Bad Guy Embergeckos

[zetagecko]

Last November, I purchased a super giant sunglow male from James and was very excited about the prospects as I wanted a supergiant as my very first gecko into the hobby. The gecko was indicated to have been hatch 6/17/2011. (The photos of my geckos and relevant info have been taken off from his site) Its close to one year and thus far, my sunglow has not yet reached its 110 minimum for super giant or any where near close to even giant since it is only at 77 grams. The interesting thing is that on his site, there are part# that indicate SG or G but I noticed that his site has both SG and G under his super giant section. This led me to believe that there could have been a mix up of the gecko. When I emailed him that the SG and G would mean Super giant and Giant, he indicated to me that the g designation was an error on his part and assured me that the gecko is in fact a super giant. A few months later, I noticed that the gecko still has not been growing and I even went to the extent to showing a picture of the gecko to Ron Tremper. Ron himself looked at the gecko and said it is not a super giant... I sent email to james again and he still insisted to have the gecko grow up... and that Ron tremper doesnt know what he sold me. During the while, I was searching for a giant db and he ended trying to pass off a super raptor as a DB... Considering that the sunglow at 77grams has only 3 months left to the year that a super giant needs to grow to 110 super giant weight, I know that the sunglow is nowwhere near a super giant. I have waited to post this because I dont want to point any fingers at anyone and I want to make sure that the sunglow even has remotely a chance to grow to the size as promised. I have decided to move on and have gotten a true supergiant elsewhere but just wanted to let everyone who is in the market for a supergiant to be careful when in the market for super giants as I feel I have been deceived. Attached is my sunglow along with a tremper super giant at 114g ... and a picture of the super raptor listed as a giant db...

 

[ASH GECKOS]

I don't think he would purposely pass off a Super RAPTOR as a DB considering that Super RAPTORs are more expensive.

 

[kkiggins]

Those labels are best guesses. I'm not saying you're right, wrong or neither, but unless they are from SG X SG breedings, they are conjecture. Weights are a very poor way of determining genetics. I also bought a male in November from James; he was 65 grams and also hatched in June. He has not grown at all, but also did not eat much all winter. He's slowly gaining weight now, and I won't be a bit surprised if he ends up being a super giant. For now, I assume he's only a giant, based upon what I see in front of me. There are babies due to hatch from him soon, and those will tell me a heck of a lot more about his genetic makeup. It is well documented that giants will grow all the way through their second year. I don't agree with the weight "rules" that some people are now following. Those guidelines are based on animals in Ron's care, and there's just no way you can hold to that as hard and fast. There will always be fast growers, and slow growers, good eaters, and poor eaters, completely dependant on environmental factors such as temperature, photoperiod, and nutrition.

I agree with the premise of your post; don't trust everything you read, and DO YOUR HOMEWORK. That said, James has been great to me, with timely communication and multiple animal discounts. I also noticed that DB on his site. Bottom line, don't buy it if you can't be 100% certain. There are enough pictures to make up your own mind on that one. I don't think he's trying to mislead anyone.
I'm sorry that you felt mislead. To some extent, I did too, but also realize that the giant genetics are much more abstract than other traits, in that they aren't always going to be completely obvious.

 

[zetagecko]

The problem is that there was disclosure that father and mother both were sg....hence lies the dismay I have. As to the Db, turned super raptor, regardless of whether it's more expensive or not, the fundamental principle of misrepresentation is definitely present. Fortunately I did do my homework on the "Db" and asked around , stopping my purchase of that "Db"... However that does and can't explain away that either the breeder has no clue on what he is selling or simply he is making every effort to just moving his inventory... Either way, a breeder should have a higher responsibility than to just move product and act as an ambassador to this hobby. This experience has in turn dampened my enthusiasm for the hobby. Had it not been for others who have been exemplary and honorable in providing me with what I truly wanted , I would have just given away those geckos and walked away from this hobby in disgust... As a human being, I have always preferred to give people the benefit of the doubt, and in return most of the time, I have been repaid with life long friendships and business partners. Sad to say, I would have been a good and loyal customer to him had this not happened.

 

[kkiggins]

The problem is that there was disclosure that father and mother both were sg....hence lies the dismay I have. As to the Db, turned super raptor, regardless of whether it's more expensive or not, the fundamental principle of misrepresentation is definitely present. Fortunately I did do my homework on the "Db" and asked around , stopping my purchase of that "Db"... However that does and can't explain away that either the breeder has no clue on what he is selling or simply he is making every effort to just moving his inventory... Either way, a breeder should have a higher responsibility than to just move product and act as an ambassador to this hobby. This experience has in turn dampened my enthusiasm for the hobby. Had it not been for others who have been exemplary and honorable in providing me with what I truly wanted , I would have just given away those geckos and walked away from this hobby in disgust... As a human being, I have always preferred to give people the benefit of the doubt, and in return most of the time, I have been repaid with life long friendships and business partners. Sad to say, I would have been a good and loyal customer to him had this not happened.

