Easy to find information is pissing me off

[Seamus Haley]

Easy to find information is pissing me right the hell off.

More specifically, the ease with which information can be attained is having side effects that are making me want to strangle someone.

Anyone with an internet connection can go out onto a search engine and find a page that will tell them how to keep a lot of animals alive... and further, how to get them to reproduce. An easy to follow set of simple instructions, with as much depth and subtlety involved in a lot of them as you would find on a bag of microwave popcorn.

Any jackass can get leopard geckos, bearded dragons, corn snakes, california king snakes, ball pythons and boa constrictors to breed. Really, the physical mechanics of it are such that a half-literate imbecile can manage to get their animals to reproduce.

Problem is... most of them don't do it well or do it right.

Those "E-Z" instructions never stop to address any of the specifics involved in WHY a certain step is taken, what's going on physiologically or genetically... Sure, a junior high biology course covers it all, so anyone with a high school diploma should know this stuff but so very many seem to be oblivious.

Even worse, very few of those sources of information ever stop to discuss the responsibilities or ethics involved. They're so single minded about the HOW that they completely skip the WHY and the SHOULD portions.

The results?

Idiots who don't understand mendelian genetics that end up misrepresenting their animals- but don't anyone dare call them out on it... the idiot is a BREEDER and they resent the implication that they're a drooling moron.

Animals so far removed from any kind of selective breeding process that some of these color and pattern mutations have become almost unrecognizable relative to the good examples... The ball folks know what I am talking about here, with "Pastels" being sold all over the place that aren't any damn different than any normal found in petcos all over the country.

Every single weird colored scale is being labeled and passed off as a new morph, before anything is proven out, before the transmission is understood or even explored, before it's even determined that it's going to stay past the next shed.

Even worse, the message boards get flooded with post after post after mind numbing godforsaken post titled "What morph is this?" that then contains perfect examples of phenotypical normalcy.



People these days have no appreciation for information, no respect for the process of learning, knowing and understanding. Everything they want to know is a goddamn google search away, always available and always regarded as accurate. They don't earn anything they think they know- they just steal it from someone else who did the work of finding out. The result is that they don't value knowledge, they have no respect for understanding something completely and thoroughly, they just want the short, fast answer and it sickens me.

To anyone reading this... if you're breeding animals and don't know what a zygote is- go to hell. If you're breeding morphs and can't make a punnet square- go to hell. If you're selling animals as heterozygous and have no idea what an allele is- go to hell. You're the kind of worthless scum sucking garbage who's dumbing down my hobby and I utterly hate you for it, you loathsome, useless pile of crap.

 

[Twizted Paths]

Does this mean you don't want to buy a pair of my het for hypo boas? I know they don't have that spiffy abberancy the dam had but I'm sure it's just recessive

You forgot the part about where they whine when nobody wants to pay top dollar for their substandard babies.

 

[jenneses]

To anyone reading this... if you're breeding animals and don't know what a zygote is- go to hell. If you're breeding morphs and can't make a punnet square- go to hell. If you're selling animals as heterozygous and have no idea what an allele is- go to hell. You're the kind of worthless scum sucking garbage who's dumbing down my hobby and I utterly hate you for it, you loathsome, useless pile of crap.

But... I can't draw a straight line, how am I supposed to draw a square? It's not fair! And EVERYONE knows a zygote is a goat from Africa, duh.

 

[TheFragginDragon]

Reminds me of an exchange in a certain Michael Crichton book. Good post Seamus, I do understand where you are coming from....

 

[shrap]

It is ok Seamus, there are plenty of people that utterly hate you, you loathsome, useless pile of crap. But allow me to add arrogant, self absorbed and pretentious. Not to mention down right rude and down right disrespectful. It is people like you that the world would be better off without.

 

[Lucille]

People these days have no appreciation for information, no respect for the process of learning, knowing and understanding. Everything they want to know is a goddamn google search away, always available and always regarded as accurate. They don't earn anything they think they know- they just steal it from someone else who did the work of finding out. The result is that they don't value knowledge, they have no respect for understanding something completely and thoroughly, they just want the short, fast answer and it sickens me.

I agree that some are like this, but there ARE some that take the time to study and think. For those that put time and effort into understanding, you are a credit to any industry/hobby you are a part of.


The problem with easy info is that it gets passed around, someone reads something and takes it as gospel, and the next time it comes up, the info gets regurgitated. If someone asks why, they are simply given a hard time, because the regurgitater doesn't know why. And then the info gets misused because it is not well understood.

