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Enclosures by Design

While the idea sounds good, as Wes, has said the bad guys would just opt out and continue business as usual. Also organizations require money. This would be passed on to the customer. This would allow the people outside the organization to charge a cheaper route, which gives more incentive for the customers that are victims of the scammers in the first place (you know the ones that follow the quick rich fads, and deals that are too good to be true).

Second, as a relative newbie to the reptile industry, I've had a TON of the more experienced vendors talk to me via shows and normal business giving insite on who to work with, who to watch out for. Seems they don't mind mentoring companies that do business on the up-and-up. This is also shown on this site as questions about how to solve customer service issues, shipping protocol etc are answered all the time.
 
..

The thing is, a lot of these people could be put in jail (in criminal cases), which would force them out of business, atleast temp, and maybe some of the people ripped off will get part of their money back. Apparently the police, humane society, or wildlife commission doesn't want to arrest people for having reptiles in horrific conditions, or for a lot of the fraud that goes on. They just seem to shun the idea that a reptile is worth their time or anyone else's money.

Is it policing? My thoughts are that the laws are already written. We can't enforce them, but a large organization can pressure the law to do what they're already getting paid to do anyway. But my personal feelings towards this is to protect the reptile personal pet industry as a whole, from other organizations that may be trying to ban reptiles in North America. It could also help out the smaller, less-known breeders.

One of the big things about having a sort of a mediator-type role is that, if a petshop is willing to listen to somone, they can give them advice on things that need to be changed, to make their petshop acceptable. If the petshop does take the advice, no police or bad media for the reptile industry.

As of right now, I am working with a petshop for this exact reason. After seeing the conditions of this place, I wrote them a letter, explaining what I saw there, as well as gave them advice on how to make conditions better. I've also explained to them that they could be facing criminal charges and heavy fines for animal negligence and that there would be volunteers inspecting his store atleast once a week, and that if any more complaints were made, he would be turned over to the authorities, with the reports I've had on him. Yes, I can do shops locally, but I can't inspect them all over the country, where thousands of horrific petshops just like this one could be either corrected or exposed.

Using set standards doesn't have to bully someone's pet shop or breeder facility. It's more of basic guidelines that one should already be taking, for the health of their animals. For example, you (hopefully) wouldn't wanna see 5 adult mali uromastix put in a 10 gallon aquarium, stuffed in a dark, cold room, in a petshop. That's something that's unacceptable. Even if the petshop's idea is "hey, it doesn't matter, cuz we'll have them sold in a few weeks anyway"

Every rule/guideline would be thought up and voted on by its members and could be changed by its members. There wouldn't be anyone that could "Veto" a vote/rule, because it would be an organization of equal alliance members.

What it would not do/be: It's not about boycotting or spreading bad stuff about a petshop or breeder just because that place of business isn't in the alliance. It's won't be about being in an "elite" club. Anyone who accepted the set standards and honored them would be welcomed. A person or business in the alliance would not have to do inspections or volunteer work, although it might be encouraged. People in the alliance would NOT have to pay any membership or renewal fees, even though donations would be accepted.

But you've made a good point, Daniel. It does require money, but I don't really see it being taken out on customers, by charging them more for their animals or supplies. That would be like a 711 saying "hey we're going to charge .20 cents more per item for a donation to hospice attic" or something. That's kind of a forced way to do business, even if the customer doesn't know it.
If a breeder or petshop felt that the organization was helping to protect the industry he/she was in, I wouldn't see any reason why that person wouldn't take money out of his personal spending money to help out.

The money could possibly be had by going to some of the larger-known breeders/dealers and ask them if they'll give the organization some free advertising, to solicit donations, maybe put a paypal donation link up. Also, if that person owned a petshop, they could just put a cup out for donations.

A lot of the expenses are almost non-existant now though. With the help of the internet, we no longer need postal mail for normal letters.. Just send an email. Also, there are egroups, which every member of the group basically can email and collaborate through them. That eleminates the need for buying excess printer cartridges, sending out thousands of letters, printing them out, stuffing thousands of envelopes.. It'll also save a lot of $ on long distance calls. Saves both time and money.