Understood, and well said. Only James can defend himself as to how he represents his animals.

I agree about the integrity of the hobby, which is why I will chime in every time I see something posted relating to giants. They are what I specialize in, and I will make every effort to continue learning everything I can about them, and in turn making sure that information is conveyed as accurately as possible. Misrepresentation is a really big problem that I want to help prevent.

 

[ASH GECKOS]

One more question, how can you tell it is a Super RAPTOR and not a DB? Also you should have waited until the year mark to at least post this on here, what happens now if it gets to 110 grams? Or if it gets to 109, does that make it just a Giant to you then? A lot of people over feed their Giants and SGs just to make them grow early, that doesn't mean that it won't be a gain the weight later. I have a Giant that didn't reach weight in the "one year time frame" but there is no doubt that he is a Giant. Rushing genetics can be a bad thing at times. I am not try to attck you, just saying nature will always take its own course.

 

[KelliH]

The thing is that no one can determine how big a gecko is going to get upon reaching adulthood. Giant genetics don't work the way they are purported to. It is NOT a co-dom trait. I would never buy a Giant until it is at it's adult size. I know too many people that have purchased "5 month old 60 grams" geckos as "Giants" and they end up being 70 grams as adults.

 

[kkiggins]

It has been proven co-dominant time and time again.

 

[KelliH]

It has been proven co-dominant time and time again.

If it were a true co-dom trait, why is it that "Super Giant" x "Super Giant" does not always produce "Super Giant"?

Breeding big geckos together produces big geckos, just like breeding smaller geckos together produces small geckos.

 

[KelliH]

My point is do your research and be aware that when you buy a "Super Giant" as a youngster there is an excellent chance that it will never reach the 110 gram minimum or whatever weight supposedly gives it that "SG" distinction.

 

[zetagecko]

One more question, how can you tell it is a Super RAPTOR and not a DB? Also you should have waited until the year mark to at least post this on here, what happens now if it gets to 110 grams? Or if it gets to 109, does that make it just a Giant to you then? A lot of people over feed their Giants and SGs just to make them grow early, that doesn't mean that it won't be a gain the weight later. I have a Giant that didn't reach weight in the "one year time frame" but there is no doubt that he is a Giant. Rushing genetics can be a bad thing at times. I am not try to attck you, just saying nature will always take its own course.

I am going off what ron tremper determined for me based on pics off the site on the DB and the SG... I would imagine he should have some experience on this determination... So unless either Ron was trying to sell me another gecko(which he didnt) or he just had a bone to pick with James( his customer as well) I dont see why his observations off my pictures would be questionable.. Come on guys, the guy who determined it for me found the gene and essentially developed a majority of the strains for these geckos.. If he says its not an SG, Im inclined to believe him... As to waiting for the year mark, based on its growth rate right which is virtually nil, it will not grow to any where near a giant or even super giant within 2 months which is what is left to be a year, let alone another half a year... And as to enviroment i provided, all other geckos i have either maintained their weight or gained weight. They are all in the same area with same conditions...

 

[kkiggins]

Please PM me if you would like to discuss SG genetics more, I would like to say a few things that are not relevant to this thread with regard to your dissatisfaction.

Bottom line, you feel disserviced. Did you email James to let him know about this thread? It is between you and him.

 

[ASH GECKOS]

For the DB or Super RAPTOR it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between the two by just looking at them, a few others as well. Ron even states that on his site.

As for the SG, you should inform ember gecko of your dissatisfaction and this threads as well. He should do something about it or at least give you an explanation that you would understand as to how the weights and sizes shouldn't really have a time frame. Or give you another one. I have a few large geckos that are not giants, but according to the so called weight limit they would be called giants. I also have a giant that took more than a year to reach his "90 gram" goal. Sometimes weight isn't the most important factor in determining the difference. Yes Ron knows his stuff, there's no doubt about that. But everything develops at it's own rate. I have two males from the same clutch that hatched on the same day and one won't get over 61 grams and the other is at 88 grams and both are perfectly healthy and have produced great babies for me. Point is no matter what we do or think we know, nature will always do what it wants to.

I hope that you and ember gecko work things out and come to an agreement that you both like. I know what it's like to neon the short end of the stick on both sides of the spectrum. Please let us know what comes of your transaction.

