**Enigma Neurological Problems** not to be bred?

[MicroZooKits]

A lot of you already know about the Engima "neurological defect" and what it looks like....

For those who don't....

The ENIGMAS also can display a physical defect in the form of shaking, spinning and/or head arching. The exact reason for this behavior is still largely unknown, but it is seen to a lesser degree in young whereby only one parent is an ENIGMA. ENIGMAS bred to each other may amplify this problem. Some ENIGMAS do not display any problems whatsoever while others reveal abnormal movements only when they are disturbed.

It is possible that this problem can be bred out of this unique morph over time, but as seen in Spider ball pythons, it may be something that will always be present and not an overall health risk.

I had just hatched my first baby leos from an Enigma mom x SHTCTB dad and from the video you can see one of the babies clearly has the "enigma defect". Now the mother Enigma has the same defect, but to a lesser degree. I found out about it when I did research concerning why she turned her head and did a 180 every time I lifted her humid hide. In her case though, the defect is only noticeable when she is startled or feels uncomfortable. Other then that she acts just like a regular gecko. When I first got her home last year I thought it was related to her maybe being in a deli cup for so long at the show that she was just trying to turn herself around. I figured once she realized she didn't have to do that anymore because she was free it'd stop. That's when I found out about the "enigma defect".

But what I understood was that it was part of the enigma gene in general, and some just displayed it more then others. (as with the enigma pattern)
Today I was told this is not the case, and that enigmas either had the "defect" or they didn't and that it wasn't always present. I was also told that the defect comes from breeding and enigma to another enigma and that even generations down the line if your geckos bloodline has 2 enigma parents in there somewhere then you're stuck with the defect gene in every enigma produced from that bloodline. Meaning that the enigmas that have the defect come from bloodlines that were once enigma x enigma and the bloodline shouldn't be continued at all.

Summary...

If an enigma has the neurological defect it comes from a tainted bloodline and shouldn't be bred for risk of passing on the defect.
But that this is not the case with all enigmas as long as they don't have two enigma parents somewhere in their family tree.

So my question is, Are enigmas with the defect doomed as breeders?
Should we not breed them for fear of continuing the defect?

 

[KelliH]

The "defect" is a flaw in the cerebellum of the animal. Whatever the gene is that causes the Enigma to look the way it does also causes this flaw. It has nothing to do with breeding Enigma to Enigma. The cerebellum is the part of the brain that controls perception (the ability to judge distance) and balance. The issues vary from gecko to gecko, and in most Enigmas it manifests itself very subtly. In some of them it is more outwardly apparent. You can compare the Enigma with the Spider Ball Python, which has similar issues that are probably resulting from the same cerebellum flaw. The issues do not keep the geckos from eating and growing normally at all.

 

[MicroZooKits]

So that would mean that the enigma mutation in general caused the disorder and that ALL enigmas possess this disorder just to different intensity values. Which would explain why breeding two enigmas together increases the chance of the offspring's value being more intense because you have two parent values contributing instead of one.

For example if Parent A has a defect value of 20/100 while parent B has a defect value of 32/100 the offspring are more likely to have a higher ratio themselves then say only one parent carrying a 20/100 defect value?

(1/100 being not noticeable while 100/100 would be a gecko that can't even function)

So would an enigma with let's say a defect value of 10/100 be able to produce offspring with a higher value even if bred to a non enigma?

 

[Mokele]

Honestly, any line that shows a neurological defect should be terminated, immediately. A trip to the freezer is probably excessive, but at the very least neither of the parents should be bred again, ever, even to different animals. There are several possible genetic mechanisms for such defects, but none of them are good, and responsible breeding means doing your part of remove animals carrying defective genes from the gene pool.

 

[MicroZooKits]

Honestly, any line that shows a neurological defect should be terminated, immediately. A trip to the freezer is probably excessive, but at the very least neither of the parents should be bred again, ever, even to different animals. There are several possible genetic mechanisms for such defects, but none of them are good, and responsible breeding means doing your part of remove animals carrying defective genes from the gene pool.