Seamus, I don't think the ease of acquisition is necessarily the problem. To me, there's no question that publishing info widely is critically valuable. I think the problem is subsequent to acquisition, when those who read should take the time and trust themselves to do some critical thinking, and put in the effort and additional research to really understand what they are reading.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

The instant that information was able to be recorded, this problem existed.
With a person that you ask face to face, that expert can make sure all the important bits are passed on. There were still non-experts posing as such, but it was not as widespread, and the blame would be totally on the non-experts for misrepresenting themselves.
With the advent of books, and the internet now, anyone can look up the information, take only bits and pieces that make sense to them NOW, and run with it, making up the rest as they go. Since parts don't make sense to them, they skip it, rather than take the time to understand the whole picture.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

i think you need to address your rant at people that refuse to learn, and not people that are learning, and breeding and learn by doing. Such as myself.

Do i know what a zygote is NOPE. Ill go "Google it" now though. But you know what, at least i try to understand, and constantly ask questions.

Alright rant.... because i think people should think before they breed.... horrible direction though.

 

[jglass38]

It is ok Seamus, there are plenty of people that utterly hate you, you loathsome, useless pile of crap. But allow me to add arrogant, self absorbed and pretentious. Not to mention down right rude and down right disrespectful. It is people like you that the world would be better off without.

Quote of the year?

 

[stargazer]

It is ok Seamus, there are plenty of people that utterly hate you, you loathsome, useless pile of crap. But allow me to add arrogant, self absorbed and pretentious. Not to mention down right rude and down right disrespectful. It is people like you that the world would be better off without.

Rock On!!!!!

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

I am not gonna lie. I do not quite know all the in depth technical terms and such. But I don't just throw any animal together that I can in hopes of making money.

I also understood from day one, the concept of quality. I have had snakes for about 10 years now, and was only recently I decided to start "breeding"

I had very little money, which meant.. something less expensive. Big shock, I decided on a pastel to be my first morph.

I saved up, and actually made PAYMENTS on a VERY nice male pastel. Yes.. payments on a pastel. and when I produced some unique babies. I sold those babies to friends only, specifically to help PROVE those genetics, BEFORE I label them as anything other then a nice normal.

anywho. not ALL noobs suck. some of us DO care about QUALITY.

And its not just the newbies either. How many of the bigger breeders/sellers sell CH snakes as morphs for big bucks, and imply that they are CERTAINLY genetic etc.

Mostly ... I do agree with your post Seamus.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Reminds me of an exchange in a certain Michael Crichton book. Good post Seamus, I do understand where you are coming from....

I think I actually hijacked the quote and used it in a previous thread where this came up- Standing on the shoulders of giants and making lunchboxes kind of deal.

This one was substantially less elegant and stuck in this specific forum as a result of an immediate flare-up of anger at a know-nothing "breeder" who has apparently been selling possible hets as simply "hets" for some time now. 'cause they were too quick to follow their e-z-bake breeding instructions and produce eggs before they knew what they were actually doing- further, they have been breeding for at least a few years and never seemed to take the initiative to learn anything past that initial stage. Thedy got the eggs they wanted out of it, everyone and everything else be damned.

It is ok Seamus, there are plenty of people that utterly hate you, you loathsome, useless pile of crap. But allow me to add arrogant, self absorbed and pretentious. Not to mention down right rude and down right disrespectful. It is people like you that the world would be better off without.

There are plenty of people who hate me, generally as a direct result of my kicking their intellectual asses up and down the street when they were clearly wrong about something.

Or when I did the same to their "expert" buddy, eh Sammy?

It's not arrogance to have standards that I strive towards or to expect others to attempt the same. Stupidity born of ignorance that a person isn't laboring to change is a disgusting thing, that abject apathy and that contentment with mediocrity... it's stagnation and it's not good for the species.

I suppose I am frequently disrespectful, when confronted with something or someone I have no respect for. Quite the opposite is true when I see something worthwhile. You probably just don't see that positive part, since you don't qualify.

I agree that some are like this, but there ARE some that take the time to study and think. For those that put time and effort into understanding, you are a credit to any industry/hobby you are a part of.

There are, yes. Quite a lot of them actually, although I wouldn't want to hazard a guess about any percentages, being a bit of a pessimist.

It's the sound off forum though and more than one example of short sighted ignorance had been crawling up under my skin lately. Dumb errors, stupid mistakes, ignorant actions- things that could all have been prevented if the people involved had just taken some time to gather some complete understanding before they went ahead and injured animals or ripped off customers.

Am I even allowed to compliment the folks who deserve it in this subforum? It's opposite number doesn't really seem to exist... some kind of "Singing Praise" forum where I can show my gratitude to the people who take their time and put in their effort to do things the right way.

Seamus, I don't think the ease of acquisition is necessarily the problem. To me, there's no question that publishing info widely is critically valuable. I think the problem is subsequent to acquisition, when those who read should take the time and trust themselves to do some critical thinking, and put in the effort and additional research to really understand what they are reading.

I'll propose a slight compromise.

Obviously, I can't deny that there's a big problem with the mindset of the people involved. The people decide not to pursue a better understanding of the subject, content to stop with the bare minimum necessary for their current goal.

