Bad Guy Drew at Underground Reptiles stole 784$

[bcmaddox]

It's kind of sad that a business has such a bad reputation and they do nothing to try and change. I am constantly skimming the classifieds of Fauna and Kingsnake and any time I see UGR logo I keep on scrolling. I have seen animals that interest me just do not want to deal with the "what if something goes wrong" situation.

 

[David Reid]

I have never even considered doing business with Underground....basically, because of these type of posts.


Dave

 

[ElliotNess]

I dont see how this is healthy for the animals...
Posted this cause there is the mention of BOIs in the video. FROM 2010

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK_aCwwPUcY

 

[allreptiles1966]

I dont see how this is healthy for the animals...
Posted this cause there is the mention of BOIs in the video. FROM 2010

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK_aCwwPUcY

I just watched the video. Don't Blue Tongue Skinks drink water? The water bowls were green and nasty,not to mention DRY!! He was more worried about finding babies late in the season than filling the water bowls. Didn't even tell his kid or helper to get them water. Just look for babies.
I would not film myself and my animals for a video with dry,green nasty bowls included in video. Not that my snakes bowls are dirty or nasty. I wash mine weekly. I do realize that in the hot sun,they will get Algae in them,but that's what soap,water and a scrubby is for,to clean when they are that bad. I also know it's not really going to hurt the lizard,but good husbandry is always a priority.

 

[gila7150]

I think that Underground Reptiles owes the OP a full refund based on what I've read but I think it's a little unfair to criticize husbandry based on this 4 year old video.
As someone who has raised reptiles outside in Florida, I will tell you that shallow water bowls like that can dry out in a day in August (when this video was made). I can also tell you that it rains just about every day in the late afternoon in the summer in FL.
If I could I would keep every reptile I had outdoors in the FL sun because they thrive. One day the FL heat may dry out a shallow water bowl and the next day that skink will be burrowing in mud because of the heavy rains. I can tell you that those skinks are probably healthier than the ones being kept in aquariums under pet store UV lights. It was probably not smart to make a Youtube video before he attended to the cages for the day but a dry, shallow water bowl outside in the FL sun is not a clear indication of neglect to me and I highly doubt those skinks are dehydrated.

 

[hissnthatexotics]

I guess I will say it. I completely agree with "Get Domes" comment. Your practice is fairly unethical. However that is not what the thread is about. Rian (UGR) has been one of my primary suppliers for years. I've never once had a problem with the animals (except one gecko that had a cut in which I was immediately given a credit). While I've dealt with a few employees who were rude the vast majority of the time my orders are handled well. I've spent nearly an hour on the phone with them perfecting orders and they never once got impatient. I was turned to these guys after spending thousands on crap that people flipped to me and died the next day. In my opinion UGs post was very professional and shouldnt spike any argument besides the fact that its not what you want/expect. You have a credit now so whats the big deal with post poning an order. Although no offense if your that concerned about having cash rather than credit its probably because ypu ran into a more profitable "flip".As far as a restocking fee...while I disagree with that I understand why. When using a digital system (like I do) to monitor reptile stock. It is annoying to have to replace that stock. Its even more annoying when customers cancel orders after dedicating time and energy. Furthermore everyone's experience is different but I love these guys. I made a trip to Florida this spring and was blown away by the professionalism at the shop, Mike and Pete are great guys and were fun as hell to talk to. So yes everyone should see all sides. So for anyone who notices this I have no relationship with anyone at UG besides business and I would recommend them to any of my friends looking for a supplier or even an individual new pet!
Regards,
Kyle

 

[hissnthatexotics]

Sorry my phone won't let me edit

By "your" I meant Joe.

