K412
New member
I got an Aussie Whites tree frog from Ed Clark on August 13, 2008. She died the next day. When I asked him about a refund he stated that he guaranteed live arrival only. I had a necropsy done, the results of which I will post below.
The frog died from bacterial septicemia. I am contacting the Pathologist to culture the bacteria. I have made several attempts to contact him and he has recieved my messages but will not respond. I offered him the opportunity to rectify the situation prior to my posting anything about it and he is not inclined to do so.
I did alot of research prior to the frog's arrival. I read many care sheets and got advice from other keepers. I was waiting on my porch for the frog and put her directly into a room temp dechlorinated soak. I took a couple pictures of her and left her alone to settle in. The temps were at the mid 80's on top of the terrarrium and mid 70's on the bottom. Humidity was 60%. She never ate it the 24 hours that I had her. The enclosure and it's contents were sterilized in a 10% bleach solution and rinsed and dried correctly. The enclosure aired out for 48 hours so there was no bleach odor. Paper towels for substrate to monitor excrement and maintain a sterile enviornment. I was told many times that this frog was a male but she was full of eggs at 2 1/2 svl.
This was her enclosure
This is her the day after I got her
This is a copy of an email that I sent to Ed Clark on Friday August 29, 2008.
Ed,
I submitted the remains of the Aussie whites tree frog that I got from you on the 13th of August. The one that died on the 14th. It was in fact a female as she had a large amount of eggs and not a male as I was told by you prior to the shipping. The necropsy was performed by Drury R. Reavill,DVM of the zoo/exotic pathology service in West Sacramento,CA
The results are as follows;
Kidney- The kidney is moderatly autolyzed. There are numerous small thin bacteria which are proliferating throughout the renal sections. Moderate numbers of them are confined to the capillary loops of the glomeruli although aggregates are also present within the interstitium
Spleen- moderately to severely autolyzed. It is also congested. The previously described bacteria can be identified with macrophages of the spleen. These are small punctate to short rod-shaped structures recognized within the cytoplasm.
Pancreas- severely autolyzed
Intestines- severely autolyzed
Possible Stomach- severely autolyzed
Lung- There are bacteria recognized within the capillaries of the faveoli.
Liver- mild multifocal areas of acute necrosis with fibrin deposition and the previously described bacteria. Granulocytic leukocytes are also identified although these are rare in number. The Liver is moderatly autolyzed.
Heart- The epicardium of the heart is supporting large numbers of the previously described bacteria.
Coelomic cavity fat pads- The previously described bacteria can be identified within some of the vascular spaces of the fat pads.
Skin- There are sections of the skin where there is extensive loss of the epithelium and large numbers of bacteria are proliferating throughout the areas with the epithelium as well as into the superficial dermis. There is also the subdermal lymph vessels and sacs containing the previously described bacteria and some cellular debris. Multifocally the epithelium is supporting an increased cellularity in areas where there is cell necrosis and fibrin as well as the bacteria. This cellularity is of granulocytic leukocytes.
Stomach- mildly to moderately autolyzed. The above described bacteria can be identified within vessels of the submucosa and mucosa.
Diagnosis-
Multiple organs- bactermia
Liver- Multifocal moderate acute hepatitis
Skin- Multifocal acute erosive and ulcerative dermatitis
Comment- The cause of death in this frog is due to bacterial septicemia. This is most likely the cause of the clinical signs. It is difficult to determine where the portal of entry might be for the bacteria, I suspect it is through lesions in the skin. There are areas of the skin with ulcerations and erosions and large numbers of bacteria present as well as large numbers of the bacteria being present within lymphatics in the dermis. No other specific disease agent is recognized.
I have purchased Everclear to use 3ml of it to send the frog's feet to John Wood of Pisces-molecular in Colorado for chytrid fungus testing. The pathologist has not seen this fungus before and I believe this may be the described bacteria thus I will send the feet for testing as they have been maintained for that purpose.
I asked you if the frog had already been treated and you told me that there was no need to treat the frog not that it had already been treated for chytrid. Since I did not recieve a direct answer to my question I am testing to be sure. I also read the post here on fatfrogs where you stated that all of your frogs have been treated.
When I asked if a refund would be appropriate on the 14th of August and you said that you guaranteed live arrival only I was understandably upset.
This frog never ate in the one day that I had her. Her enviornment was sterilized and there was no toxicity stated as cause of death in the report. I did not cause the death of this frog she was ill prior to my purchasing her from you according to the necropsy results which clearly state bacterial septicemia. I have also researched and read one of the threads bearing similarity on this issue that you posted on talktothefrog.org. You stated that if an animal purchased from you died suddenly and the purchaser was not to blame that you would honor your guarantee and refund the money.
