, and a 1.0 Sandfire. These are the following photos of the two males. The female was a last minute addition to the order, so there is no photo of her. Ok, well I had asked him for some of the best colored B grade dragons he had. (I dont mind, stub tails nor missing toes, aslong as the color is exceptional, these would be breeders anyways), he said he had a few and would pick out some smokers. Sure enough I got these..

I paid a fair amount of money for these three lizards. He was nice enough to work with me, and give me time to pay them off.

So back to the story, they came in..
I opened the package from Kevin and I looked at my babies... well the male was a tad dark, and bit grumpy. No biggie, the female was "brown" and the sandfire male was more of a pastel tangy orange color. Not a bright flourscent Orange as I had seen in the pictures.

Will to make a long story short, the male did turn up being one of the brightest red dragons I have come to acquire. NOT saturated red like some other lineages, but RED none the less. Unfortunately the male died bout a month and half later. Necropsy stated it was due to "bad liver" I'll get the actual wording to post. I did email Kevin, but I didn't state: "I want a refund, you sold me crap, etc.." no I was at fault some how, and I just wanted to let him know that it died. Plus, I wouldn't want to be held responsible neither for someone else negligence. So anyhow... the "brown" female is now turning up with more red, and yellow coloration than before. She is coloring up nicely. The male sandfire... is still a pastel/washed out orange sort of say. I do keep these guys outside on a daily basis. They have outdoor bins that I have setup, so they have full exposure to UVB and UVA rays. So to make a long story short, and to get this over with, I havent really had any problems with the representation of his dragons, I've been happy soo far. And to add, temperature, lighting conditions, and the dragons mood all adds to the result of how the lizard looks.

Here is the Sandfire male "pastel orange" that I got from Kevin, and this is with my camera.

Also pictures of the same lizard under different lighting conditions, the same beardie just woken up, fired up, etc.. etc.. So it does vary alot (he's actually alot more orange around the outside of his body, and yellow down the middle etc.

I still think that the seller is wrong in regards to doctoring photo's to make the animals amazingly bright. So far, i don't see any of your animals showing much of a resemblance to those in the pics from the seller. I know that beardies change colour depending on mood etc. but have you seen yours turn as bright as the ones in the sellers photographs?

 

[dden]

Laura- No apologies needed.

Christopher- I told you I would gladly take your dragon back and give you a full refund. I know the color it showed here, and I would be happy to keep him as a breeder.

Raul- If you would have explained the circumstances, I would have offered to replace your dragon that died...call me to discuss it.

I have been breeding Bearded Dragons for 13-14 years and I have thousands of happy customers throughout the world. I have never tried to rip-off anybody, or misrepresent an animal. If I change a picture, it is only to make it look as it looks in person. Part of the reason I do this is to show the person who buys it, if husbandry requirements are met, how the dragon should look. It is very difficult to show accurate color representation, in bright sunlight, with a digital camera (at least if I am the one taking the picture). The pictures you posted look great. I don't know if you have a very good camera, are a good photographer, or are just better at taking pictures than I am, but I wish I could get my pictures to show the reds like they do in the pics you posted. I would welcome you to come by the ranch and see for yourself how colorful our dragons are (when they are hot) and how dull they are (when they are cool). I have a photographer coming today or tomorrow to take some pictures of dragons and I will have him take a pic of the red one that is posted earlier in this forum, next to a color board, so everyone can see how it really does look. If I can figure out how to put pics in my posts, I will put them up here. Again, I have never tried to rip-off anybody. In fact, if somebody tells me that their dragon died, or is not doing well, usually offer to send another (without even asking for the original dragon to be returned)...
Kevin
Kevin Dunne

 

[Roy G]

I still think that the seller is wrong in regards to doctoring photo's to make the animals amazingly bright.

Just throwing this out there...I'm not a professional photographer, or even an amateur one for that matter, but color balance and white balance in digital photography are very complicated subject areas. Pretty much all photos need some correction to resemble what the eye sees. Some cameras do a decent job of auto-correcting in a range of lighting. Most do not. Some cameras have a variety of presets to set correction for particular kinds of light. Older cameras might not.

I have never taken a picture of my albino hondurans that looked anything like them without color correction in any light, and with any camera settings (and I've tried them all).

All that is to say that just because a photo is adjusted, does not mean it's fraudulent or dishonest. In the end, it's an issue of trust. If you trust a breeder to represent his or her animals fairly, great. If not, you might want to see them in person first.

 

[greenmansgeckos]

I have gotten two sandfires and close to thirty crested geckos from kevin. I will continue to do business with him, and if anyone is asking hes a good guy!!!

 

[SouthernDragons]

And I'm curious also, if the one male died only a month or so after you received it from a bad liver, what did you do that makes you so certain that you were the cause? The other animals you picture look like you have taken fine care of them.