And I totally agree with you.
If someone before me would've thought the same way, I probably wouldn't be going through this right now. I just examined the baby with the defect, and even without stress he is barely able to walk on his front legs. Head sways and he looks drunk as all heck. If I don't see any signs of improvement in the next few weeks he might have to take that trip. I don't really want him to have to go through life unable to care for himself, or risk some clown trying to breed him for any reason at all. On top of that I have to figure out what to do with his mom as she is one of my favorite geckos but I don't have the time to care for geckos outside of the colonies.

 

[Lucille]

Poor little guy. I understand that some critters are born defective, but I agree that we should do the best we can to breed and produce healthy critters.

 

[KelliH]

Honestly, any line that shows a neurological defect should be terminated, immediately. A trip to the freezer is probably excessive, but at the very least neither of the parents should be bred again, ever, even to different animals. There are several possible genetic mechanisms for such defects, but none of them are good, and responsible breeding means doing your part of remove animals carrying defective genes from the gene pool.

It's really shoulda coulda woulda with the Enigmas (and the Spider Balls) at this point. They're out there, and I think that it's really up to each individual whether they choose to work with them or not.

 

[KelliH]

So that would mean that the enigma mutation in general caused the disorder and that ALL enigmas possess this disorder just to different intensity values. Which would explain why breeding two enigmas together increases the chance of the offspring's value being more intense because you have two parent values contributing instead of one.

For example if Parent A has a defect value of 20/100 while parent B has a defect value of 32/100 the offspring are more likely to have a higher ratio themselves then say only one parent carrying a 20/100 defect value?

(1/100 being not noticeable while 100/100 would be a gecko that can't even function)

So would an enigma with let's say a defect value of 10/100 be able to produce offspring with a higher value even if bred to a non enigma?

It really doesn't work that way though. I've done as much outcrossing as anyone with the Enigmas (and basically everyone that has them outcrosses as it is a dominant gene) and it's not a matter of not breeding Enigma to Enigma or breeding Enigmas that had two Enigma grandparents. Most Enigmas only show very subtle signs of any sort of issues, but there are some that will be more affected. Some that hatch with noticeable issues seem to "grow out of it" which may just be the brains way of compensating for the vestibular difficulties. Periods of stress (breeding, change of environment etc.) seem to cause these symptoms to increase as well, but many times when the stressful period is over the animals will begin behaving more normally. It's not understood yet exactly what an Enigma really is genetically, but I have geckos being studied now (they have been for more than 6 months) by one of the best vet programs in the country. Full results will be posted as soon as I have them.

 

[Mokele]

A plausible hypothesis a friend of mine advanced was that it's due to abnormalities in neural crest cells.

Neural crest cells are a specialized form of developmental cells unique to chordates. Unlike other cell lines which develop in fairly straightforward, position dependent ways (endoderm becomes the gut tube, ectoderm becomes the skin, neural tube becomes the brain and spinal cord, etc.), neural crest cells migrate all over the embryo, developing into all sorts of bizarre and seemingly random structures, such as teeth, inner ear, major cardiac vessels, glands, and melanocytes, the pigmented cells of the skin.

It's possible that the underlying cause of some pattern variants is altered neural crest cell migration, resulting in different distributions of pigment, but with a 'side-effect' of also altering some other migrations and developments, such as the development of the inner ear.

Of course, it's merely a plausible hypothesis, and since I'm not an embryologist by any stretch, it'll have to await testing by someone with a more appropriate skill set.

 

[MicroZooKits]

That would make sense though, especially if both the crest cell migrations derived from the original mutated sector or something

 

[KelliH]

A plausible hypothesis a friend of mine advanced was that it's due to abnormalities in neural crest cells.

Neural crest cells are a specialized form of developmental cells unique to chordates. Unlike other cell lines which develop in fairly straightforward, position dependent ways (endoderm becomes the gut tube, ectoderm becomes the skin, neural tube becomes the brain and spinal cord, etc.), neural crest cells migrate all over the embryo, developing into all sorts of bizarre and seemingly random structures, such as teeth, inner ear, major cardiac vessels, glands, and melanocytes, the pigmented cells of the skin.

It's possible that the underlying cause of some pattern variants is altered neural crest cell migration, resulting in different distributions of pigment, but with a 'side-effect' of also altering some other migrations and developments, such as the development of the inner ear.

Of course, it's merely a plausible hypothesis, and since I'm not an embryologist by any stretch, it'll have to await testing by someone with a more appropriate skill set.