After much consideration of this issue I respectfully request a refund of the 85.00 for the cost of the frog as well as the 190.00 for the necropsy for a total of 275.00.
I have not included the costs of the chytrid testing which is 27.00 not including the shipping. The Everclear is not included as only a small portion is required for the test. I will let you know those totals as well and of course provide reciepts based upon your response to this message.
I believe that it is unprofessional to sell an ill animal whether previous knowledge is indicated or not. I believe that this matter should not be posted on the BOI or the many forums of which I am a member until after the situation is rectified. I believe that it is in your frogs best interest to have them examined by a Veterinarian prior to selling them to any other individuals as the Ad is on Kingsnake as of this day and they are likely to be infected with the same bacteria and shipping them may cause another tiny life to be lost needlessly.
If you wish to have copies of the paperwork in relation to this issue I will be glad to provide you with them. I prefer to send them via certified mail.
I look forward to your response.
Respectfully,
Kelly Brown
This is the initial thread that I posted on fatfrogs after recieving her. He states here that the frog is male. This is the only response that I had from him besides the message that live arrival is guaranteed only.
http://fatfrogs.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=7028
I posted a thread on fatfrogs to try and get a response as well;
http://fatfrogs.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=7395
I posted a thread on TTTF to ask other experienced keepers their thoughts and opinions on this issue.
http://talkto.thefrog.org/index.php?action=vthread&forum=4&topic=16933
As of today his Ad for these frogs is still on kingsnake. I do not know with any certainty if he bred this frog or purchased it from another source. He claims to breed them but refuses to show proof.
It is with the hopes that anyone planning on purchasing a frog from him will read this and change their minds or at least have an idea of what they are getting into.
I did not know about this forum until it was too late. If I had prior knowledge of the way that he conducts business he never would have had mine. He is fast to respond to positive feedback but obviously does not respond to anything negative.
I saw his pretty pictures on fatfrogs and since he is also a member there I felt confident that if anything happened he would rectify the problem. This frog was a replacement for an ornate frog that I purchased in June of this year. The ornate was DOA. He said he would send a replacement when the weather was right. I waited 2 months and got a very sick frog. I did not ask for a replacement after this frog died because I knew that something wasen't right. That is why the necropsy was done. I am also waiting for Chytrid Fungus test results and I will post those as well.
Whether he decides to do the right thing and repay me or continue to ignore me isn't the purpose. I did this for the principal.
Ed if you read this the principal balance for you is 275.00.
Forewarned is forearmed folks.
The frog died from bacterial septicemia. I am contacting the Pathologist to culture the bacteria. I have made several attempts to contact him and he has recieved my messages but will not respond. I offered him the opportunity to rectify the situation prior to my posting anything about it and he is not inclined to do so.
I did alot of research prior to the frog's arrival. I read many care sheets and got advice from other keepers. I was waiting on my porch for the frog and put her directly into a room temp dechlorinated soak. I took a couple pictures of her and left her alone to settle in. The temps were at the mid 80's on top of the terrarrium and mid 70's on the bottom. Humidity was 60%. She never ate it the 24 hours that I had her. The enclosure and it's contents were sterilized in a 10% bleach solution and rinsed and dried correctly. The enclosure aired out for 48 hours so there was no bleach odor. Paper towels for substrate to monitor excrement and maintain a sterile enviornment. I was told many times that this frog was a male but she was full of eggs at 2 1/2 svl.
This was her enclosure
This is her the day after I got her
This is a copy of an email that I sent to Ed Clark on Friday August 29, 2008.
Ed,
I submitted the remains of the Aussie whites tree frog that I got from you on the 13th of August. The one that died on the 14th. It was in fact a female as she had a large amount of eggs and not a male as I was told by you prior to the shipping. The necropsy was performed by Drury R. Reavill,DVM of the zoo/exotic pathology service in West Sacramento,CA
The results are as follows;
Kidney- The kidney is moderatly autolyzed. There are numerous small thin bacteria which are proliferating throughout the renal sections. Moderate numbers of them are confined to the capillary loops of the glomeruli although aggregates are also present within the interstitium
Spleen- moderately to severely autolyzed. It is also congested. The previously described bacteria can be identified with macrophages of the spleen. These are small punctate to short rod-shaped structures recognized within the cytoplasm.
Pancreas- severely autolyzed
Intestines- severely autolyzed
Possible Stomach- severely autolyzed
Lung- There are bacteria recognized within the capillaries of the faveoli.
Liver- mild multifocal areas of acute necrosis with fibrin deposition and the previously described bacteria. Granulocytic leukocytes are also identified although these are rare in number. The Liver is moderatly autolyzed.
Heart- The epicardium of the heart is supporting large numbers of the previously described bacteria.