I understand where your coming from, but as a small breeder and someone who's trying to make ends meat. Its hard for me to replace animals a month or two down the line once the customer has taken it from me. For all I know, he/she might be feeding it crap, keeping it improperly, etc.. etc.. they're are soo many different circumstances that I could effect the health of the lizard. I would only be able to gurantee its health after a week from date a purchase. After that its the customer's responsibilty and thats why I stated that: I didnt call Kevin to replace it nor to refund me back, I just wanted to inform him that one of the dragons died. I doubt he sent me a sick lizard knowningly. Its bound to happen, to all of us, out of all the clutches we have, I'm pretty sure 1% or maybe a tad more, dont strive and die.

I'm not bashing Kevin whatsoever, again he helped me out with payment, and I'm satisfied with the dragons I have, so ok yes maybe one came in a tad bit discolored, but you know what he's still nicer than others I've seen. He promised me a READY TO BREED male, and thats what I got. He was nice enough to hold them for me, and he did work with me. Alot of breeders out there are more about making a quick buck "right now" and not working with you just cause your short a certain amount or cause you dont have the full amount at hand. He was nice enough to accomodate my situation, he even sent me the female without paying it first, allowing me to decide whether I wanted it or not. That left a "GOOD" impression on me that he was legit, courteous, and trustworthy.

So for the record on my part. I don't think Kevin Dunne from Dragons Den is a bad guy. I would continue to purchase from him again in the future. If you have any questions feel free to email me @

[email protected]

Raul A. Gonzalez

 

[outsdr2]

I am sure there are some good things Kevin has done. But the facts show he tweaked his pictures to make a profit. I know that photoshop is a wonderful tool and that it can be used in a positive manner and it is not always proof of deception, but in Kevins case he did not just make a simple contrast adjustment to make the picture look better, he took the color into a whole other realm. That is not the action of a good guy! He got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. I believe the customer should get a full refund including shipping. and a promise not to take advantage of people interested in our hobby would be great. I know I will be watching kingsnake with a more skeptical eye.
Jack

 

[LauraB]

For the record

I have never before now, seen, read or heard a bad word about Kevin, so I don't really believe this one post qualifies him as a "bad guy" per se. (I also have never purchased from him, nor he from me, so I am unbiased)

I do admit to having a problem with tweaking the contrast, brightness, hue, saturation or whatever of a photo to enhance the color of any animal advertised for sale, especially at premium prices. I also believe that Kevin might want to re-evaluate that practice and tweak his photography skills instead. As was suggested, better to show the animal as the camera actually sees it and have the end consumer pleasantly surprised that it's prettier than expected.
As a dragon keeper, I know I would be incensed to pay $250. for a dragon that was advertised/shown a brilliant red only to ultimately own a fairly average looking specimen even if kept under the same conditions recommended by the breeder.

That said, to his credit, Kevin has responded, has been honest in admitting to tweaking and has offered a refund to Christopher and assistance to Raul. That in itself is more than the majority of "bad guys" exposed here have done.

I, for one, look forward to seeing the new photos Kevin has said he will post after the photographer takes them, and also to resolution, should Christoper and Raul take Kevin up on his offer. Hopefully Kevin hasn't tarnished

(And I am still embarrassed about misreading & misinterpreting the disclaimer on Kevin's site)

~ Laura Bolt

 

[dden]

OK...Here are a few pictures:
1) Taken from my own crummy camera in natural light.
2) Taken professionally in natural light
3) Taken professionally and then adjusted to match the color on the color chart.
A few notes:
The first picture, taken by myself, does not even come close to representing the true color of the dragon as I see it with my eyes. The second picture, taken professionally (with a very expensive camera), still does not capture the true color of the dragon. In this picture (#2) the color is one level off (the color that is marked "red-orange" on the computer pic. corresponds with the color marked "orange" on the color chart, and so on...). So basically, the digital image is reduced one full color shade lighter. In the third picture I have saturated the color just enough to make the color chart on the image match the actual color chart as I hold it up to my computer screen. Complicating thins even more, every computer screen will portray colors a little differently, as will internet providers and different computer programs (like photoshop, explorer, etc.). Since I can't expect everybody to have a color chart, and adjust their computers to match the colors accurately, that leaves me with a dilemma: do I adjust pictures so that the colors on my screen match the color chart? Or do I do nothing and post the pictures knowing that they do not portray the actual color of the dragon? Or maybe post one of each?
Hopefully I'll be able to post the pictures here and I won't have spent all of this time typing for nothing!

 

[dden]

Forgot to mention: This is the same dragon "BB" the LauraB posted pictures of in earlier post.

 

[LauraB]

Kevin ...

Okay, the first pic you took is crappy
Well, not really crappy, but you are correct. Your pic does not show the true color of "BB". Perhaps it's time to replace your Canon PowerShot, or use the zoom/macro as Michael may have done. (Yours is a 5 mega pix, just like mine.)

However, the second pic of BB taken in natural sunlight by Michael Ready I do believe probably captures the closest, most realistic, truest color of BB. And he's beautiful! He needs no further tweaking!

Pic #3 you tweaked to match the color chart is off the chart, in terms of artificial brilliance. It's obvious that it's unnatural.