With digital cameras, we can take pics of any proof of negligence in petshops or whatever as well. No need to buy expensive polaroid film, etc.

So, all in all, I think it's the work that's the hardest issue to overcome. Just thought I'd clear a few things up. Thanks for the replies wes and daniel
 
I've started another thread HERE to continue this discussion.


Don't want to take the spotlight off of Enclosures By Design / Upstate Exotics / Moonlight Media until Kris can get his money back.
 
The whole ordeal Kris has had to go through is just shameful...
Why can the guy just not get what he paid for..? Sal & Alison.. you there..? It is so amazing when You (Sal and Alison) feel like you have been done wrong you come here, complain,, and gripe,, and whine,, and post and repost your side with details and all kinds of stuff,,, but a poor customer of yours wants something as simple as 1 enclosure and a tracking number showing it has been shipped,, and you cannot even get him that... you offer the refund of some of the purchase price,, and he can't get that either,,,
You Sal and Alison Suck! It is amazing to me how you can continue to screw people over and over and over,,,
Kris,, please file with Paypal,, and get your money back,, and run,, fast from a deal with Sal and Alison,, they are Scum bags,, and will never do you right,,,, Find a good company to do business with,, there are plenty out there who will do you right,,,
I hope you get your money back Kris,, as all of this is surely not worth it,,,
God luck Kris,,,
 
Just to keep everybody posted, still no word from Sal and Allison and my cage has not been delivered. I filed a complaint with paypal today and if that is insufficient to merit a response, I will pursue actoin through the buyer complaint system on KS. THanks for your support.

Kris
 
Regardless of what happens with PayPal, I would still strongly advise puruing every available action against Upstate. They have proven time and again that they don't have a clue as how to operate a business, whether it be remodeling, reptiles, or enclosures. As long as their victims continue to not pursue matters in the most aggressive manner possible, Sal and Allison are going to continue to pull the same crap over and over again.
 
As long as their victims continue to not pursue matters in the most aggressive manner possible, Sal and Allison are going to continue to pull the same crap over and over again.

I agree wholeheartedly with Ken. You would be doing a huge favor to many potential victims if you did as Ken suggested and pursued EVERY available action against them. I realize it is exhausting and time consuming, but that is what they are counting on. That you will get tired and give up.


Why do I have this sudden feeling of deja vu? :scatter:
 
Please excuse me kris

But in order to solicite some repsonse from these lowlifes i was cruising KS and ran across there add selling what would probably amount to near dead snakes or severly problematic snakes.I could not resist the the chance to try to get some sort of response from them as to there postion on this case . here is a copy ofthe email i have sent them over there add
how is you can repeatedly post here and have the time to do so but have NO time to get in touch with a ALREADY paid customer on one of your enclosures that you gave a Bogus tracking number over a weekago and seem to thank that since you have someones hard earned money and they have NOTHING from you that this is making a wise buisness decision?Personally from doing this you are only proving how poor of a buisness you actually are .i would as many have already suggested that NO one should buy from someone who has such POOR customer service! i do not expect any reply from you or your many delequent buisnesses Sal& Allison as it would probably take to much of your time screwing other unsuspecting customers out of there hard earned monies. You should be severaly ashamed of the buisness you conduct. And to be honest you should be very lucky that the person you have screwed over is being diligently subdued in there attempt to collect what is duely owed them ... BUT wait ... there making the proper chanells to do so now so if i were you i would be in the fast paced refund track .. but then again you have to wait on something .... if this was you being screwed you would no doubt be screaming how wrong you were done what a pathetic name of a buisness you have you can change the name guys BUT THE SPOTS are still yellow
 
Lame

Has anybody that has been screwed by these guys filed a complaint with KS? It is amazing to me that they are allowed to even advertise on that site.

Is it possible that KS knows the situation but is blinded by greed? Frankly it wouldn't totally surprise me since they have demonstrated complete moral ignorance on other issues, but I would think this issue hits a little closer to home.
 
problems with paypal

The thing about using debt cards and paypal is that it is harder to get your money back when something like this happens. I've been a seller on ebay for quite a few years now, and have had a paypal account for probably 3 years. Most buyers do pay for their stuff, including me, for things bought on ebay.