 

[allreptiles1966]

I think that Underground Reptiles owes the OP a full refund based on what I've read but I think it's a little unfair to criticize husbandry based on this 4 year old video.
As someone who has raised reptiles outside in Florida, I will tell you that shallow water bowls like that can dry out in a day in August (when this video was made). I can also tell you that it rains just about every day in the late afternoon in the summer in FL.
If I could I would keep every reptile I had outdoors in the FL sun because they thrive. One day the FL heat may dry out a shallow water bowl and the next day that skink will be burrowing in mud because of the heavy rains. I can tell you that those skinks are probably healthier than the ones being kept in aquariums under pet store UV lights. It was probably not smart to make a Youtube video before he attended to the cages for the day but a dry, shallow water bowl outside in the FL sun is not a clear indication of neglect to me and I highly doubt those skinks are dehydrated.

Ok,I know this also. But I still would CLEAN my bowls regularly if needed! It's really that simple. Algae doesn't build like that in one day anywheres.

 

[gila7150]

Good point...I have to change mine frequently just to keep the mosquito larvae out. They probably don't harm anything but they still bother me to look at.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

As someone who has raised reptiles outside in Florida, I will tell you that shallow water bowls like that can dry out in a day in August (when this video was made). I can also tell you that it rains just about every day in the late afternoon in the summer in FL.
If I could I would keep every reptile I had outdoors in the FL sun because they thrive. One day the FL heat may dry out a shallow water bowl and the next day that skink will be burrowing in mud because of the heavy rains.

I agree with this from my own direct experiences in FL.

Ok,I know this also. But I still would CLEAN my bowls regularly if needed! It's really that simple. Algae doesn't build like that in one day anywheres.

Algae is not a negative thing to me. It is a nutrient sink (and producer). It does not appeal to some folks' aesthetic perspective, but this was not a series of display-geared setups.

I do not view the video, in terms of the setups shown, as negative.

 

[Redfeet]

Have to say there is a ton of off topic posting here. The simple fact in this matter is, businesses do not run for free and employees don't work for trident layers AND merchant accounts have fees for everything! His credit card company will most certainly retract payment and UG as most all real businesses have to stick with their terms or you will have people doing this daily. Whether 5 minutes or 5 hours were spent processing this order his employees are getting paid. It's unfortunate so much bashing comes out of completely legitimate practices. But as always you can not please everyone. I will say Underground is a great shop with a great staff. Hopefully people make their decisions from personal experience instead of what someone posts here! Last thing I want to point out is Drew was following policy as is part of his job responsibilities and if Rian attempts to contact you directly and you don't address it you obviously weren't too concerned in my opinion. So why come here now and complain and then throw accusations of a prior bad animal? Doesn't add up IMO!

 

[Lucille]

So why come here now

I think Underground should be delighted that the OP posted. This thread creates a 'bright line', underscoring that there are no refunds under any circumstances with this company and that they will stick to their TOS come hell or high water.
So customers seeking a little bit of flexibility for changing needs and circumstances, would do best to avoid doing business with Underground at all. Having a TOS is a good thing, finding a company that will waive their TOS for nominal incidents like this one is something to consider when looking for companies to do business with.

There are too many companies out there to bother Underground, and to bother with Underground, if they do not suit one's philosophy of doing business.

 

[Redfeet]

He offered a refund. He tried to contact him. He saw him in person after and he didn't even address it then. If he had talked to Rian personally maybe he would have made an exception... offered a discount on another purchase... who knows? If I feel someone owes me money I'm not sending texts or avoiding calls. I pick up the phone!

 

[Lucille]

all real businesses have to stick with their terms

If he had talked to Rian personally maybe he would have made an exception.

Are you saying that you think Underground is not a real business, or that contrary to you first post, you do in fact think it is OK for a business to be a little flexible depending on the situation?

 

[Redfeet]

Why don't you put the whole quote up there.. I was more than clear in my posts. Unsubscribing now!

 

[predators]

Have to say there is a ton of off topic posting here. The simple fact in this matter is, businesses do not run for free and employees don't work for trident layers AND merchant accounts have fees for everything! His credit card company will most certainly retract payment and UG as most all real businesses have to stick with their terms or you will have people doing this daily. Whether 5 minutes or 5 hours were spent processing this order his employees are getting paid. It's unfortunate so much bashing comes out of completely legitimate practices. But as always you can not please everyone. I will say Underground is a great shop with a great staff. Hopefully people make their decisions from personal experience instead of what someone posts here! Last thing I want to point out is Drew was following policy as is part of his job responsibilities and if Rian attempts to contact you directly and you don't address it you obviously weren't too concerned in my opinion. So why come here now and complain and then throw accusations of a prior bad animal? Doesn't add up IMO!