That's an excellent theory. The testing we are involved in is still in the preliminary stages. Once I get the full write up (which could be several months or longer) I will post it here and on Gecko Forums.

 

[geckogrl6]

Interestingly, I have had a leo for years now who exhibits several of these traits. In fact, when the enigmas came out I remarked to myself on the similar appearance. I have long referred to this female as "the neurotic" and have determined through observation that her behavior is neurological, and not a vision defect. she is VERY pooor at striking, consistently overshooting, undershooting, making rolling strikes, where she strikes and does a croc death roll at the same time, spins, is easily spooked, and is extremely difficult to handle due to her severe balance problems and her tendency to walk of the edge unalarmed. this is the first I've really heard on the ENIGMA defect, are these roughly the same symptoms? If so, can I tell visually if she is a pre-enigma?

 

[KelliH]

Interestingly, I have had a leo for years now who exhibits several of these traits. In fact, when the enigmas came out I remarked to myself on the similar appearance. I have long referred to this female as "the neurotic" and have determined through observation that her behavior is neurological, and not a vision defect. she is VERY pooor at striking, consistently overshooting, undershooting, making rolling strikes, where she strikes and does a croc death roll at the same time, spins, is easily spooked, and is extremely difficult to handle due to her severe balance problems and her tendency to walk of the edge unalarmed. this is the first I've really heard on the ENIGMA defect, are these roughly the same symptoms? If so, can I tell visually if she is a pre-enigma?

I'm unsure as to what you mean by pre-enigma, but if you can either post a photo of her here or email it to [email protected] I would be happy to give you my opinion as to whether I think she's an Enigma or not.

 

[geckogrl6]

Thanks Kelli! I actually went and looked at bunch of pics of the ENIGMAs online right after I posted. Most of the ones online are showing triats like RAPTOR and albinos, but I did see a couple hets that look something like her. I have found an old pic- posted below. In person, she is much duller, and I really did not notice the striking color variations until I snapped some pics. She has also always been slender and super-light. She is active and has a healthy tail, appetite, poos, etc., but she has NEVER been bulky. Is that something people are seeing in the enigmas too?

 

[KelliH]

She's a pretty girl! I would say she is probably not an Enigma, but just for curiosity, did you get her as a youngster or was she already an adult? Reason I'm asking is that young Enigmas normally don't have much spotting on the tails, and as hatchlings their tails are almost completely white.

Some Enigmas are more slender and some are bulky and fat.

 

[Ed Clark]

Cull, Cull, Cull with this morph and you will have strong robust Enigmas.

 

[KelliH]

Have you produced many Enigmas, Ed? I thought you buy yours from another breeder?

 

[Ed Clark]

Have you produced many Enigmas, Ed? I thought you buy yours from another breeder?

I have, bought my core breeders.

 

[Gary O]

My Super Snow Enigma Male tends to be thinner then my other male breeders. He has 7 baby eggs he has fathered also.

The enigma problems I say is like the spider problem. I was looking at a great looking Enigma Het Raptor from a guy. He said the enigma had no issues. I asked to hold it and it spun in my hand. He said it never did that before.

I think once they get stressed a bit some will show more then others. But I have only delt with a hand full myself.

I will be hatching around maybe 20 or so enigmas this year. Most will have other traits in them. Like codom snow. I have not seen my male show any of thebad traits at all. But this does not mean that he will not produce the traits IMO. We shall see.

On a side note. I seen a Tremper albino that was a sib to an enigma spin about a month ago at a show...............

 

[Mokele]

Cull, Cull, Cull with this morph and you will have strong robust Enigmas.

Not to be pessimistic, but you cannot be *sure* that culling will work - many genes have multiple effects through a variety of mechanisms, and can even be processed into different proteins by exon splicing. While some defects in morphs truly are the result of unrelated genes that got 'dragged along for the ride', and thus amenable to culling, other defects are intrinsic to the morph.

For instance, albino animals *all* have vision problems, and this cannot be corrected or culled out, because the cause of the problem is albinism itself (specifically the lack of melanin in the retinal pigment epithelium, a thin tissue layer regulating light transmission in the eye). It's not exactly fatal in this case, but the point is that there are some problems culling cannot solve.

I'm not saying don't try, but one should be aware that, if culling seems to offer no results after extensive effort, it may simply not be possible to cull the trait out.