But there have been a few cases where people have manipulated the system, both buyer and seller. Basically, if there is a complaint, and paypal can't get their money back, even if they know it's rightfully your money, they won't compensate you for it. Luckily, I've only lost around $200 for fraudulent paypal claims since I've had paypal.

A good thing, if you have put in a complaint to paypal is, if upstate has the money in their account, it will be held so they can not spend it, until the investigation is done. An investigation through paypal could take up to 4 months. This will hopefully stress upstate out enough to tell paypal just to refund your money. If they don't have the money in there, they probably know not to take any more payments, because as soon as the full ammount of what you paid gets in there, it's locked up. So, upstate may have another paypal account made (which isn't hard to do), or they may say "hey, send a money order for it" to their other potential victims.

The good news, however, is that paypal usually sides with the buyer. So, the seller would atleast have to have a real tracking number or something to show proof of delivery. This fake number won't cut it. Paypal also has a minimum shipping time for items bought through their company. I believe it is two weeks, but I could be wrong.

One thing is for sure though. I know I'll never purchase anything from these guys.
 
.
A good thing, if you have put in a complaint to paypal is, if upstate has the money in their account, it will be held so they can not spend it, until the investigation is done. An investigation through paypal could take up to 4 months. This will hopefully stress upstate out enough to tell paypal just to refund your money. If they don't have the money in there, they probably know not to take any more payments, because as soon as the full ammount of what you paid gets in there, it's locked up. So, upstate may have another paypal account made (which isn't hard to do), or they may say "hey, send a money order for it" to their other potential victims.


Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Upstate say they were changing "banks"? I wonder if this could be because they are having this kind of trouble with their paypal account and were just switching bank accounts to get around it ?

:uhh:

As for KS, there has to be 3 complaints and then their account is suspended until all 3 are resolved. You can see for yourself, there are plenty of "notorious" and "infamous" entities that post there regularly. My guess is that either no one complains, not enough complain, or these "entities" space out the problems far enough that KS doesn't pay attention.
 
Just to keep everybody informed, I sent Sal and Alison a final email by responding to a KS ad posted today (funny how often they use the internet but never seem to have time to respond to me). I informed them that I will be pursuing a complaint through KS, which will require me to file with the FBI's internet fraud reporting service. I haven't been able to go through all that yet becase I'm at an academic conference this weekend, but plan on taking all the action legally within my reach tomorrow evening. If anybody has suggestions beyond the options listed on KS's page, I'd love to hear them.

In response to the questions about other vicitms pursuing the situation further, it seems to me that the problem is the non-cumulative nature of all the systems currently set up to deal with these situations. If three complaints aren't simultaneously pending, then it's hard to get posting privileges revoked, and once compensation is made (no matter how late that is), legal options start to sriously diminish. Sadly, I know that once my problem with Sal and Alison is resolved through whatever means, they will simply continue. I suppose that's where the BOI comes in. I know I won't be making any purchases in the future without checking it, and more folks should do the same.

Thanks

Kris
 
FYI, I still have not heard anything from Enclosures by Design. I just filed complaint with KS, and the FBI's Internet Fraud Complaint Center. The number for the official complaint is:

I03101219126477

I will keep you guys posted on developments.

Kris
 
It looks like my situation might finally be coming to a close. After filing my complaint, I very quickly got an email and a phone message that Sal will be sending a refund in the form of a money order via overnight mail, ostensibly to arrive tomorrow. A copy of the email I received:

QUOTE

Kris...

I'm sorry we have not been in touch. My mother passed away and we've been trying to wrap up loose ends here. I have the enclosure back here and I will send out a money order to you tomorrow refunding your money.

I apologize greatly for all the hassle and inconvenience this has
caused...we haven't been on top of emails with all that has been goingon, just trying to maintain what we could.

Once the money order is out tomorrow I will shoot you an email. My apologies once again.