I am glad you have had good experiences with UG. You are lucky. I can tell you with certainty that under the TOS and rules associated with his merchant account he can not charge a restocking fee when nothing was restocked the animals were never shipped and the customer never picked them up. I guess we can debate whether it is ethical for UG to charge this customer 15% when no work was done and the customer cancelled the order 2 hours after placing it but, the fact is he can not charge this fee per his merchant account.

 

[Skinker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK_aCwwPUcY

Transcribed from the video starting at :54

I love these animals, that's why I do this. Nothing bothers us more at underground reptiles than having people on the internet and and any kind of board of inquiry or anything like that say we're just in it for the money..

I expected at least a hair flexibility from one who professes to be in it for the love.


Transcribed from video starting at 3:16

Now a lot of guys been asking what happened to our caiman lizard project. Happened was we had bought caiman lizards and um spent a lot of money on them when they first came in and then when the price seemed to crash on them financially it didn't seem to be the smartest thing. We're gonna start up our caiman lizard project again when the price bottoms out and then we could get new stock but a zoo came and offered us big money for our bigger adults and it was worth it - they were getting a good home.

The prices drop and you jump ship to wait for greener days. It sure seems to be about the money from my perspective.

Here is the TOS from underground reptiles. Anybody thinking of doing business should read this closely and expect no leniency in any circumstances. I personally drop out when a business uses carrier delays(about as lame as you can get) to avoid responsibility for DOA. Cut and pasted straight from their site at http://undergroundreptiles.com/terms-and-conditions/

*Note that your failure to read our terms and conditions, whether intentional or accidental will under no circumstances be reason to consider them altered or void.

* Underground Reptiles ships during the week Monday-Thursday with the exception of holidays.

* Underground Reptiles has a no refund policy for all retail and wholesale orders. However we will offer store credit.

* In some instances, if a refund is granted, a 15% restocking fee may apply.

* Underground Reptiles does not guarantee live arrival on inverts or amphibians.

* Underground Reptiles will do their best to sex your animal using our experience but we cannot guarantee the sex on any animal unless otherwise specified.

* Underground Reptiles ships Fed-Ex priority overnight. We do not ship venomous snakes via Fed-Ex. Please do not ask. Mammals are shipped airport to airport via commercial airlines according to IATA regulations. Airline rates do apply. There is sometimes an additional fee for boxing and/or health certificate.

* The buyer must be present to receive the package on the first delivery attempt or all guarantees are void.

* Live and visibly healthy arrival is only guaranteed when shipping temperatures at both ends are between 35° – 90°F for home delivery and 25F° – 99F° for having the animal shipped to a Fed-Ex facility for pick up. We will still guarantee the animal if you opt to have the package held at a Fed-Ex facility for pick up however the animal must be picked up within 4 hours of arrival at the Fed-Ex facility or all guarantees are void. Otherwise, we can hold the animal(s) at our facility until temperatures are safe for shipping.

* We are not responsible for carrier delays or mishandling resulting in DOA* animals.

* All animals have a live and healthy arrival guarantee. We cannot offer any guarantee after the arrival.

* We cannot be held responsible for shipping charges incurred for upholding our guarantee; they are the responsibility of you, the buyer. We do not offer credits or refunds on shipping for replacement animals.

* If the animal(s) is dead or not visibly healthy upon arrival the customer must notify Underground Reptiles of the deceased or unhealthy animal immediately upon receiving the animal(s). The arrival time will be determined by the tracking information Fed-Ex provides online of the delivery. If the first attempt of delivery is missed then all live and visibly health arrival guarantees are null and void. An email with a photo attached of the actual animal must be emailed within one hour of arrival or all guarantees are null and void.