Coelomic cavity fat pads- The previously described bacteria can be identified within some of the vascular spaces of the fat pads.
Skin- There are sections of the skin where there is extensive loss of the epithelium and large numbers of bacteria are proliferating throughout the areas with the epithelium as well as into the superficial dermis. There is also the subdermal lymph vessels and sacs containing the previously described bacteria and some cellular debris. Multifocally the epithelium is supporting an increased cellularity in areas where there is cell necrosis and fibrin as well as the bacteria. This cellularity is of granulocytic leukocytes.
Stomach- mildly to moderately autolyzed. The above described bacteria can be identified within vessels of the submucosa and mucosa.
Diagnosis-
Multiple organs- bactermia
Liver- Multifocal moderate acute hepatitis
Skin- Multifocal acute erosive and ulcerative dermatitis
Comment- The cause of death in this frog is due to bacterial septicemia. This is most likely the cause of the clinical signs. It is difficult to determine where the portal of entry might be for the bacteria, I suspect it is through lesions in the skin. There are areas of the skin with ulcerations and erosions and large numbers of bacteria present as well as large numbers of the bacteria being present within lymphatics in the dermis. No other specific disease agent is recognized.
I have purchased Everclear to use 3ml of it to send the frog's feet to John Wood of Pisces-molecular in Colorado for chytrid fungus testing. The pathologist has not seen this fungus before and I believe this may be the described bacteria thus I will send the feet for testing as they have been maintained for that purpose.
I asked you if the frog had already been treated and you told me that there was no need to treat the frog not that it had already been treated for chytrid. Since I did not recieve a direct answer to my question I am testing to be sure. I also read the post here on fatfrogs where you stated that all of your frogs have been treated.
When I asked if a refund would be appropriate on the 14th of August and you said that you guaranteed live arrival only I was understandably upset.
This frog never ate in the one day that I had her. Her enviornment was sterilized and there was no toxicity stated as cause of death in the report. I did not cause the death of this frog she was ill prior to my purchasing her from you according to the necropsy results which clearly state bacterial septicemia. I have also researched and read one of the threads bearing similarity on this issue that you posted on talktothefrog.org. You stated that if an animal purchased from you died suddenly and the purchaser was not to blame that you would honor your guarantee and refund the money.
After much consideration of this issue I respectfully request a refund of the 85.00 for the cost of the frog as well as the 190.00 for the necropsy for a total of 275.00.
I have not included the costs of the chytrid testing which is 27.00 not including the shipping. The Everclear is not included as only a small portion is required for the test. I will let you know those totals as well and of course provide reciepts based upon your response to this message.
I believe that it is unprofessional to sell an ill animal whether previous knowledge is indicated or not. I believe that this matter should not be posted on the BOI or the many forums of which I am a member until after the situation is rectified. I believe that it is in your frogs best interest to have them examined by a Veterinarian prior to selling them to any other individuals as the Ad is on Kingsnake as of this day and they are likely to be infected with the same bacteria and shipping them may cause another tiny life to be lost needlessly.
If you wish to have copies of the paperwork in relation to this issue I will be glad to provide you with them. I prefer to send them via certified mail.
I look forward to your response.
Respectfully,
Kelly Brown
This is the initial thread that I posted on fatfrogs after recieving her. He states here that the frog is male. This is the only response that I had from him besides the message that live arrival is guaranteed only.
http://fatfrogs.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=7028
I posted a thread on fatfrogs to try and get a response as well;
http://fatfrogs.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=7395
I posted a thread on TTTF to ask other experienced keepers their thoughts and opinions on this issue.
http://talkto.thefrog.org/index.php?action=vthread&forum=4&topic=16933
As of today his Ad for these frogs is still on kingsnake. I do not know with any certainty if he bred this frog or purchased it from another source. He claims to breed them but refuses to show proof.
It is with the hopes that anyone planning on purchasing a frog from him will read this and change their minds or at least have an idea of what they are getting into.
I did not know about this forum until it was too late. If I had prior knowledge of the way that he conducts business he never would have had mine. He is fast to respond to positive feedback but obviously does not respond to anything negative.
I saw his pretty pictures on fatfrogs and since he is also a member there I felt confident that if anything happened he would rectify the problem. This frog was a replacement for an ornate frog that I purchased in June of this year. The ornate was DOA. He said he would send a replacement when the weather was right. I waited 2 months and got a very sick frog. I did not ask for a replacement after this frog died because I knew that something wasen't right. That is why the necropsy was done. I am also waiting for Chytrid Fungus test results and I will post those as well.
Whether he decides to do the right thing and repay me or continue to ignore me isn't the purpose. I did this for the principal.
Ed if you read this the principal balance for you is 275.00.
Forewarned is forearmed folks.