The ease of spreading and obtaining information has facilitated this mindset though.

The spreading part because... well, really, anyone can knock together a web page and suddenly become an informational resource for someone else. That was not the case in the past, where even the easiest and most casual methods of being published had some form of editorial oversight. It obviously wasn't a perfect screening process and was sometimes inhibited by the technology of the time in verifying accuracy... but it was another brain that had some degree of qualification going over the material being presented and then approving or rejecting it. Journals and newsletters had peer reviews and rebuttals, book publications had editors and fact checkers, even herpetological society newsletters had someone at the helm who could spot the more egregious and flagrant problems.

The web has nobody. There's nobody anywhere who has the ability to read a web page, decide it's a load of nonsense and then have it corrected or removed. So bad information, inaccurate information, half-truths and situational facts just float around free to be absorbed by the masses who initially don't know any better... and often don't seem to care about getting to a place where they might have a B.S. detector.

There also seems to be very little emphasis placed on the WHY and the SHOULD parts by a lot of people, including those who are factually accurate and credible. Toss a term like "snake breeding" into a search engine and you'll get hundred- thousands of pages that will cover seasonal cycling and incubation and maternal nutrition and gender determination... a very very small percentage of those then go on to discuss selective breeding, the ethics of producing an animal, the idea of culling, locating an outlet for the sale of the offspring. Lots of how, very little why and even less should and should not.

The instant that information was able to be recorded, this problem existed.
With a person that you ask face to face, that expert can make sure all the important bits are passed on. There were still non-experts posing as such, but it was not as widespread, and the blame would be totally on the non-experts for misrepresenting themselves.
With the advent of books, and the internet now, anyone can look up the information, take only bits and pieces that make sense to them NOW, and run with it, making up the rest as they go. Since parts don't make sense to them, they skip it, rather than take the time to understand the whole picture.

Exactly. I'll go a step further and say that the rate of... decay... has increased substantially with the internet. Even outside of the idea that publication through a print medium was more difficult, the effort of obtaining information from a print medium was, while marginal, at least present. A person had to buy a book, sign up for a journal or make a trip to the library. There was some modicum of personal effort involved that would then prompt a decision to absorb and comprehend all the information then available to them. Otherwise they'd need to buy another book or make another trip to the library- there was value placed on what was available and it was more eagerly and more completely absorbed.

Search engines require almost no effort. The person already had the internet access, it's right there and it's assumed it'll always be there. They can look up what temperature they should incubate eggs at now and then they can worry about what to do with the babies later. After all, the internet will be there with answers when the time comes.

i think you need to address your rant at people that refuse to learn, and not people that are learning, and breeding and learn by doing. Such as myself.

I did.

Alicia, I have never seen you ask a question or request some information on a subject where you haven't wanted the whole answer. I have seen you sit through two hour long lecture/discussions about a topic that drifted and went far deeper than the simple answer, because YOU kept asking the followups, kept wanting clarification, kept looking for the entire thing so that you intrinsically understood it.

Don't personalize my generalizations unless they actually apply to you. This one didn't.

Do i know what a zygote is NOPE. Ill go "Google it" now though.

And, given your attitude, I suspect that if you did google it, you now have a thorough understanding of the stages of cellular division that occur with sexually reproducing species.

Most people would stop at "ah, a sciency breeding thing"

 

[WebSlave]

I hate to be blunt, but this interpersonal sniping BS on this site IS going to come to an end. I personally don't give a crap about who doesn't like who and I don't want my site used for those kinds of purely personal issues. If you want to make a public spectacle of your personal likes and dislikes towards another person, then take it somewhere else where people may actually give a crap about your opinion concerning someone else.

I'm even going to cut this out of the HELL forum as I'm just getting REAL tired of seeing it. I will be increasing the infraction points so that people who engage in this sort of crap will get themselves tossed out the door more quickly than is now the case.

I'm pretty damned sure I'm not alone in feeling this way about this.

 

[shrap]

I hate to be blunt, but this interpersonal sniping BS on this site IS going to come to an end. I personally don't give a crap about who doesn't like who and I don't want my site used for those kinds of purely personal issues. If you want to make a public spectacle of your personal likes and dislikes towards another person, then take it somewhere else where people may actually give a crap about your opinion concerning someone else.

I'm even going to cut this out of the HELL forum as I'm just getting REAL tired of seeing it. I will be increasing the infraction points so that people who engage in this sort of crap will get themselves tossed out the door more quickly than is now the case.

I'm pretty damned sure I'm not alone in feeling this way about this.

Sorry Boss, it was not my intention to cause you any headaches or be a distraction from what your goals are here at Fauna. Again, my apologies.

 

[WebSlave]

Apology accepted, Sammy. You were just the straw that broke the camel's back. Either I have gotten less tolerant of it, or it's been building up gradually and finally got to the point where I have had enough.