 

[GeckoBoa Reptiles]

Wanted to chime in a bit regarding the giant gene. I personally believe it is co-dom, but with a gene such as this that affects the size of geckos in a non definitive manner, it will always be difficult to prove. It's not like a giant comes out a different color or different pigment that allows for easy distinguishing. Anybody that has ever bred geckos knows you will get a varying range of sizes naturally. Now, however this can come down to genetics, eating patterns, heat, and other varying factors which were previously mentioned. I have hatched geckos that just don't get very big at all and some that grow to "giant sizes". Now does this mean they are giants? Well for the responsible breeder this is absolutely a big NO! I think a lot of people coming into this hobby, whether from ignorance or to make a buck will try to pass their own large overfed "giant geckos" as the same gene as the original RT giant gene. This obviously can cause problems if the real giant gene is co dominant. Some of these "giants" we see out there could be a combination of these possible polygenic giants lines and the real giant gene. In this situation we would understandably see very big differences in size. Now even with the true giants it is definitely possible to see a wide varying of sizes. First of all it's commonly known that most reptiles grow according to how much you feed them. When we pump worms into these animals non stop for years they will obviously grow to their maximum potential. This is why the one year weight rule is completely bogus(IMO). Leopard geckos will live longer and be better breeders if fed slowly and steadily. Just think about how they eat in the wild. I don't imagine they come across a bowl of mealworms around every corner in the desert. They eat sparingly and even go weeks and even months without food. I am not saying to do this but there is always a balance. My giants that I have bred have displayed growth and lengths very similar to what a co dom gene should produce. Yes there are exceptions here and there which is expected but I do get very similar averages to co dom genes predicted outcomes. I also know that most of the large breeders that work extensively with giants feel the same way. Again I am not saying that I am always right but through observation and listening to others I feel co dom is the most accurate way to describe this gene. Also you really see the difference with a large super giant. To me the size difference(and not just weight) is just too drastic to be a regular polygenic morph. There is definitely something more going on there. Regardless of how the gene is carried it makes for one impressive gecko, which I doubt people will argue.

As far as the Super Raptor goes I would give James the benefit of the doubt and say he probably made a typo as a super raptor and DB are fairly easy to tell the difference between. He would have also needed both parents carrying the snow gene so it's hard to believe he would have made that big of a mistake identifying this morph.

Now by looking at the pictures of Dominic's gecko purchased as a super giant I would say it looks just giant. Super giants are typically just so long and lanky that it's usually easy to distinguish them apart. I don't know James' procedures but as for myself I will never sell a gecko as a SG that is 50% chance SG even if it reaches the larger sizes. I will suggest that it is probably a super giant to the customer, but will never sell it as a definite. Now if he bred proven SG to SG then that is another story. I do know that James' stock came from RT so he definitely is selling legitimate giants so I wouldn't know what happened here.

From a few emails, meeting him in person, and from what other people have told me I get the impression that James is a honest businessman and would guess that this might be either a fluke or a honest mistake.

 

[zetagecko]

I think I usually give people the benefit of the doubt as well. But, in this case I dont believe I have been dealt with honestly... especially when "mistakes" were associated with both geckos... As to Ron's email to me in determining the DB. I checked back on his email to me and He actually said it was a ablino mac snow and not a super raptor... Regardless, it was not a DB that I requested. Even my email correspondence with breeder in question he indicated Diablo... It was not til I confronted him and indicated I had Ron tremper look at the gecko that he changed to saying it was a snow with "diablo traits"... Even then his site never disclosed that. So, the typo or mistake theory simply does not wash. Second, the Sunglow G designation he had on the site clearly meant it was a giant but he had indicated it was a mistake and that it was a sg... But clearly from what other breeders have seen from the pictures, this sunglow is not a super giant. Furthermore, ember also operates sams house of geckos, which means that they buy from many other gecko breeders and resells them on their site. So, I can understand perhaps why many would have doubts to my claim... But Im not here to interrupt any business, I am here to inform others who are less knowledgeable than breeders to make sure what they are buying is truly as stated and not grossly misrepresented or even have any room for fudging the truth. After spending $500 on questionable geckos, I would never want to have others have to keep a gecko that does not live up to expectations....

 

[zetagecko]

I just thought id revive and update the situation. Thus far after over a year of waiting for the so called growth beyond a year, the gecko has not grown and has stayed at 77, not even at giant weight. Just wanted to let people know this gecko was never a super giant and that it was passed off as a super giant.

 

[bmr1052]

What has ember gecko said/done about the situation?

 

[zetagecko]

original response was that the gecko was a super giant. and to wait it out til one year later... but in the interim, I was looking for a diablo blanco which he tried to pass something off as such. So, having Ron tremper look at the sunglow, it was not a supergiant... Now 1 year and 6 months later... still at 77g. A super giant it is not and buyer beware that the breeder's geckos are like a box of chocolates... you dont know what your are getting....

 

[bmr1052]

Thats what I'm asking, now that it has been over the year mark have you contacted them?

 

[zetagecko]

To do what? Tell them that they sold me a dud and hope to get another gecko to keep for another year to figure out AGAIN if he is telling me the truth? When 1 year and a half passes, you realize the truth is exactly how you suspect it to be, whats the point of contactig them again? The bottom line is if there was even a question in his mind of the gecko not being Super giant, dont sell it to me. The way I see it, my contact info is quite easy to obtain especially from his friends that are my family(yes somehow we are related). Really up to him to make things right especially since he insisted its an SG. The ball has always been in his court.