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Ed Clark,don't buy frogs from him!

K412 said:
I cannot say with 100% certainty that he knew the frog was ill.
Now that I am aware of his reputation combined with the fact that he stated on more than one occasion it was without a doubt male, he chose a lethargic female to send instead of the one that he initially picked out for me in June.
That is purely a guess based on his reputation.
I "met" him on fatfrogs. Purchasing a frog from him was the first online purchase of an animal that I have ever made.
I had no knowledge that this forum existed until it was pionted out to me by another membr of fatfrogs. Then the pm's started rolling about his business practices.
I hold him accountable because he had stated on tttf in reference to another dissatisfied customer that if an acute death took place and was not the customers fault that he would honor his guarantee.
Whether he does or not is not the point. I don't want another animal to die.
Click to expand...

Everything you are saying is just pure speculation! I understand that Ed doesn't have the best of reputations, I personally have had nothing to do with him so I have no idea. But this is all speculative.

Plus, I know what the necropsy has stated, but how accurate is it? It was performed weeks after it died, after it was shipped across the country, and after another vet had initially inspected it.
 
Plus, he may have stated those terms for another customer (in a public forum's thread of all ridiculous and non-binding places), but those were not the terms that he agreed to with you.
 
jayefbe said:
Everything you are saying is just pure speculation! I understand that Ed doesn't have the best of reputations, I personally have had nothing to do with him so I have no idea. But this is all speculative.

Plus, I know what the necropsy has stated, but how accurate is it? It was performed weeks after it died, after it was shipped across the country, and after another vet had initially inspected it.
Click to expand...
Which is why I stated it was a guess based on his reputation and nothing that I can say with certainty. I was responding to someone else's statement.
The necropsy is accurate. It was not performed weeks after the death. The initial one that my Vet performed was within appropriate time constraints and her recommendation to have a Pathologist do a more comprehensive one was warranted. Her remains were preserved in formalin for the Pathologist in order to be shipped.
 
jayefbe said:
Plus, he may have stated those terms for another customer (in a public forum's thread of all ridiculous and non-binding places), but those were not the terms that he agreed to with you.
Click to expand...

I am aware of that. It was not a part of a contractual aggreement between us specifically.
Just because it's the moral thing to do doesn't mean that it will be done.
Am I questioning his morals and integrity? Absolutley.
Do I have the right to? As a dissatisfied customer, surely.
 
K412 said:
Which is why I stated it was a guess based on his reputation and nothing that I can say with certainty. I was responding to someone else's statement.
The necropsy is accurate. It was not performed weeks after the death. The initial one that my Vet performed was within appropriate time constraints and her recommendation to have a Pathologist do a more comprehensive one was warranted. Her remains were preserved in formalin for the Pathologist in order to be shipped.
Click to expand...

I still don't understand why the necropsy including mentions of skin ulcerations that weren't seen on the animal beforehand.
 
jayefbe said:
I still don't understand why the necropsy including mentions of skin ulcerations that weren't seen on the animal beforehand.
Click to expand...
Probably because they were not visible to the naked eye. If they were on her ventral side only as someone had stated before I would not have seen it because I did not handle her excessively. By that I mean flipping her over and looking at her belly.
 
K412 said:
I am aware of that. It was not a part of a contractual aggreement between us specifically.
Just because it's the moral thing to do doesn't mean that it will be done.
Am I questioning his morals and integrity? Absolutley.
Do I have the right to? As a dissatisfied customer, surely.
Click to expand...

He's running a business, and it appears as though he's followed his terms of service to the T. He replaced a DOA and was willing to eat the shipping charges. The animal appeared healthy at arrival, and short of your after the fact belief that he picked a lethargic animal, even you were happy with the frog when it first arrived. It seems, at the very least, that it is highly unlikely that he knowingly shipped a sick frog. Compounded with the apparent problems with your cage setup, I don't see why he should be to blame for this. When you agree to purchase an animal it comes with risks, and unfortunately (whether or not it is a fault of your own), you drew the short straw. But to pin the blame on Ed in this instance seems to be fairly farfetched.
 
Another thing about the cage set-up: you stated that the wet paper towels were only due to the fact that you spilled water when placing the frog in the cage, and later you replaced them. Why is it that that in the photo of the deceased frog the paper towels appear to be thoroughly drenched?
 
K412 said:
Probably because they were not visible to the naked eye. If they were on her ventral side only as someone had stated before I would not have seen it because I did not handle her excessively. By that I mean flipping her over and looking at her belly.
Click to expand...