Maybe I'm not getting the point, but it seems to me you want to manipulate the color of the dragon to match a color chart, so you can more easily define it (?)
I'm not sure if an animal's color is supposed to be matched to a color chart when and if you want to represent it realistically. The dragon is what it is, it's not meant to correspond to a specific color off a chart IMO. Yes, Michael's original photo does not positively match the red-orange swatch of the chart, but it probably best represents the dragon's true color. And if BB's more brilliant in person and a customer finds that out for him or herself, then all the better!

I suppose instead of tweaking the contrast, perhaps you could add a small amount of brightness to your photos instead. (you use PhotoShop Elements, right?) That way you get more brightness without artificial reds or oranges and you won't get raked across the coals for manipulating contrast and/or hue.

Maybe some other photo "people" can contribute suggestions. Thanks for posting the pics, Kevin.

~ Laura Bolt

 

[Chameleon Company]

This is a nice discussion, one with merit we often do not see here. For the level of camera savvy that can be expected within the community, in its simplest form, it will always come down to whether or not the buying customer got what they expected. I saw references earlier to manipulation of brightness and contrast, which I would consider to usually be minimal levels of manipuation, and very often not with intent to misrepresent the animal. I do it often enough, and usually because the picture is just too dark. If whatever one does changes the actual live appearance of the critter, vs. changing the appearance of the picture, then we are risking misrepresentation. We have all seen egregious examples. But if the adjustments are done to more accurately represent an animal that did not photograph well, then it is perfectly acceptable. Those are subjective opinions, and the final determinant will be if the customer's expectations were met or exceeded, and if not, did we have a satisfaction guarantee to make it right, and was it honored. If the customer wants to return an animal that the seller thinks was the prettiest one in the world, any legitimate seller would have the mechanisms in place to allow such within a defined and easily understood time frame. If it degrades into a "did too" "did not" over picture manipulation, then the seller has already allowed themselves to be pulled down where they did not need to go. A satisfaction guarantee need be the only reply.

 

[Seamus Haley]

If the customer wants to return an animal that the seller thinks was the prettiest one in the world, any legitimate seller would have the mechanisms in place to allow such within a defined and easily understood time frame.

Therein lies the problem. The guarantee as written specifically prohibits refunds being issued over color "misinterpretation" Combine that with a dealer who is manipulating the color saturation and hue of photographs and you have arrived at what can only be described as deception. When the photos are tampered with, it is not a misinterpretation on the part of the buyer, who was passive in the determination, but misrepresentation by a lying, scamming dealer- who was actively altering the photos to mislead the buyer.

What Kevin is doing is no more correct or acceptable than the garbage that Vince Russello tried to pull a few years back.

 

[RowingMunkeyCU]

OK...Here are a few pictures:
1) Taken from my own crummy camera in natural light.
2) Taken professionally in natural light
3) Taken professionally and then adjusted to match the color on the color chart.
A few notes:
The first picture, taken by myself, does not even come close to representing the true color of the dragon as I see it with my eyes. The second picture, taken professionally (with a very expensive camera), still does not capture the true color of the dragon. In this picture (#2) the color is one level off (the color that is marked "red-orange" on the computer pic. corresponds with the color marked "orange" on the color chart, and so on...). So basically, the digital image is reduced one full color shade lighter. In the third picture I have saturated the color just enough to make the color chart on the image match the actual color chart as I hold it up to my computer screen. Complicating thins even more, every computer screen will portray colors a little differently, as will internet providers and different computer programs (like photoshop, explorer, etc.). Since I can't expect everybody to have a color chart, and adjust their computers to match the colors accurately, that leaves me with a dilemma: do I adjust pictures so that the colors on my screen match the color chart? Or do I do nothing and post the pictures knowing that they do not portray the actual color of the dragon? Or maybe post one of each?
Hopefully I'll be able to post the pictures here and I won't have spent all of this time typing for nothing!

Wow... I've been holding my tongue until now, but adjusting the colors like that is beyond ridiculous. I remember seeing the pictures on your site in 2006, and driving out to the NARBC in Tinley Park, ready to buy a brilliantly colored dragon. When I arrived (with your booth and Sandfire Dragons together) I thought there must be something wrong, since the entire container of 'blood' dragons hardly had any more color than a regular PetCo dragon. Whoever was at the booth assured me that they would color up too as they got older, since they were under stress. However another breeder (TKO Dragons) had dragons the same size, and 10x the color (which do you think I went with?).

If you believe that the 3rd picture is what they actually look like, you may want to get your eyes checked...

Try using a 'gray card' to properly adjust the white balance on the pro camera, and you'll be guaranteed accurate color representation.

 

[dden]

I understand that you all probably know more about cameras and photography than I do, but in all honesty, the 3rd picture is the one that most resembles the actual color of the dragon, although the dragon still looks better than that in person. When I added saturation to #3, it was to try and match the color chart in my hand to the color chart in the picture...in other words, trying to make the red, orange, yellow, match the same colors on the chart. I figured that, by showing the color on the chart as close to "true" as possible, that would mean that the color on the dragon was also portrayed accurately. I may not be correct in thinking that, but at least it is worth mentioning...
Here are a coupl more pictures taken with my crummy camers. Both are of the same dragon...#1 at 10:00am and #2 about 2 1/2 hours later after it had warmed-up.