Thanks!!!

QUOTE

I hope this will turn out in expeditious fashion. A couple major questions this email leaves hanging for me:

1) Why is the enclosure 'back here' if it was ostensibly shipped with a tracking number and all? Is this an admission that the story was false in the first place?

2) I find Upstate Exotics has an interesting interpretation of 'trying to maintain what we could.' I guess that means posting 17 ads on KS from Friday-Sunday before having time to email customres with outstanding complaints.

Overall, I'm relieved that this seems to be resolving itself, and I can now look into caging from more reputable source.

Thanks for your help.

Kris
 
Kris,

Well hopefully they will be refunding your money as they state but I personally would not hold my breath. Look for example how long it took them to refund the money to Tony (in fact they never did refund it. HE had to have his bank reverse the charges). Also if they are planning on sending the money order out today via the mail that won't be happening as today is a Federal Holiday. I would ensure that they are sending the money order out via one of the other overnight carriers which are open for normal business today. It is definitely strange how they have been unable to answer your e-mails but sure had the time and ability to post ads and more than likely answer e-mails from other customers that are new to them.

Everything about Upstate Exotics smells to high heaven to me (and probably everyone else). It really pisses me off that they continue to play these games and are allowed to continue in business. Over a week ago they "dropped the cage off at the shipper" HA! just another line of their BS that is getting so deep. Kris please do not let up on these people. If the money order is not on your doorstep tomorrow contact the FBI, Kingsnake, and everyone else once again and do not let them breathe.
 
Kris,

I hope it gets resolved quickly. I find those little inconsistencies (the enclosure suddenly being back there, having time to post animals for sale, etc.) quite disturbing as well. The truth is, I don't think when it comes to Sal & Allison you'll ever really KNOW the truth, and that's my opinion whether you're talking about reptiles, enclosures, or web design.

I would leave the complaint standing until you've received certified funds.

Good luck!
 
The first thought that came to mind when I heard that Sal's mom died is that- well they've used every other excuse it's time to pull out the dead family member one. If it's true then cutting them a little slack is warrented however, I have serious doubts about ANYTHING they say.

Kris, make sure, get it in an email if you can, that they are refunding the FULL purchase price of the cage you ordered. It would not surprise me one bit to find out they gave you a refund MINUS shipping charges.

I hope you get back the whole thing.

Wes Pollock
 
I know all too well what most people here think of Sal and Alison. Although I am inclined to believe some of it, I do not believe all of it, and think through personal conversations that they were and still are trying to change things around. That is neither here nor there though.
I came on to say, that Wes, I think you are way out of line to even suggest that someone would use the passing of their MOTHER for an excuse.
I understand that people are angry at them, I understand that business is business, and I definitely know they have made some major mistakes, but that was way out of line.
Unless YOU can post proof that in fact she did NOT pass, don't even go there.
 
We all have opinions. Some are valid, some are not. These two, sal and alison, have used a great many excuses to get out of refunds, shipping incorrect snakes, shipping sick snakes, business partners. being theives and being stolen from, and the list just goes on and on.

I do not find it out of line to suspect them of using yet another excuse, one disigned to elicit the exact responce that you have just shown Rozann, such as a family member dying to get out of meeting their responsibilities. Not out of line one tiny bit for them.

It is not for me to prove that sal's mother did in fact die as I have not said she didn't. It is within the realm of possibility that she did. It is, however, a VERY large realm and I am suspicious of ANYTHING either of those two say.

Personally, cold as it sounds, it makes no difference to me whether or not sal's mom is dead. If she is in fact deceased, then I am in fact sorry for his loss. But without concrete eveidence of her passing, coroners report, obituary, someone who's word has some value to back it up, I will continue to doubt.

They have brought this on themselves 100%.

So Rozann, you do the research, find out if she's really dead, post some acceptable proof, YOU I would believe. If it's that important to you, do the footwork to find out. You can continue to give the benefit of the doubt as long as you like, it worked well with gubitz didn't it, I have passed my doubt limit with upchuck long ago.

Wes Pollock
 
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