You're arguing that he knowingly shipped a sick frog, but you then point out how difficult it is to know if a frog is sick in the first place.
 
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From: k412
To: ed clark
Posted: 2 Aug 14, 2008 10:17 pm
Subject: I'm sorry Ed. I'm a shitty keeper.


I went to check on him after I put the crickets in and he was behind the rock thing dead in the corner. I had totally left him alone but I guess I stressed the shit out of him the first day. There was a milky fluid between his body and what looked like a shed. The yellow tinges weren't visible I only saw them in the pictures.
I'm not going to keep frogs anymore I PROMISE. I can't tell you how sorry I am that I killed your pretty frog. I am sorry that I wasted his life and your time. Rest assured it won't happen again, I probably won't even keep the ones I have. I'm not meant to keep them I guess.
I'm not gonna be on this forum anymore either. I'm too embarrassed and there are a few members here who would think it was funny. Please don't be angry with me but if you are I totally understand.

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jayefbe said:
He's running a business, and it appears as though he's followed his terms of service to the T. He replaced a DOA and was willing to eat the shipping charges. The animal appeared healthy at arrival, and short of your after the fact belief that he picked a lethargic animal, even you were happy with the frog when it first arrived. It seems, at the very least, that it is highly unlikely that he knowingly shipped a sick frog. Compounded with the apparent problems with your cage setup, I don't see why he should be to blame for this. When you agree to purchase an animal it comes with risks, and unfortunately (whether or not it is a fault of your own), you drew the short straw. But to pin the blame on Ed in this instance seems to be fairly farfetched.
Click to expand...
I'm not questioning whether he knew in advance that the frog was ill I'm just stating that it was. If this happened because of a bacteria that when induced by stress such as shipping kills the frog other customers need to know. If this frog had it the other frogs do as well.
That is the point of this forum right? To be used as a reference when one is considering purchasing an animal from a broker?
Maybe it seems farfetched to you but it's a reality for me.
 
jayefbe said:
Another thing about the cage set-up: you stated that the wet paper towels were only due to the fact that you spilled water when placing the frog in the cage, and later you replaced them. Why is it that that in the photo of the deceased frog the paper towels appear to be thoroughly drenched?
Click to expand...
I can't answer that. They were not drenched only damp. The flash maybe? The picture shows the loose skin/shed rests and the reddish blotch on her back. She was in the corner behind the rockpile thing when I found her.
An excess of humidity which is not the case here anyway would not kill a frog in one day.
I have one statement to make here and it's that the frog he sold me was sick.
 
I just can't help but think that you're stretching the truth a little bit in regards to the whole cage thing. Every single picture of the cage has soaked paper towels. Pictures with no frog, with frog, and then with the dead frog. I know that excess humidity could not have killed the frog in a day, but under the circumstances, it's not fair to just put all the blame on Ed.
 
Ed Clark said:
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From: k412
To: ed clark
Posted: 2 Aug 14, 2008 10:17 pm
Subject: I'm sorry Ed. I'm a shitty keeper.


I went to check on him after I put the crickets in and he was behind the rock thing dead in the corner. I had totally left him alone but I guess I stressed the shit out of him the first day. There was a milky fluid between his body and what looked like a shed. The yellow tinges weren't visible I only saw them in the pictures.
I'm not going to keep frogs anymore I PROMISE. I can't tell you how sorry I am that I killed your pretty frog. I am sorry that I wasted his life and your time. Rest assured it won't happen again, I probably won't even keep the ones I have. I'm not meant to keep them I guess.
I'm not gonna be on this forum anymore either. I'm too embarrassed and there are a few members here who would think it was funny. Please don't be angry with me but if you are I totally understand.