* We reserve the right to refuse sale to any buyer, for any reason. Sorry, no sales to minors. Proof of age may be required at our discretion.

* Underground Reptiles is not responsible for any veterinary expenses or costs incurred by the buyer for any animal. If you take any animal to a veterinarian, you do so entirely at your own expense.

* Photos and requests: The animals pictured on our web site may or may not be the actual animal available. The photos do represent the species, and the health and quality of the animals we ship. We can send more pictures of any animal you are interested in by contacting us.

* Photos, descriptions and care sheets posted on our web site are the exclusive property of Underground Reptiles, and may not be used or reused without our specific, written permission.

* In accordance with FDA regulations, turtles and tortoises less than 4 inches listed on our web site are offered expressly for educational, scientific or export purposes only. They are not sold for use as pets.

* You can contact us either by phone (954-428-8005) or email ( [email protected]) If you have specific questions/requests, feel free to ask; we will respond accordingly. We can be reached Monday through Saturday from 11:00 AM – 8:00 PM.

* Please be aware of your own local wildlife laws and regulations. No shipments will be knowingly sent in violation of any state or federal laws. Please do not even ask.

* Underground Reptiles reserves the right to alter these terms and conditions at any time and in its sole discretion.

*DOA = Dead on Arrival

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

What I am about to type is for clarity and it is not intended for the purpose of offering defense.

He took issue with other parties saying he is "just" (as in only) in it for the money. That does not mean decisions cannot be based on the financial result while also being motivated by what is being labeled as "love" or whatever one wants to call the feeling of exuberant interest.

A lot of people who are simply poor at business performance will talk up the "love", too, as an excuse for that poor performance as a self-soothing type of self-delusion.

Operating for multiple simultaneous goals is not impossible (or even unlikely if strategies are sound along with a commitment to the execution of said strategies). A chef may love to cook and also probably wants to be compensated well for his cooking. If it was purely for the love of his art, he could offer a cost-effective down-scale-ingredient version at a soup kitchen. One can love what one does and still seek to obtain maximal value for the product of that very work that one loves.

Work versus love as an argument's basis is, at least some of the time, simply a false dichotomy.

 

[Skinker]

Operating for multiple simultaneous goals is not impossible (or even unlikely if strategies are sound along with a commitment to the execution of said strategies). A chef may love to cook and also probably wants to be compensated well for his cooking. If it was purely for the love of his art, he could offer a cost-effective down-scale-ingredient version at a soup kitchen. One can love what one does and still seek to obtain maximal value for the product of that very work that one loves.

Fair enough but I doubt your hypothetical chef would let the cost of ingredients dictate their menu. More than likely they'd work with what moves them and adjust prices accordingly. It just seems to me from the way UGR treats dissatisfied customers that their love for making money will always trump their love for reptiles and fellow enthusiasts. I guess that's what it takes to run a successful reptile business.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Fair enough but I doubt your hypothetical chef would let the cost of ingredients dictate their menu. More than likely they'd work with what moves them and adjust prices accordingly. It just seems to me from the way UGR treats dissatisfied customers that their love for making money will always trump their love for reptiles and fellow enthusiasts. I guess that's what it takes to run a successful reptile business.

I doubt he would hypothetically serve lobster in a soup kitchen scenario. Even if moving to slipper lobster or crayfish, the cost would be unjustifiable under typical circumstances. Therefore, the dish would be abandoned. Additionally, while I must admit my ignorance of soup kitchen dynamics, I was not aware there are prices to adjust as much as there are costs to manage when planning a menu for that context. If you were walking that analogy down an intermediate path to get the chef to a less expensive restaurant, then there is still a limit to equivalence when adjusting prices. There is a limit to price-cutting until certain ingredients cannot be afforded to still create the equivalent meal.

I cannot say what ratio of love for animals versus love for money exists for Rian, but I can go by his words and his words translate into not just one being at play. Whatever that ratio is, it is irrelevant to the thread's complaint.

I guess my point was missed since the default to using a false dichotomy (the trumping of one aspect by another being mandatory for success in your guess) just occurred regardless of them not being mutually exclusive principles.