 

[Twizted Paths]

All joking aside- I love my boas and I'm not trying to just throw any bunch of 'butt uglies' together, buying sibling pairs to bred to each other,power feeding or trying to breed my females as soon as they're almost barely if I can stretch it big enough, buying a bunch of one eye kinked half price specials, to try to make a quick buck. They might not all be priced through the roof but in my eyes my boas are gorgeous. I don't own a single one where I'd be embarrassed to say This is Mine, they are my pride & joy. When I do breed I won't just be dumping a bunch of substandard garbage into the market I will be putting a piece of myself out there in public for all to see and judge.

I read up & study both books and online, I talk to the people I buy from and try to absorb as much information as I can. If I see something awesome at a show I try to talk to them and find out as much as I can, even when it means standing around in a crowded area getting jostled and having a nicotine fit so they can deal with other people. Even if they're talking about something I think I know, because something I don't know might come up or an entirely different light might be thrown on it. I look at what other people are doing and what they're doing it with, I try to find out the why of it ,I check back for the results. When somebody gets flamed for screwing up I go check them out so I can learn what not to do.

Do I completely understand all the genetic terms & how they relate to all of the different morphs? No. Do I have a strong basic grasp? Yes. Is it hard to learn all the subtleties? Hell yes. That's what makes the thought of breeding so appealing to me- not the money- the never ending challenge of learning everything I can about a species I love.

I know this sound off was not directed at me personally & I do agree that there's a lot of half wit idiots setting our hobby/business back. I am doing my best not to be one of them.

If you want to send me a list of books, sites,articles whatever point me in the right direction and I'm on it. If I ask a question don't jump me, answer it or ignore me. If I say something and you think it's wrong don't jump all over me, tell me why I'm wrong (& where you got your info from). I will learn. We are not all money hungry morons.

As for people selling poss hets as hets, if the BUYERS would ask the right questions they wouldn't get screwed. If you're not breeding you don't need a het,if you are breeding then the least you should know is what makes what! Let them sell to each other, it leaves more smokin' hotties for me!

 

[DAND]

Well the Earth may stand still for a few moments but I will have to agree with Seamus. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen what he is speaking of first hand at shows. Vendors ("breeders") who have absolutely no place selling animals let alone giving out advice. I've pissed off many a vendor after correcting them (of course in front the customer ) after hearing the idiocy they are passing on.

Just yesterday I had a attendee of the show say they had never been to a show and that this was great being able to talk to vendors and get some straight information since you can do a search for a certain animal's care and get multiple differing answers. Of course we all know there are number of vendors who have no place giving out any advice.

While I am not a know-it-all on all subjects or animals I do know quite a bit. If there is something I am not certain of I will find someone who does so as to not perpetuate the circle of ignorance. The number of people who are referred to me by other vendors actually surprises me. I spend a larger portion of my day at the show talking to people who need advice or information about an animal they have just or are interested in purchasing. What I can't understand is they don't ask the vendor they purchased the animal(s) from they come to me. While I don't have a problem helping these people out I do have a problem with the idiots passing out bad info or selling animals that they have absolutely zero knowledge of. I'm sorry, but if I have it on my table I will know the proper way to keep it, where it came from and (here is the real tough one) even it's sex. Yes, there is my big bitch, the idiots who are selling animals and have no idea what the sex of the animal is. Then who do they come to sex the animal(s), yep, me. I'm getting crapped on by a snake at least once a show due to sexing an animal that someone just had or is interested in purchasing from another vendor.

Unfortunately the seemingly vast number of people who are in this business/hobby/industry who haven't the common sense of a turnip will remain. Make the quick buck and what the ....? One goes and two will take their place.

 

[Uroboros]

So, perhaps it's not the "Easy to Find Information" that is so bad (I tend to like it quite a lot, myself, google is my bff). It's the dingbats that don't use it. Or worse yet, know just enough to be dangerous.

Anyone that uses the internet should know by now that the first thing you read on it is not to be taken as gospel. It's why lawyers invented the term "Due Diligence".

 

[h3llc4t]

There is some good to be said for asking for confirmation on a morph after doing research on their own. I'd rather field a "Hey, is this a ______?" question than see someone selling an animal with a particular name just because that's what they were told that's what it was. No one is an expert out of the gate and a little reassurance goes a long way for someone who is trying to take full responsibility in regards to an animal.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

"The internet is just a really big, really disorganized library, where most of the books are written by idiots and liars. -bmezine.com"

When we are no longer willing to learn, we no longer grow. I know there's a *lot* I still need to learn and I'm glad there are people involved in this hobby/(business) that will share their first hand experiences. It is disheartening to see all the misinformation out there and more so, the people that take it as fact, run with it and never look back. I bet most of those types of people are not reading this thread. heh