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Click to expand...
I have already stated that I was very upset when I found her deceased. After I put her in the refrigerator I went to the computer and sent this to Ed.
I do not deny that I sent this at all.
Ed, did you see the post where I copied your pm's in return? You did not blame me then. You ignored my many attempts to contact you until I posted the situation here.
While you're here can you clear up a speculation that I have?
Did you keep the male that you liked so much and send me a different frog than the one I was promised? If so, did you send one that was hanging out on the bottom and not looking well?
 
jayefbe said:
I just can't help but think that you're stretching the truth a little bit in regards to the whole cage thing. Every single picture of the cage has soaked paper towels. Pictures with no frog, with frog, and then with the dead frog. I know that excess humidity could not have killed the frog in a day, but under the circumstances, it's not fair to just put all the blame on Ed.
Click to expand...
I never took pictures without the frog in there. The picture of the entire cage was taken with her in it. She was behind the rockpile thing in the lefthand corner. That is where she stayed until she died.
I am not stretching the truth. I have no reason to. There is nothing in this for me other than to let people know that I bought a sick frog from Ed Clark.
All of the pictures were taken in the same hour.
The first ones that I took were of her in the water bowl soaking. The second is when I put her on the shelf to warm up. I left her alone for no more than 45 minutes while I took a bath and came back into my room. That is when I took the picture of the whole tank. She was in the corner behind the rockpile.
I removed the soaked paper towels after my shower when I was clean. I did wash my hands after I cut the box open before I removed her from the deli cup. I know to wash my hands before and after handling my frogs. I know that is the order that I did things because I threw out those paper towels along with the trash from my bathroom and bedroom and continued on with my day.
 
Does anyone know how fast bacteria can build up in a dead and decomposing frog in 90* plus heat?

The frog I gave to Kelly as a replacement was the only one I had left and it was one I was going to keep for myself, it was flawless and perfect.

I wanted her to have something nice, she did not have the knowledge to provide proper care and it died.
 
Ed Clark said:
Does anyone know how fast bacteria can build up in a dead and decomposing frog in 90* plus heat?

The frog I gave to Kelly as a replacement was the only one I had left and it was one I was going to keep for myself, it was flawless and perfect.

I wanted her to have something nice, she did not have the knowledge to provide proper care and it died.
Click to expand...

How could bacteria build up in a dead and decomposing frog that was refirgerated in such a short period of time after it dies? My fridge is pretty cold Ed. Lettuce freezes if I put it in the bottom drawer.
If it was the only one that you had left how did you post this?
http://fatfrogs.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=7058
This was on August 15, 2008. Look at the dates Ed. It doesn't mesh with what you're saying at all. How did you take pictures of frogs that you didn't have?
I sent lots of pm's to you beginning in June when you offered me the frog. I sent lots of pm's to Lars and ILOVEGREEN mostly about taking care of them months before I got her from you and they are both very knowledgable and gave me great advice. Big question now is if it was the only one that you had left than surely you knew it was a female right? Why say time and again that it was male?
 
Actually Ed, third post down you say that at times you have into the 100's of these frogs.
August 29, 2008 you posted 2 more pictures of different aussies in that thread.
 
Frogs don't... hide illnesses, as a rule. An active infection that's damaging the heath of the animal is pretty apparant in a very short time frame. I have no idea where this "they hide illnesses" stuff is coming from but it's blatantly untrue.

The stress placed on an animal by the shipping process and whatever handling or environmental conditions it is experiencing can cause a relatively passive bacteria load to turn into something more agressive and unchecked, but this would not have been apparant to Ed at the time of shipping and the frog would not be visibly sick.

Tissue breakdown in amphibians is extremely rapid after death, a necropsy isn't worthless but it is certainly worth less than it is for other types of animals. Inherently predisposed towards being less accurate to begin with, the second round of shipping and unknown timelines and conditions make the validity of firm conclusions questionable.

Humidity is water that is present in vapor form in the air. It is possible for an enclosure to be wet- covered in liquid- but still not humid. One does naturally link to the other but they are not automatically mutually inclusive, it's just very probable that the humidity was above the normal range for keeping the species. That said, soaking wet is worse than too humid when it comes to bacterial blooms, fungal growth, a reabsorbtion of waste matter through the skin, the spreading of various household chemical toxins and so on.

While it's not as good as a firsthand inspection, she looks to be in decent health from what was photographed in the shots upon arrival. Timpanic roll is within a healthy range, not obese but far from underweight, no discoloration or heavy sloughing of the waxy cuticle, clean clear eyes, nose and mouth, no visible abrasions, normal posture and body position for a whites that's awake and horizontal.

I wish there was a copy regarding how you inquired about the gender- the wording of Ed's PMed response seems to indicate that it was a response to a question and he qualified his answer with the reasoning behind the determination. The females very, very rarely call and it's widely considered to be an acceptabally accurate (while falling lower than 100%) method of casual sexing for the species.

Out of curiosity, how many frogs have died under the care of the thread starter out of how many owned? Which species have died, after how long and in what conditions?
 
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